meat man

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spaniel said:
I accept the risk that some may find this too clinical and possibly graphic......can I ask why the bullet is considered better for the horse. By this I mean in what ways do the physical actions of each method affect the animal involved.
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I dont think its the physical aspect that makes it better. For many horses the vet is someone to be wary around.
Having never met the knackerman before, and not knowing what the gun is for, the horse is dead before the noise of the shot ends.
I had my oap mini shot earlier this year. Total phobic where needles are concerned, so shooting was the only kind option for him.
 
Over2You said:
I haven't misunderstood the OP. She wants to slaughter a horse because he could turnout to be vicious mindless killer.

I don't happen to agree with abattoirs and don't eat meat. My doctor tells me I'm healthier than meat eaters as I don't have animal fat clogging up my arteries. The last IQ test I did scored 120. That makes me stupid, does it?
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Who put another ten pence in you??? please ask them to stop:p
 
Over2You said:
I haven't misunderstood the OP. She wants to slaughter a horse because he could turnout to be vicious mindless killer.

I don't happen to agree with abattoirs and don't eat meat. My doctor tells me I'm healthier than meat eaters as I don't have animal fat clogging up my arteries. The last IQ test I did scored 120. That makes me stupid, does it?
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could????????????????????????????
 
Over2You said:
I haven't misunderstood the OP. She wants to slaughter a horse because he could turnout to be vicious mindless killer.

I don't happen to agree with abattoirs and don't eat meat. My doctor tells me I'm healthier than meat eaters as I don't have animal fat clogging up my arteries. The last IQ test I did scored 120. That makes me stupid, does it?
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My IQ rating (last time I did one) was 153.

That means I'm cleverer than you, so therefore I'm right & you're wrong :D
 
Over2You said:
I haven't misunderstood the OP. She wants to slaughter a horse because he could turnout to be vicious mindless killer.

I don't happen to agree with abattoirs and don't eat meat. My doctor tells me I'm healthier than meat eaters as I don't have animal fat clogging up my arteries. The last IQ test I did scored 120. That makes me stupid, does it?
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No, the OP stated the horse was dangerous (but who are we to argue, as stated before - it really is none of our business).

Being a non meat eater is your choice, I wouldn't judge you on that. And as for your intelligence score - clearly you are not stupid, just decidely average.

Now - hopefully you'll see the question I asked several pages back and give me your thoughts.
 
bonny said:
I don't think it comes down to an argument of injection vs shooting but what matters is the experience of whoever is doing it. If you choose your vet then ask how many horses he has pts and then consider that for a knacker man it's his job, day in day out and think which one is skilled at what they do.
The only horse that I've seen shot by a vet suffered immensely and I would rather wait for a knacker man than call out a vet if faced with a similar emergency.
On the other hand I've seen and held alot of horses for knackermen and all of them had a quick and hopefully painless death.
People need to be realistic, it's part of owning horses that they go first......
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personally i like mide injected n crem after,but i do prsonally know 2 registerd knacker men if your midlands based theres bob walker 07702117742 he shots for 120 quick n efficient job over in seconds ,he will return ashes at a cost ,if your shropshire based andy hodson07776154384 will collect n return ashes if you want .both do the job there n then quick efficient experienced at there jobs,both also collect after a vet has pts n can return ashes
 
bonny said:
I don't think it comes down to an argument of injection vs shooting but what matters is the experience of whoever is doing it. If you choose your vet then ask how many horses he has pts and then consider that for a knacker man it's his job, day in day out and think which one is skilled at what they do.
The only horse that I've seen shot by a vet suffered immensely and I would rather wait for a knacker man than call out a vet if faced with a similar emergency.
On the other hand I've seen and held alot of horses for knackermen and all of them had a quick and hopefully painless death.
People need to be realistic, it's part of owning horses that they go first......
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Quoted because it's worthy of repeating, & is also very very true.
 
zebedee said:
Quoted because it was worth repeating.



You forgot the bit about having to break its legs if rigour mortis has set in to get it out of the door.........
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It is a bugger if they 'go' while still in their box...but.....!
Ive had a few who, for various reasons, have done just that. The answer to the dilema is-as soon as they have 'gone', tie their legs together at fetlock level. All four together, tightley. They wont feel it. When its time to remove them, they can be easily manouvered out of the door-all you have to do is hoick them up onto their back or at an angle where the feet pass through the door. Its not a very nice subject but it is one that has to be confronted. The hardest part is taking their shoes off! This is required by the rendering plants as the shoes bugger up their machinary. I pay an insurance of 60 euro (yearly) to the local rendering plant which allows me to 'render' any fallen stock 'free' against 120 euro per head if Im not 'insured'. I take my 60 euro to them personally!
 
zebedee said:
I was annoyed with my final result, as another 2 points & I'd have been in the genius plus bracket instead of just genius :D
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Girls, please - my last testing only gave me a score of 129 - which I too was very disappointed with.

You make me feel very inferior..........
 
What is the best way with a needle phobic, headshy horse (who is wary of strangers/men)? Genuine question because I have one and he has always been that way over the years, the minute a vet or farrier turns up he is off to the back of his box. Don't get me wrong, if I am there usually with some persuasion and moving about he will eventually stand for the Farrier but his annual vacs are a dance about moment, he doesn't like strangers going to touch his face, ears, neck etc. It has often run through my head that unless we are extremely lucky and he dies naturally then I just know it will be difficult for him, not a nice thought for a horse we adore.
 
Damn. I've just realised all the stuff saying how brilliant I am is on page 25 of god knows how many pages the eventual total will be.
Hardly anyone will see them :mad::mad::mad: ;)
 
Tormenta said:
What is the best way with a needle phobic, headshy horse (who is wary of strangers/men)? Genuine question because I have one and he has always been that way over the years, the minute a vet or farrier turns up he is off to the back of his box. Don't get me wrong, if I am there usually with some persuasion and moving about he will eventually stand for the Farrier but his annual vacs are a dance about moment, he doesn't like strangers going to touch his face, ears, neck etc. It has often run through my head that unless we are extremely lucky and he dies naturally then I just know it will be difficult for him, not a nice thought for a horse we adore.
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There was a post a while ago entitled 'How to shoot a headshy horse' .
Went on for almost as long as this one has. Still didn't make the H & H top five topics though!

Here it is http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=229518&highlight=shoot+headshy+horse
 
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From my side this whole topic has been very thought provoking to me and as much as I try to ignore this thread and sit on my hands to refrain from posting I keep reading it as I have never really given much thought to having my own horse shot as a method of PTS. As I would never ever want this for her and therefore she will be PTS by injection at home with me at her side unless of course there is god forbid an emergency that dictates otherwise. It’s all about personal choice and we maybe need to remember that peeps. However I do think that a bit of sensitivity from BOTH sides of the fence wouldn’t have gone amiss in some of the responses to this thread.

In my humble opinion there is no real difference between having a horse shot by a knackerman, the hunt OR at an abattoir. The method used is exactly the same! So the horse has travel to an abattoir and possibly to the hunt but that is no different to transporting a horse for any other reason, of which no one would bat an eye lid. I think because there is financial gain to be made from your horses death by taking it to an abattoir that causes it to be viewed so negatively and can be viewed as cold hearted and callous, but is it….really? and also the general feeling that horses and abattoirs are very rarely heard in the same sentence here in the UK.

I have seen the video footage from the UK abattoir (cant remember if its Turners or Potters) showing the little grey pony shot and I have to say its done professionally and cleanly and is instant, no one who has seen the footage can surely deny that?

My choice of injection for my old girl when the time comes is based on the fact I have had the misfortune to witness a horse being shot when I was a teenager and the first bullet did not kill the horse so he had to be shot again. I will never ever forget the sounds that horse made as he was initially shot, for me that made my mind up that I would never allow for my mare to be PTS via bullet. It’s horrible to see/hear and is brutal, yes it may be instant BUT it’s still a brutal method of dispatch.

As for injection being kinder to the owners I tend to disagree on the whole but maybe not so much in previous years, however I know that these days a lot of vets use a modern drug to euthanise that is very very quick acting and doesn’t require vials and vials of the stuff to be pumped into the horse. My last two veterinary practices would not use the gun as a method of putting to sleep only injecting as does the new state of the art/modern equine veterinary practice I have now just joined. As a lot of horses are sedated prior to being shot, they are so out of it that inserting a catheter is quite stress free really.

Of course my view for my mares ending is based on the sheer love and bond I have with her, I have been lucky enough to share my life with her for nearly twenty years, she is my best friend and I owe her so much, she owes me NOTHING not a bean! and for that fact alone when its her time to pass on, I will make sure its as comfortable, familiar and stress free as possible. Will I find it hard to be there, hell yes! I have no doubt it will be the hardest thing I will ever have to face but I will make myself be there for her final moments and she will know right up to the last second how much she was loved and she will feel my familiar presence to end very end, make no mistake it will be my worst nightmare come true but it’s the very least I can do and it is the final act of love I can show her.

I am also aware that once she is gone and only her body remain its not really her anymore, it's her spirit, character and personality that makes her who she is. So I do understand those that don’t chose to bury or cremate their horses once passed but rather dispose to the hunt or dare I say it for meat.

That said my horse will be cremated individually and ashes returned to me but I am fortunate enough to be in a position to the able to afford this but at nearly 800GBP its not always an option for everyone, I do understand that.

So anyway without going on and on :o I think that it may suit some people situations and circumstances to take their horse to an abattoir and that’s their choice but don’t confuse it will being fundamentally any different to taking your horse to the vet or hunt to be PTS via a bullet.

I think you either need to oppose the gun method of PTS a horse full stop or not, not base your judgment on the location of where it happens or what happens to the body afterwards :confused:

**Dons flame retardant suit**

Sadiemay
 
Lady La La said:
I think this is a good point & well made...
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Why would anyone oppose the shooting of horses ? It's what happens in the majority of cases by people who know what they are doing ....it's quick, final and as painless as it can be when done properly. I'm guessing that the slaughter men working at Turners and Potters are the most skilfull of all and ironically that must make a slaughter house the best place for a horse to end up.
 
zebedee said:
Damn. I've just realised all the stuff saying how brilliant I am is on page 25 of god knows how many pages the eventual total will be.
Hardly anyone will see them :mad::mad::mad: ;)
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It's on page 50 of mine!! Don't worry though; all the people that matter know you're a genius and also very nice :)
I'm gutted that in just a couple of days this thread is nearly as long as my entirely friendly, non-antagonistic "Roll up, Roll up..." thread.... *sigh*
 
bonny said:
Why would anyone oppose the shooting of horses ? It's what happens in the majority of cases by people who know what they are doing ....it's quick, final and as painless as it can be when done properly. I'm guessing that the slaughter men working at Turners and Potters are the most skilfull of all and ironically that must make a slaughter house the best place for a horse to end up.
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Err... I wasn't opposing the gun method?

The point Sadiemay was making, is that there are people on here getting upset about a horse 'going to slaughter' when in actual fact, the mothod of killing is the same as those who opt to have the bullet for their horses at home or the hunt...whatever happens to the animal once it's dead is neither here nor there, as long as the death is as quick and painless as possible?

I was agreeing with her well written statement :confused:
 
bonny said:
I'm guessing that the slaughter men working at Turners and Potters are the most skilfull of all and ironically that must make a slaughter house the best place for a horse to end up.
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After some thought I find myself agreeing with you as much as it suprises me. I have heard one too many stories of vets dithering or being openly nervous of PTS a horse using the gun, who wants someone like that to do the job.

My good friend even had one vet turn round at the very last minute and say he couldnt do it! and he would have to inject instead :eek: This was not because her horse was gun shy or proving difficult (he was already sedated) just because he couldnt face shooting the horse point blank in the head I supoose :confused:, thank god he was honest and didnt just shoot anyway and hope for the best.

Although PTS by gun is not the method I personally would ever choose given a choice, I can only agree that a professional slaughterman is surely the most skilled to admister this method of PTS.

Sadiemay
 
lochpearl said:
So you have just said that it was YOU that made the horse edgy, reluctant and tense, not the fact that the horse knew what was going on in there and could smell the blood.
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No. That's not what I wrote. The first time we rode by, my horse reacted to the place and I didn't understand why because I didn't know it was an abattoir. When someone explained to me what this mysterious building was, the horse's reaction made more sense. Whenever we go hacking past this places, the horses seem on edge, regardless of their rider's view on the slaughter issue, lol.

This is just a small place in the country, not a huge one. I don't think they process horses. But the horses react when they go past it.
 
amymay said:
Over2You - and Tic Tac, as you are both so vocal in your objections

Can you tell me what your solution would be then for the thousands of horses and ponies who go through the market ring every year - who are destined for meat?

Who would you have take responsibility for them? - because clearly their owners or breeders want them sold.

We have a crisis in this country (as do Ireland) with the amount of unwanted stock. In Ireland in particular the picture is pretty grim - with proposals having been made by the government to incentivise owners financially to have their horses put down - rather than abandon them and allow them to starve (because they can no longer afford them).

Welsh hill ponies aren't worth anything more than meat money at the moment - again no one is buying. So what is their future??

I'm genuinly worried that so many people have little in the way of knowledge or experience of what actually goes on on the wider world.

So an answer please - what is your proposal??????

How do we manage the waste???
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Which of these is the most peaceful and dignified? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqyF4E019uI where the horse goes down gently and quietly. Or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eamy6PDeZdw where there is lots of thrashing about and blood. The former is how Guy is going (yes, I HAVE planned), the latter - NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS!!!

As for those of you saying there is a major crisis in America since horse slaughter was banned there. It was stopped for good reason. The method they were using was deemed inhumane for horses. Countless vets testified in favour of it being banned. Not to mention all the cruelty and abuse that went on behind closed doors. As for solutions. Prosecute and/or fine the horse sport industry for over producing. Instead of them making money from killer buyers. It is because there is such an easy way to get rid of surplus stock, that they continue to produce horses in bulk. If there were no quick fix solutions, they might just think twice about their breeding strategies. It is due to human greed, arrogance and ignorance that these crises came about in the first place. As for private owners. This is when the horse owner license comes into play. If you do not possess a knowledge of equine psychology (there are plenty of ways people can educate themselves). And if you cannot afford long term horse ownership, then you should not be allowed to have a horse. Same goes for dogs and other pets.
 
Brigantia:

Fair enough, I must have misunderstood. However if it doesn't process horses then perhaps it could be a reaction to the animal that they do slaughter there? Just a thought? One of my previous horses would go absolutely mad on a hack, it was almost like he could see things I couldn't and in the end I had to get off and lead him home - no chance of getting back on 17.2hh! On speaking to the YO, the field where were had been is normally full of pigs - horse sensed the smell - cue mad petrified horse.

As I said before I am I guess in the 'loving owner bracket' having mine pts at home and cremated, being with them till the end etc etc. However there is a need for these places and I honestly believe that the horses are not scared and do not know what is happening, otherwise why would they be seen eating whilst in the pens.
 
Over2You - you are clearly referring here:

And if you cannot afford long term horse ownership, then you should not be allowed to have a horse.
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to pet ownership.

So haven't answered my question.

Do you have a solution - or just an undefendable view point???
 
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