My horse is older than advertised/and on passport

[saddlesore]

This keeps getting worse ignore the ‘offer’ of the mare. Contact the BHS for info and the CAB. Realistically I think you should be aiming to keep Jet with a substantial refund. I’d also plaster their name all over here and dodgy dealer websites and help drive them out of business

 

[IveRunOutOfNamesToThinkOf]

Can you name anyone?

 

[Rowreach]

Please please don't be conned into a replacement, let alone a mare that sounds wholly unsuitable, from your own research.

 

[Rowreach]

Buying a horse: understanding your legal rights - Horse & Hound

If you’re a private owner planning to buy a horse, it’s important to know whether you are buying from a private seller or a dealer as your legal rights will be different in each case. While some owners are more cautious about buying from a dealer, because typically a professional seller’s horses...

www.horseandhound.co.uk

Oh and while not wishing to derail the thread, the Consumer Rights Directive applies in Ireland too.

 

[Highmileagecob]

Stick to your guns, tell dealer you are willing to pay a fair price, considering the 'mistake.' and expect that he will do the decent thing and refund you X amount. Beware of time wasting tactics that will take you out of the time frame for legal action. Small claims court is a good shout, and someone (Citizens' Advice?) can probably give you a good indication of whether you will succeed. If you win and the dealer refuses to pay, send the bailiffs in!

 

[sausagedogqueen]

I am reluctant at this stage to name the dealer on here or on the dodgy dealer sites. Only because I dont want them to become more difficult with me and make my life more stressful.
I told them what i wanted and my rights yesterday and they just responded with ok.
So i might have to sit tight for 7-14 days now as that is what trading standards have advised me. Although i am tempted to message again and say 'whats happening' but i equally have to allow them the time they need

 

[TPO]

I am reluctant at this stage to name the dealer on here or on the dodgy dealer sites. Only because I dont want them to become more difficult with me and make my life more stressful.

I told them what i wanted and my rights yesterday and they just responded with ok.

So i might have to sit tight for 7-14 days now as that is what trading standards have advised me. Although i am tempted to message again and say 'whats happening' but i equally have to allow them the time they need

I am reluctant at this stage to name the dealer on here or on the dodgy dealer sites. Only because I dont want them to become more difficult with me and make my life more stressful.

I told them what i wanted and my rights yesterday and they just responded with ok.

So i might have to sit tight for 7-14 days now as that is what trading standards have advised me. Although i am tempted to message again and say 'whats happening' but i equally have to allow them the time they need

I'd give them the time and use it to get all your ducks in a row. Receipts, hard copies of texts/emails, record what you can remember being said on all phone calls and visits to try the horse.

Get straight in your head what the best outcome is for you e.g. Full refund, £X back. Have a walking away point in your head I.e. the least that you are willing to accept and be prepared to walk away and take this further if that isn't met. A dealer isn't going to want to lose money so you have to know yourself what you want and what you're prepared to accept - rule one of negotiating

 

[splashgirl45]

If you mention the name on here your post will be taken down as it’s against the H&H rules…do NOT accept a replacement!!! Definitely not that mare ..sounds like Jet is exactly what you need, and I would get your vet to check him over thoroughly regarding lameness etc and teeth so you know your facts.. is there anyway that you could trace who owned him when he was microchipped so you could find out his exact age from that..from the sound of your post if you let him go it will really upset you so you need to be really sure how you want to proceed .. if the dealer sells him on I would think she will keep quiet about his age so she can get the maximum. Just keep in mind that a safe, sensible horse is worth a lot of money and it may take a very long time to find another.. I am very sad for you and Jet and hope all turns out well

 

[criso]

Would it be possible to get the replacement passport corrected so it will be more difficult to sell the horse as younger if the dealer offered to take him back. Might make a partial refund more attractive than taking him back to resell.

 

[sausagedogqueen]

Would it be possible to get the replacement passport corrected so it will be more difficult to sell the horse as younger if the dealer offered to take him back. Might make a partial refund more attractive than taking him back to resell.

I'm walking on egg shells at the moment as i think if i suggested doing this then the dealer will become difficult and reluctant to cooperate. I dont want to say anything that will start winding them up.

 

[ester]

Life is like that with anyone we meet horse or human . We choose to bond to things based on emotion. I wouldn’t dismiss a human if they weren’t fully functional, nor would I a horse or even a book! OP has bonded, yes they deserve financial compensation, but emotions count too

Yeah but we can still vet check

 

[criso]

I'm walking on egg shells at the moment as i think if i suggested doing this then the dealer will become difficult and reluctant to cooperate. I dont want to say anything that will start winding them up.

The dealer doesn't have to know at this stage. The horse is technically yours. It will protect the horse if you decide not to keep.

Also if read the link Rowreach linked.

It says

"Don’t let the horse dealer take the horse back to sell it on your behalf. You, and not the dealer, could find yourself in court by the next owner if you fail to disclose a problem."

 

[Upthecreek]

You need to be very careful. Whatever you decide do not under any circumstances send the horse back to the dealer so they can re-sell it before they refund you. If this happens they are selling the horse, which still belongs to you, on your behalf, and you will be dragged into it if anything goes wrong with the new owner. They must refund you before collecting the horse.

I’d definitely get legal advice as soon as possible. A decent dealer wouldn’t be handling the situation like they are so I wouldn’t expect a good outcome without legal pressure - you need to know your rights and tell the dealer exactly what you are expecting by way of remediation.

You don’t need to be nasty or rude, but you do need to be forceful or the dealer will just fob you off. And don’t forget they are not emotionally invested in the horse, they won’t give a toss what happens to him next.

 

[Caol Ila]

Does the vet not have to check? there will be hundreds of thousands of horses with incorrect passports

This is such a rubbish situation. I feel so sorry for you and Jet and hope you both get the best outcome possible.

Unfortunately, it's super easy to lie like a dog about a horse's age on a generic passport application, such as the Horse Passport Agency. When I moved my old horse from the US to the UK, I obviously had to get her a passport once she was here. The Horse Passport Agency ones were the cheapest and easiest to get. I spent about five minutes of my life and £30 filling out a form online, and voila, passport! I could have taken ten years off her age and no one would have known. Don't have to record parentage or anything. It doesn't require anyone to actually look at the horse.

When I was horse hunting in 2021, I looked at a horse who had been with its current owner for only six weeks, and the owner had gotten it a new passport from the Horse Passport Agency. Said she'd bought the horse from the field without one, and I could see that the passport had been issued recently. The whole story behind the horse was a bit odd. I didn't buy that horse.

My Highland also had a weird background and a replacement passport, and you can bet I did due diligence to confirm his age. I trusted the seller (I'm still friends with her) but you can never be too butt-covering.

The passport system is basically not very good at preventing fraud and it's very easy to con, because not every passport issuing agency requires a professional such as a vet to confirm that the horse is who you say he is.

Breed association ones, in my very limited experience, are much more anal. To get my PRE foal a passport with BAPSH, the breed society for Andalusian horses, my vet had to examine the foal and make a note of every white marking and whorl, insert and sign off on the microchip, yadda, yadda.

 

[criso]

Unfortunately, it's super easy to lie like a dog about a horse's age on a generic passport application, such as the Horse Passport Agency. When I moved my old horse from the US to the UK, I obviously had to get her a passport once she was here. The Horse Passport Agency ones were the cheapest and easiest to get. I spent about five minutes of my life and £30 filling out a form online, and voila, passport! I could have taken ten years off her age and no one would have known. Don't have to record parentage or anything. It doesn't require anyone to actually look at the horse.

It looks like that may have changed since you did that as the horse passport agency now requires a vet to fill out a form.

Interestingly I looked at the form and the notes for age say if records are not available the vet should estimate the age but it doesn't get printed on the passport.

I think it's also helpful that now you can look up microchips in one place which is how the OP found the real age and if the vet finds an existing one they should check.

That's not perfect though as I couldn't find my horse on there and that's an ex racer with a weatherbys passport so should have been transferred over.

Horse Passport Agency - Specialising in identity passports for horses

Since 2003 we have helped horse owners to comply with the law which requires you to have a passport, registered in your ownership, for every horse, pony or donkey you own.

www.horsepassportagency.co.uk

 

[eggs]

As said by previous posters, ageing by teeth is far from an exact science. I had a three year old that I had owned since a just weaned foal. When the vet looked in her mouth she had the teeth of an early two year old but we knew that she was 3.5. I had another horse that was definitely 8 and she was estimated to be 5 based on her teeth.

I really hope that you get a good outcome from this and get to have many happy years with Jet. Do bear in mind that even if you go to small claim court and win there is no certainty that you will ever see a penny of the judgement (I know this from bitter experience).

In law horses are treated as any other goods and not as a sentient being. It is hard for us to think like this but this is what the dodgy dealers rely on - new owner knows that they have been done but have fallen for the horse and could not bear to think of them going back to the dodgy dealer.

 

[sausagedogqueen]

I have emailed the vets that signed his passport and sent them photos, asking what checks they carry out to determine the age and asked how it has happened for a vet to sign off this passport. They came back and said that particular vet doesnt work for them anymore. I dont know what response i was hoping for

 

[sausagedogqueen]

I really hope that you get a good outcome from this and get to have many happy years with Jet. Do bear in mind that even if you go to small claim court and win there is no certainty that you will ever see a penny of the judgement (I know this from bitter experience).

This is my biggest fear to be honest

 

[Gloi]

This is my biggest fear to be honest

It is worth it though and not overly expensive.

 

[sausagedogqueen]

Dealer said they will only give me 500 quid back as a partial refund, otherwise it'll have to go to court

 

[Equi]

I’ll see you in court then, sir.

Also you may want to ask admin to remove this if it’s going to legal action.

 

[Rowreach]

Well now you know where it's going.

Don't give up. I know someone who bought a show cob unseen from across the water. She was very specific with the seller, and with the vet who she instructed to vet the horse, that it was for a high level showing home and the horse must be completely blemish free. When he arrived, he was not in great shape and had some very obvious splints and old scarring.

Both the seller and the vet told her to jog on when she went back to them, so she stuck to her guns, won her case, and ended up not just with a full refund but also got to keep the horse (who she quite liked at this point, even though he wasn't what she thought she was buying).

OP there's a chance your dealer will not be able to pay up and give you a proper refund, but it's definitely worth going for, and in any event the publicity may prevent someone else being done over by him.

 

[ester]

The only thing with court is that you can still win and not get any money, but if they were only offering £500 I’d take that risk myself.

 

[Lexi 123]

Thats awful but at-least you know I always thought first horse was older than expected but when we realised I had her years so it was to late to do anything about it . I bought her when she was 9 but we Actually think she was 16 as she looked way older compared to other horses the same age . I should have investigated but to be honest I was afraid to .

 

[Gloi]

The only thing with court is that you can still win and not get any money, but if they were only offering £500 I’d take that risk myself.

Then you carry on and send the bailiffs round, very easy to do from small claims. I won at that point and got refund plus costs paid (not horse related though)

 

[ester]

Yes but that doesn’t always work if they’re well practiced at the system.

 

[saddlesore]

That’s appalling I’d go to small claims for sure. Hopefully starting legal proceedings will get a better result.

 

[millikins]

I think it's a fairly positive step. The dealer is accepting responsibility, is agreeing to a partial refund so now it's about haggling for a better amount.

 

[Red-1]

Dealer said they will only give me 500 quid back as a partial refund, otherwise it'll have to go to court

TBH, I'd take it and enjoy the horse, as long as the vet says Jet is fit and healthy on examination on Tuesday. I would follow the same procedure as a 5 stage vetting.

 

[Rowreach]

I think it's a fairly positive step. The dealer is accepting responsibility, is agreeing to a partial refund so now it's about haggling for a better amount.

Except this was an expensive horse and £500 is peanuts.