My horse is older than advertised/and on passport

[sausagedogqueen]

It's been creeping up, £85/£90 depending on how you pay.

OP do you have legal cover with your home insurance or did you get the pony insured and have legal cover with that.

would have to check on the home insurance. Would be horse insurance even be valid as he’s insured as an 11 year old

 

[sausagedogqueen]

Until you have a vet look at his teeth you have no idea of his age only that he is at least 16 he could even be a lot older than depending on the age he was chipped as he may not have been chipped at birth.

I expect as he was chipped at a point where it was not a legal requirement somewhere along the line someone has cared enough about him to get him chipped in case he was stolen. I would not be surprised if he was not older than 17 and even in his mid 20s as breeders at that time would not have been routinely chipping youngster.

I expect dealer has made a profit on him as that is the business model so ignore the fact that she is is saying she can't take the hit it just means her profit margin is reduced.

Yes I know I’m being lied to, but I agree I need a vets opinion on age as it’s all well and good me asking for a refund to reflect a 17 year old but if he is in fact over 20 then I need to put my foot down.

 

[criso]

Until you have a vet look at his teeth you have no idea of his age only that he is at least 16 he could even be a lot older than depending on the age he was chipped as he may not have been chipped at birth.

I expect as he was chipped at a point where it was not a legal requirement somewhere along the line someone has cared enough about him to get him chipped in case he was stolen. I would not be surprised if he was not older than 17 and even in his mid 20s as breeders at that time would not have been routinely chipping youngster.

I expect dealer has made a profit on him as that is the business model so ignore the fact that she is is saying she can't take the hit it just means her profit margin is reduced.

Wouldn't that have been a vet that did the chip and passport?

Given that the pony would have been a yearling if it was correct, it would have been difficult to claim it was a different age.

Teeth are not an exact science and there is more of a variation than previously supposed so claiming a 9/10 year old is 6 might get through. However claiming an adult horse of 5 is 1 year old would be obviously untrue without even looking at teeth.

 

[Barton Bounty]

What amazes me is the vet doing the second passport didnt scan for a microchip. Seems bizarre to me

 

[Rowreach]

I'm hopefully wrong but wasn't there a similar thread and because the dealer offered a swap, which was refused, they were seen to have upheld their side.

There have been a few threads with dodgy dealers and missold horses so every chance I'm combining threads.

There are some dealers who state (I'm thinking in particular of the Irish one with the buy it now website that some have fallen foul of) that if the horse is unsuitable they will swap it, so presumably that's the agreement you make when you buy one from her. But in a normal dealer/buyer context, offering a swap when a horse is mis-sold is not (happy to be corrected) sufficient, and the buyer is entitled to return it within the proscribed time limit.

 

[criso]

There are some dealers who state (I'm thinking in particular of the Irish one with the buy it now website that some have fallen foul of) that if the horse is unsuitable they will swap it, so presumably that's the agreement you make when you buy one from her. But in a normal dealer/buyer context, offering a swap when a horse is mis-sold is not (happy to be corrected) sufficient, and the buyer is entitled to return it within the proscribed time limit.

I don't think you can sign away consumer rights if it's a dealer.

Like a shop saying no returns on sale items doesn't apply if the item is faulty.

 

[Rowreach]

I don't think you can sign away consumer rights if it's a dealer.

Like a shop saying no returns on sale items doesn't apply if the item is faulty.

I’ve always wondered how she gets away with it.

 

[sausagedogqueen]

What amazes me is the vet doing the second passport didnt scan for a microchip. Seems bizarre to me

This is what I keep questioning!! I am tempted to ring the vets that signed the passport to investigate it

 

[Barton Bounty]

This is what I keep questioning!! I am tempted to ring the vets that signed the passport to investigate it

At this point you have nothing more to lose! I would! Its worth a try… i feel for you!

 

[criso]

To clarify

Are there 2 chips, one that relates to the passport you were given, another that links to a different passport.

Or is it one chip, the same number but the details on the passport ie the age doesn't match what's held on the database.

Or third possibility, the chip number on scanning does not match what is on the passport, there isn't a second chip and basically you've been given the wrong passport.

 

[nagblagger]

[QUOTE="sausagedogqueen, post: 15123928,
This is what I keep questioning!! I am tempted to ring the vets that signed the passport to investigate it
[/QUOTE]

They won't tell you anything as you were not their client, that's the problem I'm having when they said my donkey had been castrated and he hasn't!

 

[ester]

I’ve always wondered how she gets away with it.

I think by making people think she's right/making it too darn difficult to ship one back over the sea.

I wonder how the swap thing is set out under consumer law given that you have to give the retailer a chance to resolve the situation and that for 'normal' products a swap for one that say 'works' would be deemed appropriate but obviously that doesn't quite work for horses. . .

 

[criso]

I think by making people think she's right/making it too darn difficult to ship one back over the sea.

I wonder how the swap thing is set out under consumer law given that you have to give the retailer a chance to resolve the situation and that for 'normal' products a swap for one that say 'works' would be deemed appropriate but obviously that doesn't quite work for horses. . .

Is that dealer in Ireland, would different rules apply as outside the UK.


A replacement is supposed to be identical, the same make and model. This gets tricky as horses are not identical and if you did apply that rule could a buyer then insist that the 'replacement' should be the same sex, breed, height, colour and age as the original.

Anyway within 30 days you automatically get your money back, repair or replace is after 30 days up to 6 months

 

[ester]

I ducked out of that one as I couldn't remember what side of the border she was

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

I ducked out of that one as I couldn't remember what side of the border she was

She is in the South, not sure how that applies to any dodgy dealing on her part, or Uk customers holding her to account.

 

[sausagedogqueen]

To clarify

Are there 2 chips, one that relates to the passport you were given, another that links to a different passport.

Or is it one chip, the same number but the details on the passport ie the age doesn't match what's held on the database.

Or third possibility, the chip number on scanning does not match what is on the passport, there isn't a second chip and basically you've been given the wrong passport.

I've scanned him, only one microchip number, which matches number on the passport. However. Passport is a replacement issued in 2019 and microchip confirmed it was implanted in 2007

I have looked for ways of finding out he is actually 11 years old because i desperately want him to be but everything leads back to him being 17 minimum

 

[sausagedogqueen]

With regards to the exchange and dealers being given the option to resolve the situation before refunding. They have said i can have the mare on trial for a week.. so would i need to trial the mare and then say not suitable? But then i wouldn't want Jet to leave the yard incase something happens to him

 

[nagblagger]

Or could you go to the dealer and take out for a test ride and then say she is not suitable?

 

[Ample Prosecco]

No. Legally they owe you a refund. You do not need to accept anything less. If you want to trial the mare then fine. But you don’t have to.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

With regards to the exchange and dealers being given the option to resolve the situation before refunding. They have said i can have the mare on trial for a week.. so would i need to trial the mare and then say not suitable? But then i wouldn't want Jet to leave the yard incase something happens to him

If you let Jet leave the yard you won't see him again or be able to find him. He will be rapidly moved on to another low end scumbag dealer. Possible name change, possible chip removal or worse. And the mare will be out of the frying pan into the fire for you I'm afraid.

 

[SO1]

Could you say you only were looking at geldings therefore a mare is not a suitable replacement.

 

[SO1]

Yes that is how these dealers work. They rely on people falling in love with their mis sold horse and worrying about sending them back to an unpleasant future so that they do not consider a replacement or refund.

The dealer is relying on the understandable attachment people have and the knowledge that they have come from a didgy dealer so they worry returning and instead ask for money off which the dealer is not obliged to give. A refund they are obliged to give but I expect it never gets that far in many situations as people have got too attached and don't want to send back to the dodgy dealer.

If you let Jet leave the yard you won't see him again or be able to find him. He will be rapidly moved on to another low end scumbag dealer. Possible name change, possible chip removal or worse. And the mare will be out of the frying pan into the fire for you I'm afraid. ☹

 

[ester]

You've researched the mare, she's not suitable, you don't need to trial her.

 

[criso]

I've scanned him, only one microchip number, which matches number on the passport. However. Passport is a replacement issued in 2019 and microchip confirmed it was implanted in 2007

I have looked for ways of finding out he is actually 11 years old because i desperately want him to be but everything leads back to him being 17 minimum

I assume the passport was issued by a different agency. In 2019 someone applied for a passport as the original had been lost maybe saying they didn't know where he was registered. Was this before a central register so can't look up in one place.

Vet fills out form, they tell vet he is 7 when in fact he is 13. Maybe it's deliberate to sell or maybe someone bought him without a passport and thinking he's 7. Vet doesn't check too closely or challenge this age.


Given there is a record of the chip being implanted in 2007, he can't be less than 16.

 

[criso]

With regards to the exchange and dealers being given the option to resolve the situation before refunding. They have said i can have the mare on trial for a week.. so would i need to trial the mare and then say not suitable? But then i wouldn't want Jet to leave the yard incase something happens to him

You don’t have to let them try and resolve the issue first. It's clear cut, the age is wrong, he's not as described. It's within 30 days.

 

[Merry neddy man]

Make sure your livery yard owner knows what is going on and that no one can come to collect Jet.

 

[sausagedogqueen]

Make sure your livery yard owner knows what is going on and that no one can come to collect Jet.

Oh they are fully aware and are furious with the dealer. They live on site anyway so I’m happy in knowing he is safe and not going anywhere.

 

[sausagedogqueen]

I assume the passport was issued by a different agency. In 2019 someone applied for a passport as the original had been lost maybe saying they didn't know where he was registered. Was this before a central register so can't look up in one place.

Vet fills out form, they tell vet he is 7 when in fact he is 13. Maybe it's deliberate to sell or maybe someone bought him without a passport and thinking he's 7. Vet doesn't check too closely or challenge this age.


Given there is a record of the chip being implanted in 2007, he can't be less than 16.

Does the vet not have to check? there will be hundreds of thousands of horses with incorrect passports

 

[criso]

Does the vet not have to check? there will be hundreds of thousands of horses with incorrect passports

Yes there will be. There are also horses out there with passports that aren't their, fewer now with microchips and horses with 2 microchips. A transporter i use sometimes, finds a lot with 2 chips and they have to be careful the chip that matches their paperwork is read when importing.

Aging by teeth in limited in adult horses. Whenever they've done studies and asked vets to assess blind, there are inaccuracies.

"Results showed that with immature horses (age five and under), dental growth patterns differed enough from the expected to cause the experts to err in their estimates by as much as two years and nine months. Mature horses between five and 10 years of age were even more likely to be misjudged: Eight- and 10-year-olds were estimated by some experienced clinicians to be between 13 and 15; one six-year-old was judged by one veterinarian to be 12; two eight-year-olds were pegged at 15 by several veterinarians. Some much older horses, on the other hand, passed for mere youths: A 17-year-old was judged to be nine by one practitioner, and a 15-year-old was aged as seven by another."

I know of quite young horses that the vet and dentist have been very wrong about but the history was known, the horses just had teeth that weren't developing at the usual rate.

There are also variables by breed as well as an impact of how horses are kept on the teeth.

Judging Horse Age from Teeth

Just how old is that horse? If you think the truth can always be found in his mouth, you may have swallowed an old horse-trader's line.

equusmagazine.com

An evaluation of the accuracy of ageing horses by their dentition: a matter of experience? - PubMed

There is a widely held belief that a horse can be accurately aged by an examination of its teeth but this belief has recently been questioned. In this study photographs were taken of the dentition of 434 thoroughbreds of known age. Four experienced equine clinicians provided estimates of the...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The Frequency of Errors in Determining Age Based on Selected Features of the Incisors of Icelandic Horses - PubMed

The structure and changes occurring to horses' teeth during ontogeny are not only used to assess the degree of somatic maturity but also the development of universal patterns and is therefore used to determine the age of horses. Research shows that methods of assessing the age of horses based on...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

However as it looks like Jet was microchipped as a yearling unless the vet was crooked, he's very likely 17.

 

[IveRunOutOfNamesToThinkOf]

We don't know that he is fully functional though.

Life is like that with anyone we meet horse or human . We choose to bond to things based on emotion. I wouldn’t dismiss a human if they weren’t fully functional, nor would I a horse or even a book! OP has bonded, yes they deserve financial compensation, but emotions count too