Navicular and good feet

[Hormonal Filly]

Some of you know I've been having issues with my 6yo mare, as a last resort I have sought a second opinion and been in touch with a lameness vet who visited yesterday.

He thought the problem was in front (he couldn't see any lameness) after a full lameness work up. After 3 hours and several nerve blocks she showed some improvement when blocking both feet, vet suspects navicular pain and is coming next week to x-ray feet.

She is a Irish sport horse with big feet, they've always been upright but good angles, heel and looks to be well shod (vets words) She was barefoot until last year but although had ideal looking barefoot feet (was being trimmed by a highly sought after podiatrist) she was always very selective where she walked and had always been like this since broken. I decided to have her shod 16 months ago due to struggling to find any hoof boots to fit/stay on.. although she still chooses grass verges over tarmac fully shod.

She is is much happier ridden in the field (hates the rubber arena surface) which baffles me, as I'd of thought she'd prefer the soft arena surface? According to the vet he's seen a lot of young, some unbroken barefoot natives with navicular.

She is now extremely unhappy (ears pinned back) lunged and worse ridden (rode for vet yesterday) this has got worse over the last 3 months since she had her neck medicated in June.

For info, she is muzzled at night with soaked hay and in during the day on soaked hay. Her weight is good, no pulse in her feet although laminitis did cross my mind.

 

[emilylou]

Any pictures of feet?
You need XR's, I'd get all 4 done, not just fronts, all angles. Look at foot balance as well as pathology.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Any pictures of feet?

Not yet, that is the plan next week.

 

[Boulty]

If she’s preferring a firmer surface over one with a bit of give / that is less stable then that can scream soft tissue injury.

If she’s not landing correctly and isn’t loading her foot evenly then yep totally possible to have issues even if the foot looks “good” visually

Soft tissue injuries are more likely to be evident on MRI but obviously X-rays will show boney changes and give you an idea of foot balance. (But a clear X-ray does not mean there’s no issue there if that makes sense?)

There’s quite a few people on here who could probably give you an opinion on hoof balance if you had photos taken head on & side on (camera on the ground and perpendicular to the foot for both of these) of feet plus sole shots (taken as straight as possible)

 

[Hormonal Filly]

If she’s preferring a firmer surface over one with a bit of give / that is less stable then that can scream soft tissue injury.

Thanks @Boulty, we nerve blocked both front suspensories first but it made no difference. The vet did explain x-rays aren't always helpful.

My farrier seems to think it could make sense not liking the school, the surface can be deep in places and being rubber could cause more reaction forces in the middle of the foot compared to say a field.

 

[Highmileagecob]

Really difficult to comment on without seeing the horse. She could be well shod, but shod on an unbalanced foot. She may be feeling heel pain. Could be frog pain - thrush/foreign body/puncture etc.. Any chance of getting someone to video her walking, from ground level, so that you can assess how she is placing the foot and landing?

 

[SEL]

My big mare (never shod, best feet on the old trimmer's books - current farrier agrees) has a navicular diagnosis following x-rays in 2021. Insurance wouldn't pay so I didn't go down the MRI route.

I strongly suspect DDFT damage or something along those lines as she damaged the opposite hind suspensory ligament a few years beforehand in a deep school surface and I think the forelimb lameness just didn't show up because we were all looking at the hind - or perhaps compensating for pain behind caused the damage in front.

Mine does have abnormal muscle development around her neck which she hates me loosening off so I wonder if by medicating the neck you took away her crutch and now she's feeling that foreleg more?

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Really interesting, thank you for sharing @SEL I always thought navicular was in poor feet, low heels. That is a possibility RE her neck, as since having the neck medicated she is so much worse.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Louis has navicular bone changes and the bursa was inflamed all found when he was about 14, he started to refuse to canter in the school would buck and get really upset about it and trotting he felt like the hand brake was on so I got him looked at.

I had it all treated with osphos and he had steroids in the bursa I was told to field rest which I did for 3 months, shoes were taken of at the vets and I never shod him again.

I very slowly started riding and he was fine and has been ever since his 19 now, I don't really hack him his not keen on it so his mainly ridden in the school.

He had fairly good feet one is smaller and more upright that was the worse one and it has continued to go that way but his happy to be ridden now no lameness.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

These are his feet now

 

[ester]

I’d anticipate needing an mri, but worth getting X-rays first. I think good feet reduce your chances of soft tissue injuries/aggravation but don’t eliminate it. Quite telling she aims for the grass still as I don’t think that’s very usual.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

he started to refuse to canter in the school would buck and get really upset about it and trotting he felt like the hand brake was on so I got him looked at.

Thanks for sharing Pinkvboots, great to hear he is happy and his feet look great. You've described my mare in your sentence above.

Thanks @ester, vet did mention MRI after x-rays. She is insured but have renewal coming soon and anticipate a huge increase (already £150 a month) so depends how much it goes up by and if I can go for MRI.

She always grazes with the left foot forward or stands base wide, plus being very sore on her chest between her front legs which is worsened with work. My previous vet didn't think this was related or worth noting, but vet that visited yesterday does. I don't think it helps her paddocks ground has been hard and she likes to bomb around despite having a field mate.

 

[sbloom]

Thanks for sharing Pinkvboots, great to hear he is happy and his feet look great. You've described my mare in your sentence above.

Thanks @ester, vet did mention MRI after x-rays. She is insured but have renewal coming soon and anticipate a huge increase (already £150 a month) so depends how much it goes up by and if I can go for MRI.

She always grazes with the left foot forward or stands base wide, plus being very sore on her chest between her front legs which is worsened with work. My previous vet didn't think this was related or worth noting, but vet that visited yesterday does. I don't think it helps her paddocks ground has been hard and she likes to bomb around despite having a field mate.

I honestly think that all things are generally related, not sure how they can't be, it's all a pattern of movement.

 

[Michen]

Thanks @Boulty, we nerve blocked both front suspensories first but it made no difference. The vet did explain x-rays aren't always helpful.

My farrier seems to think it could make sense not liking the school, the surface can be deep in places and being rubber could cause more reaction forces in the middle of the foot compared to say a field.

I think Boulty means soft tissue injury in the foot/feet.

Really hoping you can get a diagnosis!

 

[IrishMilo]

It could also be that she has thin soles and the sand is too abrasive for her. Have you got any photos of her feet?

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Thanks for sharing Pinkvboots, great to hear he is happy and his feet look great. You've described my mare in your sentence above.

Thanks @ester, vet did mention MRI after x-rays. She is insured but have renewal coming soon and anticipate a huge increase (already £150 a month) so depends how much it goes up by and if I can go for MRI.

She always grazes with the left foot forward or stands base wide, plus being very sore on her chest between her front legs which is worsened with work. My previous vet didn't think this was related or worth noting, but vet that visited yesterday does. I don't think it helps her paddocks ground has been hard and she likes to bomb around despite having a field mate.

Louis didn't have an mri they picked up the bone changes on xray and medicated the bursa as a matter of course because of that, apparently that becomes inflamed and what causes the most discomfort.

I remember my vet showing me the x rays when I picked him up they are like white lines going vertical on the navicular bone.

 

[Boulty]

Yeah as Michen saidthis sort of thing (soft tissue injuries of structures inside the foot) is what I was (badly) trying to say. (Apologies for age of blog post I’m sure someone will be along in a minute with something more recent)

Hoof imbalance - how it affects the parts you can't see

I've been trying to come up with a way to illustrate what happens when hooves get out of balance, but I haven't been able to find any pictur...

rockleyfarm.blogspot.com

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Navicular is normally damage to the soft tissue structures even though the changes can be seen in the bone the soft tissue surrounding it can cause pain.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Hoof photos, last shod 5 weeks ago due in a week. I noticed she had some thrush so I’ve sprayed with a friends foot rot vet spray.

Any thoughts appreciated.
Vet told me to walk hack, today we did a short ride and she tripped a few times.

Front right

Front left

 

[ester]

Hmm I don't really like those, the good news being there is improvement you can get.
I'd be really surprised if there isn't a negative HPA when you xray given the front profile.

 

[angel7]

I hesitate to comment, there are many more knowledgeable folk on here to advise you. My 2 cents worth, if your vet thinks this is a well shod foot, you need a new vet.
Shoe too small, too far forward with the heels unsupported and hanging over the back. Toe dumped. Foot too long everywhere. Frog looks thrushy. Something going on at the hairline?
Flare not being addressed.
I would remove the shoes and get another farrier.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Hmm I don't really like those, the good news being there is improvement you can get.
I'd be really surprised if there isn't a negative HPA when you xray given the front profile.

Thanks ester. They just look huge from the front don’t they, I’ve questioned this before and the farrier has told me that’s because she has big feet.

 

[angel7]

And yes hoof pastern axis not good.

 

[ester]

He's shoeing her short too, (ie v little support for heels)

I'm not sure toe is dumped, to me it looks more like hoof actually bullnosed- hence the negative palmar angle prediction (I got my HPA/NPA acronyms confused before!)

 

[TheMule]

Eeek- I'd have those shoes off asap, that is not a good shoeing job! She’s off work anyway.
I’m not surprised she’s blocking to the foot. 6 months field rest out of shoes might just tip the balance back in your favour to deal with her other physical issues

 

[ester]

But yeah, please take them off!
I genuinely wasn't expecting that given what vet had said. Can draw you some lines if helpful.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

He's shoeing her short too, (ie v little support for heels)

She went through a stage of always pulling shoes off, possibly why she’s shoing her short?

I feel awful. This farrier has won awards for GB.

 

[ester]

probably, bit of a sticking plaster though, to me she was likely doing that as her break over is delayed in front (see also the tripping)

 

[IrishMilo]

Sorry, I'm another who wouldn't be reassured at all by those feet. I know you've had/are having some issues with this girl - are you able to dedicate some time to a barefoot rehab? I think having the shoes off will be of massive benefit to her... she's basically got two left feet at the minute!

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Sorry, I'm another who wouldn't be reassured at all by those feet. I know you've had/are having some issues with this girl - are you able to dedicate some time to a barefoot rehab? I think having the shoes off will be of massive benefit to her... she's basically got two left feet at the minute!

She was barefoot until last year, I was told by an equine podiatrist she had ideal bare feet.. never broke up but she was still really footy over certain surfaces and I just couldn’t improve it. Hoof boots weren’t suited to her foot shape, Hoof Boutique said I’d struggle

This was just before she started to be shod, start of last year.