Navicular and good feet

[IrishMilo]

I'm not doubting you but there are literally hundreds of boots to choose from out there, and her feet don't exactly look like a special case. I'd definitely give them a crack! I do appreciate they're a faff though, I'm on my third pair trying to get the right size! At the very least, definitely get a new farrier.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

I'm not doubting you but there are literally hundreds of boots to choose from out there, and her feet don't exactly look like a special case. I'd definitely give them a crack! I do appreciate they're a faff though, I'm on my third pair trying to get the right size! At the very least, definitely get a new farrier.

I agree, it’s worth a try.

Over the space of almost a year I tried several hoof fit kits, 2 new pairs of boots and 3 second hand pairs. All twisted or came off, Hoof Bootique ran out of options and I decided to shoe her.

I’ve been recommended a farrier so will contact him next week.

Do I proceed with foot X-rays? Vet is due out Monday

 

[teach]

She went through a stage of always pulling shoes off, possibly why she’s shoing her short?

I feel awful. This farrier has won awards for GB.

We had a similar well qualified farrier on our yard. Over half the yard (we have to go off site if we wish to use a diff farrier to the yard one…but that’s another story!) started using a diff farrier, and lo and behold, all their ‘poor feet’ started improving!
Now the second farrier is also allowed on the yard..it’s not a good look when your liveries are being shod in the lay-by
Now

 

[angel7]

Bare feet angles look so much better but still not good if not comfortable. Why was the neck medicated, could be more than 1 thing going on. Could the neck be causing her to land differently? You need to film slo mo with camera on the ground to see how she is landing. I would still get the xrays done. Chicken and egg situation, is the feet making her neck worse or vice versa?
Agree boots can be a terrible faff. What size across are her feet? They don't look terribly big.
My mares were 6.5 inches across sole and 6.9 inches long with no heel and not a boot being made at the time fitted her.
Consider Hoof armour or hoof casting once shoes off. Look at diet again. Treat thrush aggressively.

 

[Foxford]

I'm sorry for the issues your're having OP. I think her feet look better unshod. I took shoes off my ID and did barefoot rehab with him - he was also pulling them off constantly, which was what really pushed me to do it. That and I was on a yard with some barefoot curious people, who gave me a lot of their time and some good resources to look at.

Mine was never lame but I spent a lot of time treating thrush and building his frogs back up. I believe it can cause caudal heel pain if established/long running.

The same horse went through an earlier period of needing a remedial farrier, due to a penetrating foot wound that required surgery. He was shod by a "GB team farrier" at my local equine hospital - under veterinary supervision. Once the farrier took his shoes off and was going mad saying "who shod this horse last time, his feet are in a mess - the bars haven't been trimmed and they've gone ingrown!"
I replied "you did"...
He blamed his apprentice for not trimming them before the farrier then shod him... Er, ok?!
I later found a great instructor who told me that we have to become experts in all aspects of horse care, to prevent being fooled into believing professionals are competent just because other people say they are. It's was a huge lesson for me and something I've taken forward ever since.

ETA I was told by vet and farrier during the remedial shoeing that he was sound and I should start light work with him. We then saw a physio, as he wasn't right going uphill on hacks in walk. She assessed him and marched into the office, telling the vet in no uncertain terms that the horse wasn't sound (I agreed). I still think of that physio and am forever grateful she validated my concerns and helped us, where others failed.

 

[Highmileagecob]

Have to agree with the comments. Yes, the farrier has put the shoe on nicely, but no attention has been paid to the hoof he is nailing the shoe on to. Have a look at Pete Ramey's 'Hoof Rehab' site, and don't be put off by the age of the articles. Best approach, in my humble opinion, would be to remove shoes, start treating thrush, and start walking her either in hand or under saddle. She needs to build up a heel and put some beef onto the heel bulbs to take her weight. Her heels are likely to be sore, so she is trying to walk on tiptoe. If it carries on, you will start to see navicular changes, which your farrier will address by fitting heart bars. Six months of barefoot rehab could be a game changer. Well done for noticing she isn't right - the horse on my yard that looks like this has apparently 'always been like that, it's normal for him' and the issues are exactly the same.

 

[sbloom]

I later found a great instructor who told me that we have to become experts in all aspects of horse care, to prevent being fooled into believing professionals are competent just because other people say they are. It's was a huge lesson for me and something I've taken forward ever since.

I think we are so resistant to this idea - we "pays our bills" and we "accepts their advice". We HAVE to have contextural knowledge to be able to choose the right professionals, to judge their work, to be the only advocate our horse(s) can/will ever have. It's not easy to learn, but it's why old horsemen and women had this unending depth of knowledge. I'm not surprised a vet said those feet were good, I sometimes think things are getting worse, and they weren't great before!

 

[AnShanDan]

I agree that if the vet thinks that these feet are well shod, I'd be looking for a)another vet and b)another farrier. Sorry.

I know you said that boots have been a pain but I'd be persevering with boots and pads somehow. Some boots need to be fitted really tightly, I have one in easy boot gloves that have to be put on with a mallet and his feet need trimmed really regularly to allow this, but the boots never budge.

 

[tristars]

Yes the easy boot gloves are well worth a try, very close fit

 

[paddy555]

She was barefoot until last year, I was told by an equine podiatrist she had ideal bare feet.. never broke up but she was still really footy over certain surfaces and I just couldn’t improve it. Hoof boots weren’t suited to her foot shape, Hoof Boutique said I’d struggle

This was just before she started to be shod, start of last year.

View attachment 146458View attachment 146459View attachment 146460

I'm not sure why the farrier thinks she has big feet. They look pretty normal size in these pics. You mentioned about getting X rays. I would do so then at least you have a starting point.

If her shod feet are so bad at 6 what are they going to be like at 8 if this carries on?

I'm not sure why they wouldn't go into boots. I would have thought there would have been a few choices.

I would think she was footy because the heel wasn't good enough. Now it's unsupported and getting more contracted.

It's sad to have had 2 similar posts in the last 10 days about poor farriery. This one and Shetland's Dex.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Agree with Ester the shoe is too short so no heel support.

I wouldn't be surprised if she hs some soft tissue discomfort I would take them off they looked better without shoes.

Depending on how stony your hacking is you might be OK without boots, I use hoof armour or sole guard on my horses as can't be bothered faffing with boots, Arabi kept tripping in his when I tried them and Louis only really goes in the school.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Thanks all, there is a farrier on the yard today who is going to have a look but a bit worried about making changes before the vet is back tomorrow?

I agree that if the vet thinks that these feet are well shod, I'd be looking for a)another vet and b)another farrier. Sorry.

It’s two vets that have said she is well shod.. both lameness vets which is concerning I’ll definitely look into a new farrier.

 

[Lamehorses]

Don't get totally hung up on the barefoot / shoeing at the moment.
You have involved the vet so your insurance clock is now ticking. Let your vet do the diagnostics - xrays / scans / mri & see what they come up with.
The shoes don't look great & you may be better off without them, but it's now worth finding out which structures are struggling.
I had one that I shod because he was always seeking the soft ground & didn't feel right.
Long story short after lots of jabs/investigation we realised he was riddled with arthritis & ended up being pts age 10
Yours has had neck injections, you don't say what that was for, but has he got other issues going on. The neck feeling better may have made him move differently & exacerbated other issues.
Good luck

 

[ester]

I would still xray at least, I think it will be helpful to know where the pedal bone is because looking at the whole foot I can see the temptation would be to bring the heels down but if it's NPA you don't want to do that.

Sounds like she might be tricky to boot due to her movement as much as her actual hooves if twisting? I was very lucky in that trimmer had a gloves fit kit and even though his hooves changed F actually fitted those forever, albeit only occasional use later on. Perhaps the hoof armour route? I did also see a glue/rubber mix application that people seem to be using successfully over here. What terrain are we talking?

Long long term, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to go back to good shoeing, with someone else, at least for part of the year maybe if you needed to. I still can't quite get my head round vets thinking that's an example of well shod.

 

[SEL]

You can still x-ray if the other farrier takes the shoes off.

I'm disappointed your vets thought that was good shoeing but not surprised. Somewhere in the depths of this forum is the wonky foot x-ray of my little cob. A vet suggested that the farrier wasn't trimming her straight DESPITE having the x rays in front of them showing bones in her hind hooves at odd angles. My farrier would have crippled her if he'd forced those straight.

Your horses hooves don't look such an odd shape there shouldn't be hoof boots out there, but unfortunately I think you're going to need to wait while that awful trim grows out. What's your hacking like?

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Yours has had neck injections, you don't say what that was for, but has he got other issues going on. The neck feeling better may have made him move differently & exacerbated other issues.
Good luck

She had neck injections as my previous vet (June 24) saw changes at C4-5, she was holding her head left while on the lunge and ridden is why we xrayed her neck.. but the neck injections made no difference. The new vet thinks she is holding her head left because the right foot is worse which kinda does make sense.

Flexibility in neck always been very good, even before she had steroids.

What terrain are we talking?

Hacking is either fields or stony tracks to get to the tarmac roads, can do a ride with us just fields but it’s one ride about a hour long but an option if she goes back barefoot.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

Am I imagining it or is the left foot better than the right?

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Am I imagining it or is the left foot better than the right?

Yes, well the vet thinks her right is worse (and that’s why she’s holding her head to the left and worse on the right rein)

She also grazes left foot forward ALL the time.

 

[paddy555]

Over the space of almost a year I tried several hoof fit kits,

I've never had success with fit kits and never use them. I always buy 3 sizes and try the actual boots. For example scoots, gloves and rennies fit very differently when the top is done up so a fit kit that seems slightly large may be fine when the gaiter/straps etc are added. Equally one that just about squeezes on becomes impossible when the gaiter is added.

Someone mentioned gloves and I think your original feet may have worked in those especially if straps were added.

 

[tristars]

The gloves are easy to put on

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Just had a friends farrier take a look, because he was shoing another horse. In his opinion ridiculously long, huge heel on front and back. He said not worth xraying while the feet are that out of balance but I can’t cancel the vet who is coming first thing tomorrow, at least the X-rays might show how badly she’s shod.

 

[soloequestrian]

That seems a weird comment from the boot sellers - those feet look to me like they should be easy to fit! I hated gloves - they are fiddly and they came off two horses who had never thrown a boot before. I use Cavallos now and I'd say my warmblood's feet are fairly similar to yours - a good general shape. The Cavallos are pretty forgiving, stay on well and you could use pads with them.

 

[w1bbler]

Just had a friends farrier take a look, because he was shoing another horse. In his opinion ridiculously long, huge heel on front and back. He said not worth xraying while the feet are that out of balance but I can’t cancel the vet who is coming first thing tomorrow, at least the X-rays might show how badly she’s shod.

Xrays show more than just hoof balance, so may well reveal something else.
Definitely not wasted if only shows the shoeing is completely out of balance, this would give a new farrier useful information (& useful although probably unwanted feedback to your current farrier) Alternative it will give you a very valid reason to try barefoot again

 

[paddy555]

I hated gloves - they are fiddly and they came off two horses who had never thrown a boot before. .

I'm afraid I must stick up for gloves. They would be my boot of choice over anything except that they are not as good as renegades on wet grass for traction. There is nothing to fiddle with just a single velcro fastening but of course they do have to fit.
I timed fitting renegade vipers today. On the basis that the feet were picked out as one would normally do before riding and the horse tied up ready and waiting it took 40 secs to put one on, 35 and 30 secs for each of the other three. I could fit gloves in half that time as they are a lot quicker to fasten. When I think of the time spent faffing around with horses, putting brushing boots, on overreach boots, prettying the mane and tail that seems a very short time for such protection of the feet. Shod you risk a stone bruise trotting over rocks. Booted I feel their feet are very safe.

I boot 2 horses daily and will be doing for some time due to hedge cutting of the blackthorn hedges around us on our single track roads. I have already had one bike tyre punctured but at least that won't need poulticing boots are not a faff, I am very grateful they protect their feet so well. That is 4 x vipers, 2 x gloves and 2 x epics.
We can ride in deep bog halfway up the cannon bones and all those boots never move.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

That seems a weird comment from the boot sellers - those feet look to me like they should be easy to fit! I hated gloves - they are fiddly and they came off two horses who had never thrown a boot before. I use Cavallos now and I'd say my warmblood's feet are fairly similar to yours - a good general shape. The Cavallos are pretty forgiving, stay on well and you could use pads with them.

Very upright heels I believe is why, also wider than they are long. Boots would either twist or totally fall off. Cavellos twisted just walking around the yard, thick pad made no difference.

I’d try barefoot again I’m not sure if I’d boot again. I was buying and selling all the time, tried every boot Hoof Boutique recommended. The podiatrist didn’t have any options either for boots that might fit, other than what I tried.

Xrays show more than just hoof balance, so may well reveal something else.
Definitely not wasted if only shows the shoeing is completely out of balance, this would give a new farrier useful information (& useful although probably unwanted feedback to your current farrier) Alternative it will give you a very valid reason to try barefoot again

Thank you

 

[Highmileagecob]

Well done for getting a second opinion from another farrier. If you decide to go with him, ask/tell him not to trim the hoof into balance on the first visit, but please take time over it. Start soaking the feet and treating for thrush, and then once the shoes are removed, the frog can start building tissue and the heels can spread and drop. At that point, wear and tear will start to bring the feet into balance and you should see a difference in the length of stride and the way she moves. Regarding the hanging to the left - has she had a good dental check to look for a chipped or broken tooth?

 

[ester]

fwiw I do believe you on the boot situ especially if wider than long.

And my gloves with power straps were easier to get on with a mallet.

The reason I didn’t take F to the wilts yard I was riding at was because the hacking was pretty much all stony chalk and I knew at the time that he wouldn’t cope with that. Where we stables was more of a mix and lots off road (fabulous hacking tbf!) but it did take him time to adjust as at home we’d only had grass or roads.

 

[paddy555]

I’d try barefoot again I’m not sure if I’d boot again.

I think realistically you would be struggling. There is now a lot the horse has to build up to get his feet back to where they were before the shoes and even then you said he was struggling. I think you will have to chose one and stick to it. ie shod or barefoot and boots at least for some of it.

It cannot be doing a horse's body any good to be changing from one heel height to another. Everything that happens with the feet causes a structural change further up. Some may not matter, some do.

having fitted a fair few boots then if this was mine I would have gone for the wide gloves with straps for your barefeet (as they were not now). They would have fitted tightly and needed a mallet to put on (which is pretty easy to do) if necessary I would have used heat to finely tune them.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

The vet has been again this morning, 3 hours and several nerve blocks. She was better with front feet and hind suspensories blocked, then started bucking and was still very grumpy. We x-rayed front feet. X-rays were pretty unremarkable, but could see some inflammation to the navicular bone by the deep digital flexor tendon on both feet. He drew on the x-rays and said she isn't being shod badly but it could be better.

Vets diagnosis.. He thinks DDFT in both front feet, hind suspensories and SI pain (showed in the bucking once we nerve blocked suspensories) and ulcers.

He has given me the option to send her for a MRI scan on her feet, to fully know what is going on in her feet, but did say it might not change the treatment. If its a hole in the DDFT that can sometimes heal with 12 months turned away but they're notorious for not healing and often horses only come back to light hacks. For the hind end, he spoke about a neurectomy for suspensories, but I'm not doing that - already had one horse who's nerves I had cut on vet advise and never again. He then said he could steroid her SI and injecting her hocks which might help with suspensory pain because nerve blocks to the suspensory area tend to block some of the hock and suspensory.

He did say sometimes 12 months turned away can really help, but not always. He did comment she is a bit long in her front pasterns. Not to forget this horse has changes in her neck as well, I know turnout isn't good for that and I'm on the fence if turnout will fix all of this.

I've been sobbing since, I really don't know what to do. If someone else came to me with a horse like this, I'd say put to sleep, but she is so sweet and attached to me.. which makes it even harder. It could explain why I'd almost say she is almost aggressive with other horses if she is in pain, doesn't want them near her or any contact with other horses which is very sad (she didn't use to be like this)

 

[TheMule]

I'm really sorry it wasn’t the positive outcome you were hoping for. I would agree with your initial thoughts that really the sensible thing would be to call it a day. Your choice whether you try some time off in the field or not- if she's displaying signs such as being aggressive then I think your know yourself that that may not be the most ethical thing to do.
You could keep looking for sources of pain- MRI front feet, scan suspensories, bone scan SI and treat accordingly, but these whole horse issues rarely respond to treatement for long before something else falls apart so it wouldn’t be my course of choice.