Navicular and good feet

[PinkvSantaboots]

The lameness vet doesn’t want her to have rest, he has advised after suspensory scans next week to start some ground work if the scans don’t show anything. I think he wants to get to the bottom of it.

I guess it depends how she is barefoot.

You have to go with what the vet says I just kind of assumed bone bruise would need rest, if you are only doing groundwork mostly in the school she should cope fairly well without shoes, handwalking on tarmac is good for conditioning the feet but might not be ideal if the bruising is still present.

 

[HorsesRule2009]

Another option is you could learn to do it yourself. It's daunting at first but then just becomes second nature! I trim all of mine now and just get my farrier to check the balance every once in a while. I love that I don't have to reply on anyone and can trim them my way.

Where did you learn to do this?

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Had a new farrier put a set of fronts on today.. and she didn’t trip once to the field after

Comparison photos

 

[angel7]

Hmm, I'm not sure this shoe job is much better I'm afraid...
The heel is still too short. Now the back pastern axis is broken too. Look at the angle of the pastern and the hoof wall.

 

[paddy555]

Hmm, I'm not sure this shoe job is much better I'm afraid...
The heel is still too short. Now the back pastern axis is broken too. Look at the angle of the pastern and the hoof wall.

difficult to disagree. There seems to be little support for the heel. So far I think the BF trimmer in post 30 has done the best job.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

The heel is still too short. Now the back pastern axis is broken too. Look at the angle of the pastern and the hoof wall.

His plan is as she grows more heel there is more there to support, there is only so much he can do in one shoeing..

Vet advised to keep fronts on for now (bone bruising) but did agree barefoot would be a good way forward.

 

[TheMule]

Hmm, I'm not sure this shoe job is much better I'm afraid...
The heel is still too short. Now the back pastern axis is broken too. Look at the angle of the pastern and the hoof wall.

Yep, also not a fan I'm afraid.

 

[angel7]

How can placing the end of the shoe an inch too far forward allow the heels to grow? The tubules are being crushed and the heel can not grow straight.
The heel horn looks plenty long enough, its the angles which are not right.
The foot breakover would be reduced if the shoe was rolled back and the shoe placed further back on the foot itself. A larger shoe with lateral support on the outside may also be helpful.
Or just leave the shoes off, cast the foot for protection and use some solpak for cushioning for the sole.

 

[paddy555]

His plan is as she grows more heel there is more there to support, there is only so much he can do in one shoeing..

Vet advised to keep fronts on for now (bone bruising) but did agree barefoot would be a good way forward.

where is she going to grow more heel? is it going to be forwards as it is now or is to going to be straighter and downwards? The foot is too far forward, it is not underneath the horse, the horse is walking "behind" where the foot is. In 6 weeks time for the next shoeing the heel is going to have grown but still forwards.

It's not she needs to grow more heel, she needs it in the right direction. If you look on the back inch on your pic between the back of the shoe and where the wall sits on it. You can see the tubules running forward.

 

[angel7]

Sorry I don't mean to be snippy. You are relying on a professional to help your horse and I am annoyed on your behalf they have basically repeated the failures of the previous one.
I think your horse has a good length of heel it appears, although they are starting to be crushed due to the overhang. The barefoot picture in the past shows he can have a good foot.
The current whole foot was too long. He has shortened it which it needed, but the angles are not right. The shoe itself still appears too small (without a top down view I cannot see if the outer wall of the hoof meets the outer aspect of the shoe). I think in a couple of weeks that outside wall will be coming out over the side of the shoe.
I would love some more pictures as they can be deceptive.

 

[angel7]

Thanks paddy555 you have articulated the problem more clearly than I.

 

[paddy555]

Sorry I don't mean to be snippy. You are relying on a professional to help your horse and I am annoyed on your behalf they have basically repeated the failures of the previous one.
I think your horse has a good length of heel it appears, although they are starting to be crushed due to the overhang. The barefoot picture in the past shows he can have a good foot.
The current whole foot was too long. He has shortened it which it needed, but the angles are not right. The shoe itself still appears too small (without a top down view I cannot see if the outer wall of the hoof meets the outer aspect of the shoe). I think in a couple of weeks that outside wall will be coming out over the side of the shoe.
I would love some more pictures as they can be deceptive.

HF "crushed" is a very good explanation. Can you see the heel is starting to get crushed? if the situation continues it will get more "crushed"

Can your earlier BF trimmer come back?

 

[angel7]

I've tried to show the issue. Above shows the overhang.
The black line shows the heels growing forwards when they need to grow downwards where the blue arrow is. I've scribbled in blue where the shoe could be positioned further back and with a rolled toe to reduce leverage. They could also put lateral extension on it to spread the weight of the horse over a large area.
But I really would get the shoes off and hoof armour on.

 

[TheMule]

I agree with the above posters- the shoe is too small, too far forward and will not improve anything. If you really want to help this horse it needs much better shoeing, or no shoes. I know it's really hard because it's the professionals you're paying that are failing, not you. But it’s so, so important to get it right, and this isn’t right.

 

[Clodagh]

@Hormonal Filly I’m sorry it’s not better but I’m learning such a lot (at your expense). Thank you for sharing the photos and I hope this can be sorted.

 

[Highmileagecob]

Oh dear. This is going to cause the foot more damage. If you want a more graphic picture of the issue, buy yourself a pair of wooden Scholl sandals a size too small, so that your heel hangs over the back of them. Now try and walk. All weight will be thrown onto the toe area to relieve heel pain. Please remove the shoes and let the hooves heal.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Agree with above shoe is too short and offering no support at all which will probably cause it to under run even further.

Bruising or not I would get those shoes off because the chances are that the bad shoeing has caused the bruising anyway.

Just wanted to add that when Louis had navicular changes and soft tissue damage my vet wanted remedial shoes on, after researching everything I could I said no and just took them off against his advice.

Best thing I did.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

I did exchange some DMs with Angel7, who after looking at more photos of the new shoes did think there had been some improvement.

The vet was back last week and watched her on the lunge, he saw a improvement since she had been reshod. She then had her ovaries, stifles, neck, back, front and hind suspensories scanned.

We found PSD in front suspensories, worse right fore as small hole in suspensory and some PSD in hind right. C4-5 is slightly roughened (which we were aware of, she had medicated in June)

She is now on box rest for 4 weeks, will then have a rescan and visit. Poss shockwave and he said Indiba is good. I've had previous issues with PSD and I know it isn't always great. Considering how little mileage she has, its rubbish.

I did question if all these issues would it be humane to PTS... but the vet thinks being only 6 she has a good chance, even if she comes back as a hack. I'm going to do my best rehab wise.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

To add, the lameness vet has mentioned the fact shes been on and off work over the last 18 months and that could of contributed to PSD and he said if she was ever over weight, it could of contributed. I mean she is over weight now (month off work and now on box rest) but I've always kept her trim and fit. I must admit, he did make me feel a bit rubbish as I already am blaming myself.

Still considering PTS, she just has a host of issues, I can't see that she will ever be happy in work but the vet wants to give it a try.

 

[SEL]

To add, the lameness vet has mentioned the fact shes been on and off work over the last 18 months and that could of contributed to PSD and he said if she was ever over weight, it could of contributed. I mean she is over weight now (month off work and now on box rest) but I've always kept her trim and fit. I must admit, he did make me feel a bit rubbish as I already am blaming myself.

Still considering PTS, she just has a host of issues, I can't see that she will ever be happy in work but the vet wants to give it a try.

There are plenty of fat horses who don't get PSD and plenty of fit, healthy ones who do. Injury, posture, conformation all play a part as well as hoof balance.

Indiba has a good reputation so fingers crossed.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Don't blame yourself about the psd I spoke to my physio and she said so many horses have it now, alot down to rubbish conformation and she thinks alot surfaces don't help either.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Thanks all x

she thinks alot surfaces don't help either.

I agree, although I've always been picky about surfaces and I rarely rode her on the surface at the yard because it is deep sand/rubber. If I did I'd always harrow after a lot of rain, because it is much better.

I've expressed this to others at the yard, who have lessons in summer when it is so deep its difficult for me to walk on but they tell me its fine and the horses have no problem.

 

[w1bbler]

Definitely recommend indiba for suspensories, if you can get someone there with the magic machine whilst she is on box rest that would probably do amazing things

 

[sbloom]

I would imagine the (apparent) increase in PSD, if not simply down to improved diagnostics and the massive increase in use of surfaces, could be down to the increased elasticity we breed for. We're doing this with no regard to long term soundness of the parents, especially the stallions who are graded and out there breeding well before any issues could show up (ironic that we've always complained about breeding from unsound mares).

 

[Foxford]

I would imagine the (apparent) increase in PSD, if not simply down to improved diagnostics and the massive increase in use of surfaces, could be down to the increased elasticity we breed for. We're doing this with no regard to long term soundness of the parents, especially the stallions who are graded and out there breeding well before any issues could show up (ironic that we've always complained about breeding from unsound mares).

Could also be lack of the traditional fittening work on roads prior to really getting them going... The rise of YH classes? A combination of those stretchy "types" of horse and the difference in expectations/workload? It's really interesting, and I wonder what research has been done on this.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Definitely recommend indiba for suspensories, if you can get someone there with the magic machine whilst she is on box rest that would probably do amazing things

Have a physio coming out with Indiba machine this week

Could also be lack of the traditional fittening work on roads prior to really getting them going... The rise of YH classes? A combination of those stretchy "types" of horse and the difference in expectations/workload? It's really interesting, and I wonder what research has been done on this.

It is very interesting why it’s increased or is it just better diagnostics now. The vet did mention she has very ‘expressive’ paces which will automatically put more strain on her ligaments. I’ve always been so careful bringing her back into work/getting her fit/making sure I do enough road work as we have brilliant hacking where I am.

We did a ODE in April this year and she didn’t find the XC a struggle at all. Just feels like bad luck.. but I understand how crucial foot balance is.

 

[9tails]

Regarding the shoeing photos, which one is the new one? If it's the bottom one, Lord help us.

Stop and take a breath, you're rushing to shoe, to go barefoot, to shoe etc. This horse could really do with getting out of shoes and into something to help with concussion. Shoes are not that. Bone bruises aren't like a normal bruise, they take a long time to heal. They sound innocuous but they're really not.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Shoes are off

 

[Highmileagecob]

Hope he comes right after some rehab. Do you think it is worth asking a good trimmer/podiatrist to help you? I'm sure someone on here could recommend locally.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Do you think it is worth asking a good trimmer/podiatrist to help you? I'm sure someone on here could recommend locally.

I don't know of any podiatrists locally, seems a gap in the market here. One I use to use ignored my text 2 weeks ago (only moved away as decided to put fronts on, which she didn't disagree with) and another said they're full - but had space to add 2 friends of mine onto her books.

The farrier that removed her shoes sounds very knowledgeable and trims a lot of BF horses, so tempted to stick with him.