Negative Comments!

[Sukistokes2]

I took my little horse out to dressage on Saturday, it was his 3rd trip out but the first time I had ridden myself. I chose a venue and show which is known to be friendly . I was not expecting a lot as he is a backward 5 year old, I have not been riding him long and frankly I ride like a numpty at these things anyhow. We went, he was a star, I rode like a numpty as expected but I was pleased overall. When I got the sheet back I was really shocked by the negatively of the whole thing. He is five going on fou(!!?)r of course he doesn't go in a consistant, elastic outline, yes he is hollow at times, he is too busy looking around! If he was going really well would I be doing intro A , at a local show!! How about some of the positives he showed, he was the only young horse there not to misbehave in the ring.....we hiit all the marks....he produced a lovely trot with a good rhythm. He was tracking lovely, his rider was a numpty but turned him out nice........ANY POSITIVE!!?

and she (that's the judge) said no walk transition was seen between B and F, well she cannot have been looking because it was clear as day on the video.

I am not new to dressage, I competed with my other horse for over five years, I am not even bothered about the marks, she didn't even pick on me she was like it with eveyone except the winner. I just feel it is wrong to be so negative on a test sheet, the sheet should point out the positives as well as the negatives and should also reflect the stage of training a horse is at.
I spoke to the shows organiser, she said the judge was know to be harsh. ....... my view is why have her then?
Sorry about the rant......you should have heard what my instructor said!

Tea and cakes to anyone who made it this far!

 

[Moomin1]

I took my little horse out to dressage on Saturday, it was his 3rd trip out but the first time I had ridden myself. I chose a venue and show which is known to be friendly . I was not expecting a lot as he is a backward 5 year old, I have not been riding him long and frankly I ride like a numpty at these things anyhow. We went, he was a star, I rode like a numpty as expected but I was pleased overall. When I got the sheet back I was really shocked by the negatively of the whole thing. He is five going on fou(!!?)r of course he doesn't go in a consistant, elastic outline, yes he is hollow at times, he is too busy looking around! If he was going really well would I be doing intro A , at a local show!! How about some of the positives he showed, he was the only young horse there not to misbehave in the ring.....we hiit all the marks....he produced a lovely trot with a good rhythm. He was tracking lovely, his rider was a numpty but turned him out nice........ANY POSITIVE!!?

and she (that's the judge) said no walk transition was seen between B and F, well she cannot have been looking because it was clear as day on the video.

I am not new to dressage, I competed with my other horse for over five years, I am not even bothered about the marks, she didn't even pick on me she was like it with eveyone except the winner. I just feel it is wrong to be so negative on a test sheet, the sheet should point out the positives as well as the negatives and should also reflect the stage of training a horse is at.
I spoke to the shows organiser, she said the judge was know to be harsh. ....... my view is why have her then?
Sorry about the rant......you should have heard what my instructor said!

Tea and cakes to anyone who made it this far!

I'd rather have a harsh judge than a lenient one. I've seen some shocking tests done which receive marks which are well above what they should be, and it only gives the rider a false sense of achievement in some cases.

 

[Cragrat]

Marks should be earned, and I don't think OP was complaining about those. Comments are different - the summary box at the end should have at least something encouraging!

 

[Sukistokes2]

Moomin, I don't expect to be molly coddled or them to lie, just to give balanced feedback AND to watch the test and not miss bits. I have written for a number of judges now ( just so I could improve and to keep my hand in ,as I had to retire Ffin) those judges were deemed firm......in fact for one I have done two shows and I have only written 8 twice!!! However they have always found something positive to add.It just seems to me that if you are too negative you do not help the riderwant to improve......just make them want to give up.

 

[NativePonyLover]

I think at a basic, grass roots level judges should be encouraging. For many, it'll be their first experience at a proper dressage test & if the comments/marks aren't encouraging, it could well be their last I imagine?!

I'm hoping to take my NF out to our first intro dressage next year & I'd at least like some positive feedback, if nothing else. Believe me, I won't be expecting anything else

 

[Goldenstar]

Tbh I never understand why people get upset about this .
I have had some scorching comments over the years I laugh and move on .
The best was a judge who mixed up my two horses and regurgitated the comments that an international level trainer gave my older horse at an open clinic about a month early she failed to notice this was different horse , they looked very similar though. I later discovered this judge was well known for making notes at clinics and using them later .
I would rather have a harsh judge than a lenient one you learn much more that way .

 

[Moomin1]

Moomin, I don't expect to be molly coddled or them to lie, just to give balanced feedback AND to watch the test and not miss bits. I have written for a number of judges now ( just so I could improve and to keep my hand in ,as I had to retire Ffin) those judges were deemed firm......in fact for one I have done two shows and I have only written 8 twice!!! However they have always found something positive to add.It just seems to me that if you are too negative you do not help the riderwant to improve......just make them want to give up.

I suppose it depends on how you look at it really. If you got fairly decent marks and a decent score, then I would take it that the only reason she has added the negative comments is purely to show you what to improve upon, rather than wasting time writing what you did well, because what you did well will have resulted in the decent marks you got, if you see what I mean?

 

[shadeofshyness]

Marks should be earned, and I don't think OP was complaining about those. Comments are different - the summary box at the end should have at least something encouraging!

I agree - for all they know, it could be someone's first ever show, and first experience in the world of dressage. Even if it's a total flop, a friendly 'don't give up hope, there were some nice moments' or something would be more constructive in the comments. I'm all for being realistic and firm, but being entirely negative could completely put someone off, especially someone new to the horsey world. Don't we want to change the daft media perception of us all being snooty?

 

[splashgirl45]

what a shame, don't let it put you off, just work on what went wrong and try again....many years ago I did a dressage test and my horse did everything at the right place and I was pleased with him and when I got my sheet all it focussed on was the fact that he was above the bit. this was mentioned for every movement and in the remarks at the end. I was really upset at the time as she hadn't given him credit for doing all the the movements etc, but I then really worked to get him forward and soft in front and the same judge (3 mths later) marked him really well and put some nice remark so it did work for me although I was pretty upset at the time..

 

[Lolo]

To be fair, it doesn't matter how old the horse is they're still all judged by the same standards. And working into a consistent contact is a pretty major thing, and you can't really get more than a 6 unless they do that, and that's if they're soft and swinging through.

 

[Sukistokes2]

I suppose it depends on how you look at it really. If you got fairly decent marks and a decent score, then I would take it that the only reason she has added the negative comments is purely to show you what to improve upon, rather than wasting time writing what you did well, because what you did well will have resulted in the decent marks you got, if you see what I mean?

the score would have been better had she noticed the transistion to walk betweem b and f and if she had seen he was on the centre line.... not to the left. ......I have video evidence! !!

My horse will develop an outline and show a more elastic contact with time, training and the development of the appropriate muscle, until then I will choose not to ride for such a negative person. I learnt nothing for the test sheet except that she did not show me the attention I had paid for.

 

[LegOn]

what a shame, don't let it put you off, just work on what went wrong and try again....many years ago I did a dressage test and my horse did everything at the right place and I was pleased with him and when I got my sheet all it focussed on was the fact that he was above the bit. this was mentioned for every movement and in the remarks at the end. I was really upset at the time as she hadn't given him credit for doing all the the movements etc, but I then really worked to get him forward and soft in front and the same judge (3 mths later) marked him really well and put some nice remark so it did work for me although I was pretty upset at the time..

This happened to me aswell! It was only a lower level riding club test which doesnt focus on the horse being on the contact but more the accuracy of the test, rider aids etc & EVERY box was filled in with 'above the bit' and then final comment was 'horse needs to be on the bit!' Eh hello - what about my lovely accurate test!!

It put me off dressage completely at the time... it was like 'what is the point!' but I've done a few since & some have been accurate and fair in the comments & others - well I'm sorry but its lazy judging. NOTHING written & a load of 6s... lazy, lazy, lazy! I wanted my money back to be honest on that one!

 

[Sukistokes2]

To be fair, it doesn't matter how old the horse is they're still all judged by the same standards. And working into a consistent contact is a pretty major thing, and you can't really get more than a 6 unless they do that, and that's if they're soft and swinging through.

The points are not the issue here. It is about the feedback given,

 

[benson21]

My very first dressage test, many years ago, I scored 38%, and the comments at the bottom were 'neither horse nor rider should ever ride a dressage test again'.
It obviously upset me, I knew we were not great, nerves had set in, but we were accurate on the test. I went to look for my sheet, it wasnt on the table with the others. the organiser of the show saw me, and pulled my sheet out of his pocket. He apologized and said, even before I had read the sheet, that he would never, ever use that judge again.
A few years later, I was at another different comp (I didnt give up on the dressage) I was riding 2 tests. The first sheet came back with a score of 62%, saying we were going really nicely, and gave some really positive comments. The other sheet I scored 42%, saying we were not accurate or going forward, and she didnt think we were suited.
It was the same judge as my first test.

 

[Moomin1]

the score would have been better had she noticed the transistion to walk betweem b and f and if she had seen he was on the centre line.... not to the left. ......I have video evidence! !!

My horse will develop an outline and show a more elastic contact with time, training and the development of the appropriate muscle, until then I will choose not to ride for such a negative person. I learnt nothing for the test sheet except that she did not show me the attention I had paid for.

Fair enough. If you know your horse is still young and inconsistent, then you know that it's nothing to worry about and you are bound to get low marks/negative comments, so I wouldn't let it bother you at all. Your horse will improve with age and the comments will become more positive.

 

[NativePonyLover]

My very first dressage test, many years ago, I scored 38%, and the comments at the bottom were 'neither horse nor rider should ever ride a dressage test again'.
It obviously upset me, I knew we were not great, nerves had set in, but we were accurate on the test. I went to look for my sheet, it wasnt on the table with the others. the organiser of the show saw me, and pulled my sheet out of his pocket. He apologized and said, even before I had read the sheet, that he would never, ever use that judge again.
A few years later, I was at another different comp (I didnt give up on the dressage) I was riding 2 tests. The first sheet came back with a score of 62%, saying we were going really nicely, and gave some really positive comments. The other sheet I scored 42%, saying we were not accurate or going forward, and she didnt think we were suited.
It was the same judge as my first test.

Oh bless you, I feel like I want to give you a hug for that mean first judge! X

 

[Lolo]

The points are not the issue here. It is about the feedback given,

And it sounds like you were given feedback, mostly related to the fact that you can't do better until this fairly basic standard is in place... That's a bread and butter thing, and impacts everything else.

I'd feel fairly patronised if I got a test sheet back that commented on things like accuracy and turnout. I'm an adult. I entered myself to be judged against a standard and accuracy is what you learn when you're still on the lead rein!

 

[JFTDWS]

I suppose it depends on what the comments were. Constructive comments are always acceptable, even if they are negative by pointing out what's missing - "needs to be more consistent in contact / more forwards / more balanced / et al.". Negative in the sense of "rubbish" is definitely not acceptable, and then there's a grey area in the middle. I've never even seen a sheet which didn't have some sort of positive comment at the end - highlighting potential for the future / obedience / even turnout if there's really nothing positive to highlight!

I do think it's important to word sheets fairly tactfully, but I'm not a fan of inappropriately positive comments either. If it was a pile of turd, do please feel free to say so - I probably already know, but if I didn't I certainly need to be told!

 

[LegOn]

I'd feel fairly patronised if I got a test sheet back that commented on things like accuracy and turnout. I'm an adult. I entered myself to be judged against a standard and accuracy is what you learn when you're still on the lead rein!

I think its fair to say it depends on what level you have entered at & the test you are riding. At lower levels in the Riding Club - it specifically says that the horse and rider are judged on accuracy. Even at the higher levels -accuracy is a major thing, if you do the movements inaccurately at the incorrect markers or your circles arent round but your horse is on the contact, you are naturally going to score lower than someone who has their horse going the same & is accurate!

 

[Merrymoles]

The nicest comment I ever had was "well ridden on a difficult horse" - no, it wasn't a great test but I was really pleased with the horse (who wasn't mine) who was known for just about every evasion in the book and did feel he had gone very nicely - for him! So, low marks were justified but we were accurate if not pretty and I was over the moon. A kind word from a judge does help in my opinion as the marks should be the true reflection of the test.

I rode someone else's horse in his first-ever test and we were about bottom of the table, only for the organiser to say to me as we were packing up that the (unaffiliated) class had been split by the judge as it was so large. It was a local venue and the judge knew most of the combinations taking part and their records but for the few of us who were not known, the organiser asked. I'd like to think everyone was honest! Anyway, the upshot was that our marks made us fourth in the "less experienced" group of about 20 and, once again, I was over the moon because I felt the horse had done well on his first outing and I had a rosette to prove it to his owners.

 

[Lolo]

I think its fair to say it depends on what level you have entered at & the test you are riding. At lower levels in the Riding Club - it specifically says that the horse and rider are judged on accuracy. Even at the higher levels -accuracy is a major thing, if you do the movements inaccurately at the incorrect markers or your circles are round but your horse is on the contact, you are naturally going to score lower than someone who has their horse going the same & is accurate!

I know, and I'm speaking as someone who has never scored above 60% at prelim level, let alone gone any higher. Which is why I'd feel deeply patronised by the idea that accuracy is anything other than standard. It's like, "well done you managed to do the bare minimum of what was required"- which is essentially all I ever managed on my old horse! I don't understand why you wouldn't be accurate unless things were going so badly you couldn't be...

 

[JFTDWS]

I had "tactfully ridden" when I took Dae out the other week. I thought the judge went out of her way to be positive about the test, given some of his ad libbing during it... I would have happily accepted a few "0- I'm sorry, what made you think that was a good idea?" or "0- what the heck were you playing at?!" comments on that sheet

But then, it was tactfully ridden, and he will be awesome when he grows into himself a bit more #biasedowner


Lolo, that test was ANYTHING but accurate. Medium trot instead of at least 40% of the canter and we left the arena twice

 

[Merrymoles]

Lolo, that test was ANYTHING but accurate. Medium trot instead of at least 40% of the canter and we left the arena twice

Laughing hard at this! Have a very good friend who used to have a very hot ex-racer and we wrote her a dressage test along the lines of:

Enter a A with a large buck; at X halt and salute; track right in half-pass to B snorting loudly; at F beggar off around the arena at gallop to A; etc

 

[Goldenstar]

I don't understand why you wouldn't be accurate unless things were going so badly you couldn't be...

Well there is that thing where you forget where you are going ...........

 

[Annagain]

The whole thing is so subjective isn't it. I long ago learned to be my own judge to a certain extent and decided as long as I was happy with a test and felt I was progressing, to take the marks and comments with a pinch of salt. I remember taking both Monty (calm, obedient, good at dressage and has nice paces PB of 74% for Prelim and 69% for Novice) & Archie (hates dressage, is a cantankerous old git and has paces like a carthorse. I only take him as I feel guilty he never goes anywhere!) to my local riding club a few years ago.

M won the first class - albeit on a relatively low score for a winning score - about 62% if I remember correctly. The comments weren't awful, but not particularly constructive. A was his usual spooky, silly, strong, stroppy self and got a deserved low 40s but his comments were more positive, bordering on partonising.

In the second class (same judge) I felt M went brilliantly. Everybody else was telling me how well he'd gone, with a few people saying it was the best they'd ever seen from us. I remember thinking it was at least a 65% test, if not close to 70%. A, who really had an extra special bee in his bonnet that day did an "A enter at charging trot, X immediate halt, spin and gallop to the door" and was generally a t****r for the whole test - much worse than the first one. I was expecting about 30%.....

They both scored 48%.
A beat M on collectives - even submission!
The only comment on M's test was that he wasn't going forward and was a lazy, unresponsive horse. Nice and construcitve there and a sweeping statement based on 4 1/2 minutes! I could understand, but not agree, if she said he was lazy and unresponsive that day but not in general! On A's she said "shame about the spook (if that was a spook, Hitler was a bit naughty!), otherwise showed some lovely paces and was nicely forward. Try flexing left and right to maintain his attention. WTF!!!

A few days later (without knowing it, I kept schtum) the judge was sitting next to me on a coach trip to Your Horse Live and told me how she'd been judging at my riding club the previous weekend and felt she'd made some serious mistakes in judging, particularly in the second test as she was getting tired (they weren't big classes so she'd maybe done 25 tests all day). It wasn't until she saw the added up marks on our website that she'd realised.

 

[Lolo]

I had "tactfully ridden" when I took Dae out the other week. I thought the judge went out of her way to be positive about the test, given some of his ad libbing during it... I would have happily accepted a few "0- I'm sorry, what made you think that was a good idea?" or "0- what the heck were you playing at?!" comments on that sheet

But then, it was tactfully ridden, and he will be awesome when he grows into himself a bit more #biasedowner


Lolo, that test was ANYTHING but accurate. Medium trot instead of at least 40% of the canter and we left the arena twice

You know those couples who have massive bust ups in public, shouting and swearing at each other? That was me and my horse doing dressage... He would resolutely be sillier and sillier as I tried harder and harder to force him to vaguely go in the right direction in an approximation of the correct gait. He had literally got a ministry of silly walks. Until you've watched a 25yo TB goose step across the long diagonal you haven't really lived...

 

[JFTDWS]

Laughing hard at this! Have a very good friend who used to have a very hot ex-racer and we wrote her a dressage test along the lines of:

Enter a A with a large buck; at X halt and salute; track right in half-pass to B snorting loudly; at F beggar off around the arena at gallop to A; etc

Such fun Gotta love a "realistic" dressage test

 

[Pearlsasinger]

My horse will develop an outline and show a more elastic contact with time, training and the development of the appropriate muscle, until then I will choose not to ride for such a negative person. I learnt nothing for the test sheet except that she did not show me the attention I had paid for.

You are obviously aware of the stage of training of the horse, so didn't really need the judge to comment on your performance. Just accept that the horse got the experience that you were looking for and opt to avoid that judge again, if you don't appreciate the style of comments. At least the judge gave up her time to allow you to compete.

 

[JFTDWS]

You know those couples who have massive bust ups in public, shouting and swearing at each other? That was me and my horse doing dressage... He would resolutely be sillier and sillier as I tried harder and harder to force him to vaguely go in the right direction in an approximation of the correct gait. He had literally got a ministry of silly walks. Until you've watched a 25yo TB goose step across the long diagonal you haven't really lived...

I would actually have paid to see that

 

[hihosilver]

I wouldn't be worried what the judge said at this point. I would take the positives that your horse behaved well is only a baby and has not been out much. I think you are far too sensitive. The judge could have said something positive but at the end of the day she is the judge! It wouldn't put me off at all I would just want to improve much more!!