Negative Comments!

If we accept that dressage encourages good riding and a good partnership between horse and rider, not to mention that the horse using his/her body more effectively should mean a longer working life for that horse, why on earth do we subject those who are new to it to straight negativity instead of constructive criticism? I'm talking unaffiliated intro/prelim here; I've heard a lot of stories like the OPs and I think intro should be a fun experience and full of helpful tips from a postivie judge. There's plenty of time to break out the harsher words at Intermediate level and above.

I'd love to go and do an intro test now as we're working reasonably well but not in a consistent outline (my fault, not horse's) and I could do with the experience. However, if I do, I'll get less than brilliant results and depending on the judge, a burst balloon that'll put me off competing again. Or - I wait until we're consistent and going really well, then I look like a pot-hunter. What a quandary.
 
JFTD said:
That's really unnecessary. We have no idea what the OP's test was like. She hasn't even told us what % she got...
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very rude I'd agree but not too far from the truth!!!😉 it was just under 56%, however I have never complained about the score, I got all silly and rode like a numpty, it was derserved. What concerned me was the total negatively of the judge. It was not a "crap" test it was just a green and tense one.

However if I practice for the next ten years and get to a novice level and then enter every walk and trot test in the area I might get a ribbion.
 
The thing is lots of people don't see those comments as negative we see it as saying it as it is .
If I want a warm feeling I go and talk to my Mum I would not want a platitude from a judge if I got 56% it would make me feel no better or worse it would not change the situation.
I just don't understand why you would let such a thing spoil a day out with your horse.
 
Sukistokes2 said:
very rude I'd agree but not too far from the truth!!!�� it was just under 56%, however I have never complained about the score, I got all silly and rode like a numpty, it was derserved. What concerned me was the total negatively of the judge. It was not a "crap" test it was just a green and tense one.

However if I practice for the next ten years and get to a novice level and then enter every walk and trot test in the area I might get a ribbion.
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Just under 56% isn't a rubbish test at all when you're just getting going on a green horse. I've seen prelim %s down as low as the 20s before :eek3: Mind you, I may be a bit biased as I get excited by 65% :p
 
That's dressage, it is blooming negative. That's the point. You're supposed to go home feeling, at best, like "well that was better than last time but still not good enough. Need to work on X, Y, Z..." I now stick to spending my money on endurance where much more often than not you go home feeling nothing but happiness, satisfaction and pride in your horse. I can do the "not good enough", miserableness at home in the school.
 
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Sukistokes2 said:
very rude I'd agree but not too far from the truth!!!😉 it was just under 56%, however I have never complained about the score, I got all silly and rode like a numpty, it was derserved. What concerned me was the total negatively of the judge. It was not a "crap" test it was just a green and tense one.

However if I practice for the next ten years and get to a novice level and then enter every walk and trot test in the area I might get a ribbion.
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Would you be willing to share the comments you got? A few people have asked now.

The problem is that some people are 'glass half empty' types and can be quick to interpret comments negatively.


To demonstrate my point the comments below are taken from a test I rode recently (affiliated E59), I won the class on 68% and was 2% clear of the rest. It was a good test, the comments were on movements where I lost marks. The good movements has no comments. This was a 100% constructive sheet:

'Unbal in move off'
'Hind legs trailing a little'
'Needs to come more from behind'
'Dropped down in front'
'Bal B-X'
'Hind legs trailing'
'Tension creeping in'
'Walk not clearly shown'
'Quarters right'
'Unbal on CL'
'Tentative in walk'
'Bal & straightness after D'
 
My worst ever test, I got 38% and I deserved it. It was Archie's first and last on grass and he was a total t***. I geniunely thought at one point we were going to end up on the judge's bonnet. The judge was particularly harsh given it was a local riding club, and not even an affiliated one, and I think the highest mark was about 54%. The club was mortified, but I wasn't, as her comments were critical but constructive, with pointers of what I should work on. I learned a lot from that test - mainly not to try to do dressage on grass with Archie again and that I needed to find a new way of dealing with his 'tension' (i.e. desire to p*** off) as hanging on to his head wasn't working (although self preservation demanded it that day!). I did that and improved (slightly!). I've had others with better marks that haven't been anywhere near as constructive or helped me to improve as much.

I agree they're not there to teach you, but a hint at what to work on, especially at local unaffiliated level doesn't go amiss. There's ways of saying even bad things without making people feel like c***.

Brutal truth doesn't always help. I blame Simon Cowell.
 
Sorry you feel you had a bad experience at your dressage event OP. I agree that there are good and bad ways of saying things. However what some people see as negative comments, others see as constructive criticism. Personally I prefer to get realistic if harsh comments (and I've certainly had a few of these)and marks rather than gushing praise, even at intro level.

I would also like to speak up on behalf of judges as there have been a few people on her having a go. I assume the judge at OPs show was not listed as you say she/he was paid to judge. I don't know if its the same elsewhere but the judges we use for our RC shows (who are predominantly BD listed) do it for travel expenses. They often have a long day, can be judging at events every weekend and often during the week too, do a lot of milage, and lets be honest, many are not in the first flush of youth. They also have to undertake regular judge training courses to keep their skills up to date. So it is not an easy life. It is also very difficult for show organisers to get judges as they are so busy and sometimes things happen and you have to use unfamiliar judges.

I was told recently by a listed judges that they are supposed to write one encouraging comment and one which highlights a key thing that could be improved on. (eg three true paces (encouraging) needs to work in a more consistent outline (something to work on) ). I have also been told that judges are encouraged to use the full range of marks nowadays, so we are seeing more 1's and 2's and 8's and 9's on the tast sheets we are marking (also now allowed to use 1/2 marks). This leads to a wider difference between the highest and lowest results in a class. Also a few years ago, one judge said that it was bad practice to give less than 5 for the riders collective mark.

At the end of the day with dressage as with showing, you are essentially putting yourself and your horse up to be judged. Showjuping is easier - you just have to keep the fences up and no one cares how you ride :)
 
ihatework said:
Would you be willing to share the comments you got? A few people have asked now.

The problem is that some people are 'glass half empty' types and can be quick to interpret comments negatively.


To demonstrate my point the comments below are taken from a test I rode recently (affiliated E59), I won the class on 68% and was 2% clear of the rest. It was a good test, the comments were on movements where I lost marks. The good movements has no comments. This was a 100% constructive sheet:

'Unbal in move off'
'Hind legs trailing a little'
'Needs to come more from behind'
'Dropped down in front'
'Bal B-X'
'Hind legs trailing'
'Tension creeping in'
'Walk not clearly shown'
'Quarters right'
'Unbal on CL'
'Tentative in walk'
'Bal & straightness after D'
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This! The judge's comments aren't to give a running commentary, but to explain why you have gotten a lower mark for this movement. A very high listed judge I wrote for once said that she has to work harder too on poorer tests, to explain where they have lost all the marks!

My good movements generally have nothing written beside them, so comments can look very negative as it's always picking up on bad things. But when you look at the movement scores, the comments, and the collectives, you get a better picture of the test.

My affiliated sheets from this weekend all went on about lack of suppleness, particularly to the left and lack of jump in left canter. But he got 67 and 68 in the prelim and 66 in the novice, so despite what looked like very negative comments, they were obviously not that bad!!

Go and write for a judge for the day. When you hear the tone they say the comments in rather than reading the words, you get a totally different view of what they are saying.
 
I think as others have said, at Intro level, the chance of the entrants been either novice horse and/or rider is pretty high so therefore, should be encouraged with constructive comments not negative ones.
 
khalswitz said:
This! The judge's comments aren't to give a running commentary, but to explain why you have gotten a lower mark for this movement. A very high listed judge I wrote for once said that she has to work harder too on poorer tests, to explain where they have lost all the marks!

My good movements generally have nothing written beside them, so comments can look very negative as it's always picking up on bad things. But when you look at the movement scores, the comments, and the collectives, you get a better picture of the test.

My affiliated sheets from this weekend all went on about lack of suppleness, particularly to the left and lack of jump in left canter. But he got 67 and 68 in the prelim and 66 in the novice, so despite what looked like very negative comments, they were obviously not that bad!!

Go and write for a judge for the day. When you hear the tone they say the comments in rather than reading the words, you get a totally different view of what they are saying.
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This is exactly what I was saying earlier but I don't think I said it as clearly. I personally wouldn't take the fact that there are no positive comments on the sheet as negative - I would just take it that the things they haven't written down as errors were performed satisfactorily or well.
 
Piglet said:
I think as others have said, at Intro level, the chance of the entrants been either novice horse and/or rider is pretty high so therefore, should be encouraged with constructive comments not negative ones.
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I don't see the difference in a novice rider in an intro test, or an experienced rider in a medium etc. Just because someone is novice, doesn't mean they are more likely to be disheartened or disappointed in recieving 'negative' comments. It's all relative. The experienced rider in the medium will have put a heck of a lot of work into getting where they are, so to receive 'negative' comments could have just as bad an effect as a novice rider receiving them. But IMO, by the whole nature of the fact someone is novice, or on a novice horse, they are clearly going to get 'negative' comments, because the judge has a job to write down what needs improving on. If the judge wrote "You are a terrible rider and mustn't enter again" - that is negative and rude. If they write "horse tense, above the bit" - then it's simply pointing out the reason the marks are lower, and what to improve on. How or why someone would get their knickers in a twist over that I don't know.
 
At Intro level (especially unaff) the comments should be encouraging as the riders/horses are likely to be young and/or inexperienced. At BD Elem it is a totally different ball game as people are seriously competing/training and will have a good understanding of the dressage terms and will appreciate harsher (but fair) criticism as they want to improve. I've written for some local unaff and the judges really do struggle sometimes as so much can be going wrong, but the comment at the end especially should always include a positive and a negative. Another thing to consider is BD judges are all trained, if you are competing unaff do try to compete at venues that use BD judges as this harsh judge could have had no training what so ever!
 
Moomin1 said:
I don't see the difference in a novice rider in an intro test, or an experienced rider in a medium etc. Just because someone is novice, doesn't mean they are more likely to be disheartened or disappointed in recieving 'negative' comments. It's all relative. The experienced rider in the medium will have put a heck of a lot of work into getting where they are, so to receive 'negative' comments could have just as bad an effect as a novice rider receiving them. But IMO, by the whole nature of the fact someone is novice, or on a novice horse, they are clearly going to get 'negative' comments, because the judge has a job to write down what needs improving on. If the judge wrote "You are a terrible rider and mustn't enter again" - that is negative and rude. If they write "horse tense, above the bit" - then it's simply pointing out the reason the marks are lower, and what to improve on. How or why someone would get their knickers in a twist over that I don't know.
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This. When I started out in dressage, I got low 50's, with 'tense, above the bit' for practically every movement. Judge comments 'horse very tense and resistant'. I knew it would take time for him to get the idea and settle down, so it didn't bother me.

Now, getting ANOTHER comment about suppleness makes me go 'argh!' As we have been working SO MUCH on bending, stretching, transitions... And the comments don't change. But the marks have gone up with the same comments attached, so I keep telling myself not to mind the comments.
 
Jango said:
At Intro level (especially unaff) the comments should be encouraging as the riders/horses are likely to be young and/or inexperienced. At BD Elem it is a totally different ball game as people are seriously competing/training and will have a good understanding of the dressage terms and will appreciate harsher (but fair) criticism as they want to improve. I've written for some local unaff and the judges really do struggle sometimes as so much can be going wrong, but the comment at the end especially should always include a positive and a negative. Another thing to consider is BD judges are all trained, if you are competing unaff do try to compete at venues that use BD judges as this harsh judge could have had no training what so ever!
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Fair enough if the rider is ten years old. If they are an adult, then it makes absolutely no difference as to how the judge should mark them
 
Here it's fairly normal for judges to dish out both positive and negative comments. The riding club team pin their test sheets to the board after each show and there's plenty of praise to be seen in them. But the comments are always plainly written and very specific, whether negative or positive.
 
ihatework - see I don't find those comments unduly negative. They're just explaining why the marks have dropped and give you clear instructions as to what you need to work on. IMO those are excellent comments.
 
Moomin1 said:
Fair enough if the rider is ten years old. If they are an adult, then it makes absolutely no difference as to how the judge should mark them
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Sorry, can't go with this - I am an adult, albeit at a very low level, and a bit of encouragement did help me no end. Unfortunately the judges that would be encouraging and constructive were pretty rare and that's why I decided dressage was not for me.
Can we just remember that we're talking about RC unaffiliated Intro here? I mean, where are people like me supposed to start? We didn't all have the chance to ride/compete when we were 10 years old and quite a few people I know say that they were more resilient/gutsy riders as children compared to now.
The local riding clubs seem as keen as ever to encourage people to come and 'have a go' but until we start to get things into perspective then I fear that many won't carry on. Looks like dressage is definitely for the thick-skinned, even at Intro level.
 
Apercrumbie said:
ihatework - see I don't find those comments unduly negative. They're just explaining why the marks have dropped and give you clear instructions as to what you need to work on. IMO those are excellent comments.
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EXACTLY.
They are not negative at all.

But some people may perceive them as such.

Hence why people on this thread have been asking the OP what their actual comments were - because until we know that, how do we know if the 'my sheet was full of negative comments' is justified?!
 
Nancykitt I completely concur with your post.

I wouldn't get upset by negative comments, but if I've paid good money and received a paper full of negativity and no encouragement whatsoever at unaff Intro, I'd probably think it's not worth bothering with dressage. Where's the fun and motivation in that? Back to jumping, where opinions don't matter!

Is that really the messge that the world of dressage wants to send to people who might otherwise be supporting it?
 
Nancykitt said:
Sorry, can't go with this - I am an adult, albeit at a very low level, and a bit of encouragement did help me no end. Unfortunately the judges that would be encouraging and constructive were pretty rare and that's why I decided dressage was not for me.
Can we just remember that we're talking about RC unaffiliated Intro here? I mean, where are people like me supposed to start? We didn't all have the chance to ride/compete when we were 10 years old and quite a few people I know say that they were more resilient/gutsy riders as children compared to now.
The local riding clubs seem as keen as ever to encourage people to come and 'have a go' but until we start to get things into perspective then I fear that many won't carry on. Looks like dressage is definitely for the thick-skinned, even at Intro level.
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You don't require a thick skin just a good instructor to help with understanding on how to read the comments in context, if the only comments were positive ones the riders may go home happy but probably then be moaning that they only got 5s or 6s when the comment was "lovely round circle" not what they really wanted to put "lacking rhythm and suppleness", a dressage competition is not a lesson, your instructor is the one to make you feel good, be building your confidence and improving how the partnership works together.

The judge should not be overly negative in their tone but it can be hard to put a positive twist in just a few words, the comments are there to explain why the mark was not higher not to boost the moral of the rider, this applies at every level as the marks are standard, the expectations are related to the scales of training even at intro level the horse should be working correctly at the level.
 
On the day that I got 5s and 'ABT' for every single movement, with no other comments, a friend watching me said a few things like 'the 20m circle on the left rein was too small - you didn't quite go into the corner enough on the canter (etc) but also 'he did a really good stretch on the FWLR.' Now if the judge had put something like that it would have been fine. I am not asking for 'only positive comments' but surely a bit of encouragement doesn't go amiss? I do have a really good instructor and she has been disgusted with some of the sheets I've shown her. My horse is certainly working correctly at Intro level at home and in lessons but he is wary of new places and experiences. Totally slating people who are having a go at Intro level and trying really hard is not helpful at all.

As I have said, the best judges tend to be listed judges who have had training and are pretty consistent, as well as being encouraging. Not all judges can be listed - I understand that - but i don't think it's too much to ask for greater consistency in the quality of judging.
 
be positive said:
if the only comments were positive ones the riders may go home happy but probably then be moaning that they only got 5s or 6s when the comment was "lovely round circle" not what they really wanted to put "lacking rhythm and suppleness"...
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No, I don't think anyone's saying they want gushing praise throughout - I am the last person to want that. But how hard is it to write "lacking rhythm and suppleness" for the circle left marked 5, and "better this way" for the circle right marked 6 (or different movement or something). I've had comments like that on sheets and I appreciate they're saying "rhythm/suppleness still an issue, but it's not all doom and gloom" rather than "FABULOUS! YOU'RE THE NEXT CARL HESTER!" :D

I'm not sure why I'm arguing about this. I moan more about inappropriately positive comments than I do about negative ones (though I do metaphorically shake my fist at some negative comments too :p ), and I really hate this societal theme of "we must all be nice at all times and nobody can ever lose or be rubbish at something". I generally assume nice comments are just people being polite, and negative ones are them being honest, so I am impossible. Perhaps I should shut up now?
 
Moomin1 said:
I don't see the difference in a novice rider in an intro test, or an experienced rider in a medium etc. Just because someone is novice, doesn't mean they are more likely to be disheartened or disappointed in recieving 'negative' comments. It's all relative. The experienced rider in the medium will have put a heck of a lot of work into getting where they are, so to receive 'negative' comments could have just as bad an effect as a novice rider receiving them. But IMO, by the whole nature of the fact someone is novice, or on a novice horse, they are clearly going to get 'negative' comments, because the judge has a job to write down what needs improving on. If the judge wrote "You are a terrible rider and mustn't enter again" - that is negative and rude. If they write "horse tense, above the bit" - then it's simply pointing out the reason the marks are lower, and what to improve on. How or why someone would get their knickers in a twist over that I don't know.
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I appreciate where you are coming from but, if you are just starting out in Dressage then there is nothing more disheartening than negative comments. I assume we are talking at local un affiliated level, then surely the whole point is to encourage and educate riders through constructive comments not put them off ever doing dressage again!!!
 
When the judge is marking s/he doesn't need to write any comment for the higher scores but if the mark is 6(I think) or below they have to write something to explain the lower score which is why a score sheet may look particularly negative at times.
 
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