Negative Comments!

JFTD said:
I had "tactfully ridden" when I took Dae out the other week. I thought the judge went out of her way to be positive about the test, given some of his ad libbing during it... I would have happily accepted a few "0- I'm sorry, what made you think that was a good idea?" or "0- what the heck were you playing at?!" comments on that sheet :p

But then, it was tactfully ridden, and he will be awesome when he grows into himself a bit more :D #biasedowner


Lolo, that test was ANYTHING but accurate. Medium trot instead of at least 40% of the canter and we left the arena twice :p
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I've "tactfully" or "sympathetically ridden" a couple of times as well. Received those at a couple of early ODEs when it must have been obvious to the judge that the pony was only just about holding it together and very narrowly avoiding a meltdown of nuclear proportions! :D

Going back to the OP. TBH if you entered an Intro test then yes I would expect the judge to be kind and encouraging. Most people do Intro tests because they and/ or the horse are new to it, or maybe they are very nervous, etc. Judges should be encouraging. Be fair with the marks, so not unduly harsh but not giving them out unwarranted, but I do think judges should try to give some positive comments. I did a ODE recently where apparently the judges were BD listed. Marking was strict (I hesitate to say harsh because it wasn't, but they were certainly less generous than I've been judged at BE80 comps) and the judge picked up on everything that was incorrect or late, however she also put some really encouraging comments at the end (we scored a 35 so not great but not terrible, and she gave me nice, constructive criticism).

I agree with another post further down - be your own judge. I now try to just focus on how the test felt to me, what was positive and what I need to work on. I am getting quite good at gauging approx what a test will score and for me the most important thing is coming away knowing that it felt a bit better than last time out.
 
Lolo said:
You know those couples who have massive bust ups in public, shouting and swearing at each other? That was me and my horse doing dressage... He would resolutely be sillier and sillier as I tried harder and harder to force him to vaguely go in the right direction in an approximation of the correct gait. He had literally got a ministry of silly walks. Until you've watched a 25yo TB goose step across the long diagonal you haven't really lived...
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Please tell me you have a video of that somewhere?! ;)
 
What did the judge write that was so negative?

What were the overall comments at the bottom?

One persons negative is another persons constructive.

You are paying to be judged against a set standard. The judge doesn't know your horses history they can only go by what is in front of them on the day. They are also only obliged to comment if they score below a 6, and that comment is to tell you why not higher.

Be pleased you have got your young horse out and about, and be confident that with continued training on the basics the scores will rise and the comments improve.
 
ihatework said:
The judge doesn't know your horses history they can only go by what is in front of them on the day. They are also only obliged to comment if they score below a 6, and that comment is to tell you why not higher.
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This - they don't know that your horse is a youngster at his first show.
 
What I don'tunderstand is that it seems that judges see a horse who is over bent and working on the forhand in a more positive light than one who is striding through, tracking up and working through the bit but with the nose slightly poking.
 
Fides said:
What I don'tunderstand is that it seems that judges see a horse who is over bent and working on the forhand in a more positive light than one who is striding through, tracking up and working through the bit but with the nose slightly poking.
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Tbh I haven't actually seen many horses over bent in unaff dressage. Most I have seen are running around like camels, unbalanced and hollow. I was quite horrified to see how low the standard was at a local venue.
 
Fides said:
What I don'tunderstand is that it seems that judges see a horse who is over bent and working on the forhand in a more positive light than one who is striding through, tracking up and working through the bit but with the nose slightly poking.
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I write quite a bit and I don't see this trend I have to say.

Certainly you see over bent horses on the forehand, and they are marked accordingly. The majority of horses with nose poking are generally hollow, stiff and going just as badly as the over bent lot .... It's just this second group of riders find it easier to pull the 'judges prefer the overbent' card out to explain their lack of marks.

The horses that are genuinely IFV, but working through to a secure contact generally score highly
 
Moomin1 said:
Tbh I haven't actually seen many horses over bent in unaff dressage. Most I have seen are running around like camels, unbalanced and hollow. I was quite horrified to see how low the standard was at a local venue.
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This, usually ridden by people who chat rubbish about overbent horses. It's very common for a young/ green horse learning to properly work over its back to not then have the strength to work uphill. As long as they're light and confident in the contact and able to offer more uphill work in short bursts, gradually becoming more uphill as they develop then that's far preferable to the above the bit, hollow look.
 
I am not a judge but I have written for PC up to affiliated Grand Prix, and the most negative comments often come from judges who either have not done BD training or on the lower lists and out to prove what they know and the most positive comments from those who judge at the higher levels. The more experienced the judge they seem to look at the bigger picture and not nit pick.
When I write I often know what they are going to say before they say it, I leave out anything I think is rude, they check the sheet afterwards and if they want to add,feel free.
Two of the worst sheets I have seen have been at PC, I am careful not to voice my opinion until the sheet is completed, one pony was doing a ODE, the test was a bit rough round the edges. I judges comment to me was' why on earth is this here', and my reply was not knowing the child or the pony, 'because it will be safe XC', I checked and it went clear.
Negative comments tell nobody anything, often we know already that its 'a little hollow', how many times have I written that phrase? You are not there for a riding lesson but someone pointing the way with a smile is to me always more constructive.
 
Lolo said:
You know those couples who have massive bust ups in public, shouting and swearing at each other? That was me and my horse doing dressage... He would resolutely be sillier and sillier as I tried harder and harder to force him to vaguely go in the right direction in an approximation of the correct gait. He had literally got a ministry of silly walks. Until you've watched a 25yo TB goose step across the long diagonal you haven't really lived...
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Haha. The last time I took A out -the first time he'd been anywhere other than fun rides for 2 years - he was a star. . He was being soooo good. We had made it 90% of the way through the test with no spooking, charging, leaving of the arena, spinning or napping - despite his friend being outside and the door being open as it was so hot. He wasn't 100% calm, but he was mainiting his and my dignity. He'd never felt so good in a test, I kept looking at my caller in complete surpise to see her withthe same look on her face.Then.......

We were supposed to canter at C, round the arena, across the diagonal and trot at X and change the rein. We cantered, we made our way down the long side of the arena and I could feel it rising. He'd clearly used up all of his goodness and just couldn't contain himself any longer. We shot round the corner with me hauling him round to avoid jumping the boards
for which we scored 4 - "unbalanced and tense". Along the short side, we just got faster. Across the diagonal I was almost flat on his back tugging on one rein then the other to try to stop as he was exploding underneath me. We somehow managed to turn in time - on the wrong leg - without falling over and stay in the arena and eventually got back to trot at H. We got a 3 - "wild!!!" for that.

My caller was howling laughing... the writer was howling laughing..... the person videoing my test was howling laughing, all the spectators were howling laughing. Even the judge was howling laughing - luckily I know her so it was ok. I ended up joining in too. The annoying thing was he then turned up the centre line beautifully and got an 8 for his halt! We scored 64%and it would have been close to 70% (a PB) if it wasn't for his "wildness". I was still thrille with him though, he's never been that well behaved in dressage before.
 
Tbh, it doesn't sound as though you and your horse were really quite ready to compete as a partnership. Ideally, you want to be working consisistently at the next level up when at home, so you have some buffer when you are in a competition environment, with all its distractions.

Don't worry about the negative comments. All of us who compete will have had some sheets returned which bear no apparent connection to the test we thought we rode. Just shake it off and aim for the next milepost.
 
I agree that the comments should be constructive, if honest, even if only in the summary at the bottom. I know how boring dressage judging can be, but it is quite tough when you don't get good feedback. It doesn't take much to put one constructive comment at the bottom of each test, along the lines of "try this/will gain higher marks if..." etc. I once did the most appalling test on a very nappy green horse. We left the arena at speed 3 times before the steward shut the gate. He then kept trying although I managed to keep him in the boards. I kept getting more and more upset which didn't help at all, but I did keep going. All in all, a terrible, terrible test. However, the judge still managed to put a constructive comment about helping his trotwork and a triple underlined "Well persevered". The mark reflected how awful the test was, as did many of the comments, but I hugely appreciated the two comments she put at the end. It made me feel like much less of a failure and I went away with something to work on.

ETA - I personally didn't find her comments patronising as it was still very clear how bad it was, they were constructive and not falsely positive.
 
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honetpot said:
I am not a judge but I have written for PC up to affiliated Grand Prix, and the most negative comments often come from judges who either have not done BD training or on the lower lists and out to prove what they know and the most positive comments from those who judge at the higher levels. The more experienced the judge they seem to look at the bigger picture and not nit pick.
When I write I often know what they are going to say before they say it, I leave out anything I think is rude, they check the sheet afterwards and if they want to add,feel free.
Two of the worst sheets I have seen have been at PC, I am careful not to voice my opinion until the sheet is completed, one pony was doing a ODE, the test was a bit rough round the edges. I judges comment to me was' why on earth is this here', and my reply was not knowing the child or the pony, 'because it will be safe XC', I checked and it went clear.
Negative comments tell nobody anything, often we know already that its 'a little hollow', how many times have I written that phrase? You are not there for a riding lesson but someone pointing the way with a smile is to me always more constructive.
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I disagree. Surely the whole point in doing a test is to effectively learn from it. I agree with whoever said above that some people have different views as to what 'negative' is with regard the comments written. Fine, if a judge writes 'completely rubbish, don't bother again'..that's negative and rude. But simply pointing out faults is not an issue at all in my mind, whether they come with positive comments or not. I would just take it that whatever they HAVEN'T commented on must be of a good standard.
 
I agree with Lolo, ihatework and ester - the judge is looking for a certain standard, regardless of level. Comments may SEEM negative, but it depends how they are written - I very often get 'needs to be more *supple/balanced/engaged* to get the higher marks', sometimes and sometimes not accompanied by a positive comment like 'very *accurate/obedient/nice walk work*' or 'pleasing moments', or even 'well sat' on some of our early, very low scoring tests! But ultimately the comments are telling you why you have scored what you have, not giving you a lesson with a confidence booster.

I agree that sometimes it can be demoralising, but more because I think people don't appreciate what the judge is looking for. What feels nice may not be accurate, or may be accurate but resistant, on the forehand and unbalanced.

You say riding club test, too - IME BRC uses BD tests, except for their Riding Tests which are a different kettle of fish. All of those tests are judged according to BD standards, and at Intro the Scales of Training apply, so a horse not on the bit will lose marks for each movement as well as in the collectives - that is what they are looking for. Intro is not supposed to be easier the Prelim (a mistake a lot of people make) - it is judged exactly the same, it just does not have any canter (and has some movements like the 1/2 10m circles that are HARDER than prelim, and don't appear again until Novice). So, an intro test is very much judging whether your horse is on the bit (i.e. submitting to the contact and engaging the hindquarters), and balanced, and supple, and engaged, rather than purely accuracy.
 
a few things but mostly agree with lolo, ihatework etc.

The judge doesnt have time to write a flowery essay-she's told you what you need to work on and it sounds like she was spot on so not sure what the issue is?

she can only mark what is in front of her and cant take in to account anything except that.

but TBH the major thing that jumped put at me here-why is a 5yo running round head in air unable to do a walk and trot test?!
 
Fides said:
What I don'tunderstand is that it seems that judges see a horse who is over bent and working on the forhand in a more positive light than one who is striding through, tracking up and working through the bit but with the nose slightly poking.
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At what level? I certainly don't see that at my level. I haven't seen it at UA Intro/ Prelim / Nov and I haven't seen it at BE80/ UA and PC/ RC 90s. I've also groomed for friends at higher levels (ie, friend at BE Int) and haven't seen it in the DR at that level either.

I have seen plenty of upside down horses, heads in the air, bimbling along going nowhere really, not tracking up, not particularly off the leg, on the forehand. I recently took a friend to do an Intro with her horse, which she won. Her horse, while he had the odd BTV moment, did a really lovely test. He tracked up, was rhythmical, obedient and just had the odd baby moment where he dropped BTV because he hasn't quite got the strength to hold it for that long. He was miles ahead of the other tests, which were all heads in the air, upside down, not working through at all... I watched the whole class, her test was the only one in which the horse was doing anything correctly. The odd BTV moments could be forgiven because it still looked better and the whole picture was more correct than those upside down horses.

The only time I think I've ever seen anything held in BTV in a DR test was a super strong Welsh D type which was just plain rude and the rider had to hang on for dear life!
 
chestnut cob said:
Please tell me you have a video of that somewhere?! ;)
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Thank the lord no! No videos of any of his dressage at all, and almost no photos. Lots and lots of us doing what we loved though, jumping and hacking :D Dressage was what we did so we could do the fun bits at ODEs!
 
I write for judges quite a lot and often they squeeze so many competitors in there is very little time to score the test and write all the comments in order to keep on schedule. Most of the judges I have written for try their best to say positive things at lower level tests but sometimes it is very difficult to find positives to write about. "Well tried" must be the last line of defence!
 
Tiddlypom said:
Tbh, it doesn't sound as though you and your horse were really quite ready to compete as a partnership. Ideally, you want to be working consisistently at the next level up when at home, so you have some buffer when you are in a competition environment, with all its distractions.
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Most horses will have a bit of a drop in performance or manners though when they're just getting used to the competitive atmosphere. Even if they're working competently at novice at home, you can still have a nightmare in a prelim first time out seeing boards / warming up in chaos / trying to keep focus when there's another horse in the next arena! (Particularly so if, like me, you can't even mock these things up at home because of a distinct lack of others at my yard!)

Gloi said:
"Well tried" must be the last line of defence!
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I think that would be "Nice plaits" actually :p
 
JFTD said:
Most horses will have a bit of a drop in performance or manners though when they're just getting used to the competitive atmosphere. Even if they're working competently at novice at home, you can still have a nightmare in a prelim first time out seeing boards / warming up in chaos / trying to keep focus when there's another horse in the next arena! (Particularly so if, like me, you can't even mock these things up at home because of a distinct lack of others at my yard!)



I think that would be "Nice plaits" actually :p
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I've had 'handsome horse', when neither 'nice plaits' nor 'well tried' really applied. And once, 'at least you attempted', when Geoff promptly exploded on the centre line and left the arena.
 
One thing I learnt on the first yard I trained in - owned by an international dressage judge, is DON'T go out to compete at Prelim until your horse is working competently at Novice level at home. Your horse will rarely work as well out as at home.

The judge doesn't know your horse is a green 5yr old, she judges what she sees in front of her.

Where did you do the transition between B and F? At B or at F?

Where was your person standing to video? To actually see if the horse was on the centreline, they would need to be standing at A or C. Even sitting to one side of the judge the view of the work up the centreline is skewed.

Sometimes it is difficult to be encouraging if the overall test is of poor quality. I hate the comment "tactfully ridden" as it usually means the test was crap!

However it is easy to change something negative such as 'Halt not square' to a positive 'Halt almost square' both say the same thing the latter more encouraging.
 
Sukistokes2 said:
I took my little horse out to dressage on Saturday, it was his 3rd trip out but the first time I had ridden myself. I chose a venue and show which is known to be friendly . I was not expecting a lot as he is a backward 5 year old, I have not been riding him long and frankly I ride like a numpty at these things anyhow. We went, he was a star, I rode like a numpty as expected but I was pleased overall. When I got the sheet back I was really shocked by the negatively of the whole thing. He is five going on fou(!!?)r of course he doesn't go in a consistant, elastic outline, yes he is hollow at times, he is too busy looking around! If he was going really well would I be doing intro A , at a local show!! How about some of the positives he showed, he was the only young horse there not to misbehave in the ring.....we hiit all the marks....he produced a lovely trot with a good rhythm. He was tracking lovely, his rider was a numpty but turned him out nice........ANY POSITIVE!!?

and she (that's the judge) said no walk transition was seen between B and F, well she cannot have been looking because it was clear as day on the video.

I am not new to dressage, I competed with my other horse for over five years, I am not even bothered about the marks, she didn't even pick on me she was like it with eveyone except the winner. I just feel it is wrong to be so negative on a test sheet, the sheet should point out the positives as well as the negatives and should also reflect the stage of training a horse is at.
I spoke to the shows organiser, she said the judge was know to be harsh. ....... my view is why have her then?
Sorry about the rant......you should have heard what my instructor said!

Tea and cakes to anyone who made it this far!
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I would think what a misery, next time you see me & my pony, i'll make you eat your words! You know your horse, you know what can be done - do it. Get him out & about to lots of different venues, focus on your schooling & prove her wrong!
 
JFTD said:
Most horses will have a bit of a drop in performance or manners though when they're just getting used to the competitive atmosphere. Even if they're working competently at novice at home, you can still have a nightmare in a prelim first time out seeing boards / warming up in chaos / trying to keep focus when there's another horse in the next arena! (Particularly so if, like me, you can't even mock these things up at home because of a distinct lack of others at my yard!)



I think that would be "Nice plaits" actually :p
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Oh no,I had Nice Plaits on my second dressage test and I was really chuffed!!
 
I acutally wonder why some do judge - they don't seem to enjoy it at all. Most judges seem to concentrate on the negative, I think it is a failing of the system as much as anything.

Mostly I don't read them these days. However writing was a good experience - judges in general seem to have key phrases they use over and over. I found myself writing the same thing for just about everyone in the class - but as a rider you don't get to see the other test sheets. So if the judge was saying that about you, there were probably a fair few others getting the same comments.
 
NZJenny said:
I acutally wonder why some do judge - they don't seem to enjoy it at all. Most judges seem to concentrate on the negative, I think it is a failing of the system as much as anything.

Mostly I don't read them these days. However writing was a good experience - judges in general seem to have key phrases they use over and over. I found myself writing the same thing for just about everyone in the class - but as a rider you don't get to see the other test sheets. So if the judge was saying that about you, there were probably a fair few others getting the same comments.
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I just don't see the point in doing a test, and not reading the comments and taking on board the criticisms. Sorry but it seems like a good way to bury your head in the sand and make no improvements.
 
I always think that low level dressage should be encouraging, yes the scores can be low but if there is something good to comment on, like 'some nice strides of trot' or 'accurate on the circle' then it should be said.

One venue I went to sent my normally calm little mare into meltdown, we did our worst test ever (it was only a walk trot). Our free walk on a long rein was barely a walk, she yelled her head off all the way round, leaped into the air over x and tanked me round whilst refusing to go near the corners and spooking at the mirrors. I actually apologised to the judge on the way out. We got hopeless marks but a comment of 'Well done for perservering!'
 
Fjord said:
I always think that low level dressage should be encouraging, yes the scores can be low but if there is something good to comment on, like 'some nice strides of trot' or 'accurate on the circle'. One venue I went to sent my normally calm little mare into meltdown, we did our worst test ever (it was only a walk trot). Our free walk on a long rein was barely a walk, she yelled her head off all the way round, leaped into the air over x and tanked me round whilst refusing to go near the corners and spooking at the mirrors. I actually apologised to the judge on the way out. We got hopeless marks but a comment of 'Well done for perservering!'
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I suppose it's all individual as to what is important. Personally I would find it quite patronising if that's what I got written as a positive.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
You are obviously aware of the stage of training of the horse, so didn't really need the judge to comment on your performance. Just accept that the horse got the experience that you were looking for and opt to avoid that judge again, if you don't appreciate the style of comments. At least the judge gave up her time to allow you to compete.
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she was paid for her time!!!!!!
 
I don't mind platitudes but do feel that Intro test should encourage people especially children ans those starting out in dressage it is after all what it says on the tin and Introduction to dressage and as such should be judged accordingly. Yes marks should reflect the quality of the paces and training but comments should be constructive and polite. Tearing a 10 year old to pieces is to me inappropriate behaviour. They do have to learn that they don't win every time but to me an intro test is a starting point in training and a means to an end not the end of the process I see too many riders who use intro as a warm up knowing full well they will win as they always do week in week out.
Judges do have preferences one near me has a blind love for a particular warm blood in the classes and in spite of it spooking the full length of the arena in its first test and bucking like stink in every canter in the prelim it was in the top two winning the intro and second in the prelim I was reading for the ponies and was horrified by those results it was on the forehand throughout and so didnt even go well in between the indiscretions
 
Moomin1 said:
I suppose it's all individual as to what is important. Personally I would find it quite patronising if that's what I got written as a positive.
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I don't think it's meant to be patronising. I think it's meant as an acknowledgement that we've all been there, we've all had days where anything that can go wrong does, with bells on. And it's just a way of the judge acknowledging that today wasn't your day, but hey, these things happen!
 
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