Negative Comments!

If your horse is not ready to be competitive then the judge can hardly be condemned for noticing, commenting and scoring on this fact. It is not the judge's job to speculate on what the horse will be like when it is ready. If you don't want to be judged then go au concours, although the judge will still comment. If I know my horse is green then I just take it for the experience and don't really mind what the judge says.
 
hihosilver said:
I wouldn't be worried what the judge said at this point. I would take the positives that your horse behaved well is only a baby and has not been out much. I think you are far too sensitive. The judge could have said something positive but at the end of the day she is the judge! It wouldn't put me off at all I would just want to improve much more!!
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This is what I have done! It is just the first test sheet I have seen without any positive comments! If I wrote a school report like that and believe me I have wanted too, I would be called to the head teachers office! He will improve and so will I, as we get used to each other but it was mean of the judge to ignore the good points of the test...........and there were some......and to be solely negative and this Is the point I am making.
 
Cortez said:
If your horse is not ready to be competitive then the judge can hardly be condemned for noticing, commenting and scoring on this fact. It is not the judge's job to speculate on what the horse will be like when it is ready. If you don't want to be judged then go au concours, although the judge will still comment. If I know my horse is green then I just take it for the experience and don't really mind what the judge says.
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That is your opinion and good for you for being big enough to take it on the chin. The point I was making was that she was solely negative, ignoring some nice points which was unnecessary, she also did not pay attention and missed a whole movement,
 
Sukistokes2 said:
That is your opinion and good for you for being big enough to take it on the chin. The point I was making was that she was solely negative, ignoring some nice points which was unnecessary, she also did not pay attention and missed a whole movement,
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Maybe she didn't ignore the nice points, maybe she just didn't note them on your sheet - there's a difference. The good points should have reflected in the marks you got. If you got reasonably good marks for the movements that you feel you did well, then that is the important thing.
 
Tnavas said:
One thing I learnt on the first yard I trained in - owned by an international dressage judge, is DON'T go out to compete at Prelim until your horse is working competently at Novice level at home. Your horse will rarely work as well out as at home.

The judge doesn't know your horse is a green 5yr old, she judges what she sees in front of her.

Where did you do the transition between B and F? At B or at F?

Where was your person standing to video? To actually see if the horse was on the centreline, they would need to be standing at A or C. Even sitting to one side of the judge the view of the work up the centreline is skewed.

Sometimes it is difficult to be encouraging if the overall test is of poor quality. I hate the comment "tactfully ridden" as it usually means the test was crap!

However it is easy to change something negative such as 'Halt not square' to a positive 'Halt almost square' both say the same thing the latter more encouraging.
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Not prelim, intro A, probably well below your level.....a dear old walk and trot. Ideal for young horses and new riders,

The movement is a transistion to walk.....BETWEEN....B and F not at either of them!
 
blazingsaddles said:
I would think what a misery, next time you see me & my pony, i'll make you eat your words! You know your horse, you know what can be done - do it. Get him out & about to lots of different venues, focus on your schooling & prove her wrong!
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This , if nothing else use it as a kick up the butt and get the marks and percentage better
 
Apercrumbie said:
I agree that the comments should be constructive, if honest, even if only in the summary at the bottom. I know how boring dressage judging can be, but it is quite tough when you don't get good feedback. It doesn't take much to put one constructive comment at the bottom of each test, along the lines of "try this/will gain higher marks if..." etc. I once did the most appalling test on a very nappy green horse. We left the arena at speed 3 times before the steward shut the gate. He then kept trying although I managed to keep him in the boards. I kept getting more and more upset which didn't help at all, but I did keep going. All in all, a terrible, terrible test. However, the judge still managed to put a constructive comment about helping his trotwork and a triple underlined "Well persevered". The mark reflected how awful the test was, as did many of the comments, but I hugely appreciated the two comments she put at the end. It made me feel like much less of a failure and I went away with something to work on.

ETA - I personally didn't find her comments patronising as it was still very clear how bad it was, they were constructive and not falsely positive.
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This is Exactly what I mean!!!!!!!!!
 
Sukistokes2 said:
Not prelim, intro A, probably well below your level.....a dear old walk and trot. Ideal for young horses and new riders,

The movement is a transistion to walk.....BETWEEN....B and F not at either of them!
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OP it does come across like you don't take criticism very well. Don't let one test wind you up so much. Take it as a lesson to improve, which you already admit you know there is room for. You already pointed out that you know what the positives were, so you don't need the judge to tell you.
 
At intro A or B it should be a step to dressage. If horse was in an outline then you would not be at this level. Been there a lot my self with babies. We use it as a learning curve. It should be judged below prelim , even in prelim an outline may not be consistent.
 
I think it's so important for judges to be supportive and encouraging at these lower levels. Criticism can so easily be be given in an encouraging and supportive way.

For many it's their first foray in to dressage, and for some their last ad all their hard work is stomped all over...
 
Sukistokes2 said:
Not prelim, intro A, probably well below your level.....a dear old walk and trot. Ideal for young horses and new riders,

The movement is a transistion to walk.....BETWEEN....B and F not at either of them!
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I had a judge miss one of these once. I wasn't impressed either. On the other hand I once got marks for another movement I actually didn't perform. It's bloody annoying, but judges are human and mistakes happen. I do agree that every sheet should have some sort of positive comment on - even if some people do find that patronising ;)
 
Sukistokes2 said:
Not prelim, intro A, probably well below your level.....a dear old walk and trot. Ideal for young horses and new riders,

The movement is a transistion to walk.....BETWEEN....B and F not at either of them!
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OK you have obviously misunderstood my comments

Be working at home at least a level above what you plan to compete at. Eg wishing to compete at Intro A, therefore be working well at the next level at home. The work at Intro A being well practised and perfected.

Transition to walk between B and F means that the transition is between them, preferably halfway between them. If your transition happened at B, then your transition was early. If your transition was at F then it was late.

The judge is there like an examiner to judge what she sees in front of her, not give a riding lesson. The marks are there to tell you at what level the work she sees is at.

For example 4 means what was shown was insufficient. 6 means what was shown was satisfactory. So reading the marks will tell you what you need to work on more.

I once wrote for a judge who was also a writer and she boasted that she liked to give lots of feedback, then bitched at me because I couldn't keep up. There is only so much time and space for information to be written.

Judges may be paid but I can assure you they don't get paid nearly enough for the hours they spend sitting in uncomfortable cars/huts in either freezing cold/baking hot weather.

Accept that you did a crap test and work very hard on improving the quality of your horses basic paces.
 
Well I hope you get more positive remarks for your next test.

I was doing a prelim once (I don't do dressage really) and my horse could be a "plunger" when excited, all was going nicely until the horse in the warm up area exploded just as we commenced working canter. One massive buck later I was on the arena floor. As we finished our test I gave said horse a friendly slap and the writer and judge were laughing. Comment was "not able to show true paces as a bit tense today"!
 
Falconers said:
Well I hope you get more positive remarks for your next test.

I was doing a prelim once (I don't do dressage really) and my horse could be a "plunger" when excited, all was going nicely until the horse in the warm up area exploded just as we commenced working canter. One massive buck later I was on the arena floor. As we finished our test I gave said horse a friendly slap and the writer and judge were laughing. Comment was "not able to show true paces as a bit tense today"!
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Did they mean you or the horse lol!
 
Tnavas said:
Accept that you did a crap test and work very hard on improving the quality of your horses basic paces.
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That's really unnecessary. We have no idea what the OP's test was like. She hasn't even told us what % she got...
 
JFTD said:
I had "tactfully ridden" when I took Dae out the other week. I thought the judge went out of her way to be positive about the test, given some of his ad libbing during it... I would have happily accepted a few "0- I'm sorry, what made you think that was a good idea?" or "0- what the heck were you playing at?!" comments on that sheet :p

But then, it was tactfully ridden, and he will be awesome when he grows into himself a bit more :D #biasedowner


Lolo, that test was ANYTHING but accurate. Medium trot instead of at least 40% of the canter and we left the arena twice :p
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Had to laugh it this, I once got "Pirouette not required at this level!" After young horse did an about turn as we came down the centre line.
 
Highlands said:
At intro A or B it should be a step to dressage. If horse was in an outline then you would not be at this level. Been there a lot my self with babies. We use it as a learning curve. It should be judged below prelim , even in prelim an outline may not be consistent.
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Except it isn't in terms of marking. Intro is marked the same as prelim, and the two levels are lumped together in terms of what is expected as far as the scale of training goes. So it is not below prelim - it just doesn't have any canter. It is designed for young horses/green riders whose canter is not to competition standard - but the rest of the work is expected to be prelim level.

Even at prelim, a horse that is resistant to the contact is marked down. Of course a 'proper' mature outline, poll high and uphill, is not what they are expecting. But they expect the horse to be working from behind and not resistant to the contact, and certainly not above the bit.

Being in an outline (and there are lots of different stages of outline through the process of training) is part of the horse going well, and of course you will be marked lower if it is not in a outline, as that is a sign of the horse not submitting, not engaging, or not being supple, and these things are key.

However, a horse can not be in outline and still do reasonably. A friend of mine has an older gelding who absolutely will not go in outline and hates a contact, but is very supple, very engaged, accurate and otherwise very nice. He regularly scores 62-64 at Novice at BD, despite being constantly above the bit. So it's not the outline per se being marked, but the things leading to the outline - and 'above the bit' is a short snappy phrase describing the symptom of the lack of training elsewhere.

I agree judges should try and find positives in the comments, esp at low level unaffiliated, but the marking should absolutely NOT be different, and therefore you should be aware of what the judge expects. And yes, at Intro they expect an outline!
 
Tnavas said:
We got told the comments, if I get comments like that the test has usually been rubbish with poor marks.
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Er, no. We got told that the comments are negative and relate to contact. That means the test was in keeping with the OP's expectations of her horse, which is young(ish) and green, according to her comments on it. "Rubbish" is a rather damning reflection on what may well have been a reasonable (if not overly successful) and educational outing for the horse.

Besides, you're projecting rather there. I once won a prelim on 70% and went on to rant on a blog about the comments I got (because I didn't approve of them and felt they weren't in keeping with the BD guidelines). It certainly wasn't just me being bitter about a rubbish test ;)
 
JFTD said:
Er, no. We got told that the comments are negative and relate to contact. That means the test was in keeping with the OP's expectations of her horse, which is young(ish) and green, according to her comments on it. "Rubbish" is a rather damning reflection on what may well have been a reasonable (if not overly successful) and educational outing for the horse.

Besides, you're projecting rather there. I once won a prelim on 70% and went on to rant on a blog about the comments I got (because I didn't approve of them and felt they weren't in keeping with the BD guidelines). It certainly wasn't just me being bitter about a rubbish test ;)
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And also people have wildly differing standards. Al is disappointed with less than 65%, whereas I am delighted with more than 55%!
 
amymay said:
I think it's so important for judges to be supportive and encouraging at these lower levels. Criticism can so easily be be given in an encouraging and supportive way.

For many it's their first foray in to dressage, and for some their last ad all their hard work is stomped all over...
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well said and a very succinct point
 
Lolo said:
And also people have wildly differing standards. Al is disappointed with less than 65%, whereas I am delighted with more than 55%!
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62% is my cut off. Many people seem to consider 62% to be an indication of failure. I can live with that :p
 
I have to say I enjoy the critique! Means I know exactly what I need to improve on etc... Having someone video from ground is also beneficial as a lot if the time tests can feel better than they look. . in our last test my made decided she was at a pony party and threw a mahoosuve buck at first canter transition and struck off on wrong leg... We got a 4 and a " very disobedient" comment which I will admit did make me smile.
 
OP, don't let this get to you.

You took a very green horse out and were pleased with what you both achieved.

No matter what you do, many Judges have different things they either approve or disapprove of, they may be encouraging or harsh and sometimes it depends on which side of the bed they got out of that morning!

Yes, I feel any encouraging comment does a world of good for any rider at any level but just because this Judge didn't give any....... you keep your chin up and remember all the good points you can take from your test.

Once your horse has gained a few miles and you become a team, I'm sure plenty of positive comments will come your way.

Best wishes.
 
Op I agree with you and I think good judges can be factual without putting people down.

You need to ride lots of tests under various judges before you take the comments of one to heart.
 
3Beasties said:
I'd be interested to see what comments and score you got. Any chance of sharing?
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Yes, I'd be interested too. Comments are very open to interpretation, as referenced on this thread where some people find certain phrases patronising where others are appreciative of them!

I had a (what I felt was) harsh judge the other week, came away feeling very disheartened as I felt I'd done a much better test than was marked. Then ended up writing for the same judge this weekend - it turned out that she's not a harsh marker, but was prepared to use the whole range of marks. I wrote down a 9 and a 2 (not in the same test though! Although the one who got a 2 did get an 8 as well).
 
A few years ago I did have a go at riding club dressage. I get very, very nervous riding a test and it took a lot of guts for me to have a go. It was a mixed experience but I gave up in the end because of negative, unhelpful and sometimes downright rude comments from some judges.
Interestingly, the best and most helpful judges were listed judges who spent most of their time judging affiliated; although I didn't always get good marks from these judges I did get very encouraging comments, sometimes with useful 'next steps' -eg, after a walk and trot test on my 5 year old the judge said 'Good potential with this partnership! Your priority should be developing the suppleness in that right bend as he is a little one sided at the moment!' Even with a score of 58% I was happy with that.

But some of the judges were literally people that the organisers had dragged in at the last minute, some with very limited experience themselves. After doing one test I was given 5s for every single thing on the page with the comment 'above the bit' for the first two movements, shortened to 'ATB' for the rest. Absolutely nothing else and no comment in the box at the bottom. Talk about stating the obvious - what was I supposed to learn from that? Lots of people complained about this judge and the riding club apologised but some of the subsequent judges weren't a lot better and it was possible to have an entire sheet full of negatives. Now some of you may thrive on that but not everyone does. At the same time the riding club organisers were having meetings to decide how they could get more people to come along and have a go at dressage...
The worst comment I ever got was 'Nice horse, shame about the riding!' Personally I think this is just rude. At the time someone said to me 'Dressage is only for the thick skinned' and that's when I decided it wasn't for me; I may be thick skinned in other areas of life but to me any riding activity must, overall, be enjoyable.
I'm not expecting judges to lie or tread on eggshells but just a little bit of encouragement will often be the difference between someone either giving up or persevering. And before anyone says I wasn't ready to compete - even at the lowest level - my instructor was more than happy with me in lessons and encouraging me to have a go.
I think that some of those judges who were so negative had forgotten what it was like to start out. Perhaps some were naturally talented and super-confident, but surely they should recognise that others do get nervous and confidence needs to grow.
 
Moomin1 said:
OP it does come across like you don't take criticism very well. Don't let one test wind you up so much. Take it as a lesson to improve, which you already admit you know there is room for. You already pointed out that you know what the positives were, so you don't need the judge to tell you.
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imho no one takes full out criticism well, constructive criticism I am fine with, in fact it helps,
 
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