Never thought I’d be writing this :(

tristar

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I have not seen the photo so can't comment, but you have made an excellent post. Slight Problem I think is Mr liver yard owner he is nit going to give the lady or the horse a chance in hell to prove he was a right twinkle Richard, she is paid in advance on full livery and I would think that the op is too intimidated ti move said pony. Hubby obviously is worried about wife, does not know horses so will do what many very caring men do when worried and can't sleigh the dragon so to speak, Nd tbey shout.


the livery yard owner problem did occur to me to be honest, an all round difficult situation, op needs to put the horse as first priority to yo`s pride and hubbies position, man up and make decisions, this is the hard part of life, we have to take a stand based on previous decisions ie to buy horse, let yo ride horse, now steep learning curve to eliminate obvious reasons for rearing, its all part of owning a horse ì`m a afraid

why did yo ride horse in the first place?
 

dorsetladette

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the livery yard owner problem did occur to me to be honest, an all round difficult situation, op needs to put the horse as first priority to yo`s pride and hubbies position, man up and make decisions, this is the hard part of life, we have to take a stand based on previous decisions ie to buy horse, let yo ride horse, now steep learning curve to eliminate obvious reasons for rearing, its all part of owning a horse ì`m a afraid

why did yo ride horse in the first place?


I think YO started riding to 'help' OP as horse was a bit nappy from what I recall. I think this all relates to the feed the YO also recommended for weight gain (could be wrong) as the timing fits.

How long is the livery paid up to? OP could use this to her advantage in a round about sort of way. I'm gonna say livery paid to the end of August for example - YO refuses to ride the horse - so no one ride the horse. Give him this time to be a horse, get to know him on the ground/in the field/in the stable. Use YO grass to build up some weight (Dr green) change his diet and let the rocket fuel feeds get out of his system. Worm him, get his jabs up to date (while vet visits get them to give him a check over for anything obvious). Generally get him looking, feeling like a loved horse again.
All the time between now and the end of the paid livery be researching and visiting breaking/schooling yards ready for him to move to the right one for him/OP. Go and have a coffee with these people (professionals) and explain everything. You can get a better feel for something when you talk to people face to face (IMHO). If you feel intimidated by someone their yard isn't for you, if they explain things in a way that puts you at ease explain that they can't give a time frame until they have assessed the horse for a couple of weeks (an example) they are probably the ones for you.

I'd use the time your 'stuck' with the unhelpful YO to get everything set up for your horse to have a good restart and positive educational experience.

As has been mentioned above I very much doubt you will get your money back from the dealer. So, I think its now about damage limitations. Your horse might come good and be just what you wanted. If not, at least you are setting him up for a future as a useful horse for someone. Then you can find your perfect match and take this experience with you.
 

Tiddlypom

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Why does everyone scope for ulcers ? Just treat the animal with gastroguard in the first place, it's pretty obvious if it's the right treatment or not quite soon. Saves on the transport to the vets twice, and the scoping twice and is slot kinder to the animal too.
Because if it’s not ulcers, but hind gut acidosis instead, you will have wasted your money and the horse will be in discomfort for longer.

Vet, chiro vet and me were all convinced that one of mine had ulcers. I asked if we could skip the scope and go straight for gastroguard. Vet said we ought to confirm the ulcers first - we were all surprised that she was clear. Mare then responded very favourably to the Succeed supplement for hind gut acidosis - there are no reliable tests for HGA on a live horse, only on post mortem exam.
 

paddy555

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to be honest , i saw your pic of prince somewhere last week, can`t find it now, but from what i remember, i would not be riding a horse in that state, try to think of it like this , he is thin, he has no muscle, and he has been carted from pillar to post recently, shipped across seas etc.

if he came here i would have given him time to settle, done lots of handling and probably walked him out in hand to get to know him, when he has a little weight on him i would have done loose lunging and lunging in very large squares, and some small pole work, all according to his energy levels, and i would do this with a thick pad under his saddle, yes use the saddle in hand, and sit on him in the yard, just to keep him in the game.

i feel this horse has no muscle, from your photos, and needs prep to build up some muscles to move himself, carry himself, and eventually carry himself and the rider without discomfort, no pressure to actually work, just gentle nagging, as i call it, lots of warming up, and up through the gears and back down, somewhere safe.

as he has had no serious investigations, no one here knows whether or not it is something or nothing, it could well be something simple.

i `ve had new horses try rearing, just because they had too much energy, after a few days never did it again i`m sure others will rear because of painetc

there seems to be a lot of furking about in the dark going on here, if you like the horse let fog clear take good advice and run through a few obvious possibilities , make a list, go through it, and take loads of time to think things through with the horse and his reactions

I wasn't going to post on here again as it seemed pointless, you are right about the furking in the dark ( never heard that before but I love it)
Advice is given and I am sure half of it is not listened to and the poor horse is at the centre of it all.
I would suggest one of the first things that should have been done is to get on the dodgy dealers page and find out about the dealer. Several people suggested it but it appeared to get little response. Someone will know him if he is dogdy. Someone will probably know him anyway. If he is then there will also be people who have had dealings with him and will know how to approach the matter. ie will you have to push him to court, is he all mouth and no trousers, how he gets his horses and what he does with them. There is a name for his enterprise and his address must be on the receipt. It cannot be too difficult to find horse keepers local to that area. O/P even has a relative in Ireland.

I agree with all your settling in bit and moving on in baby steps. I would have done that. I have always let horses settle in. If they can only be controlled because I jump on their back when they come out of the lorry and are confused then they are not for me. i don't understand all this rushing. They come to live with me for life.

This approach would also have helped if Prince had been given bute. The bute would have worn off and, if he had problems, they would have started to show up. It may only have been slightly stiff, slightly lame, a bit niggly but they could have been investigated.

Totally agree with dorsetladette about damage limitation as being the best way forward and to help Prince but OP doesn't seem interested in that for some reason.
 

Pippity

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Because if it’s not ulcers, but hind gut acidosis instead, you will have wasted your money and the horse will be in discomfort for longer.

Vet, chiro vet and me were all convinced that one of mine had ulcers. I asked if we could skip the scope and go straight for gastroguard. Vet said we ought to confirm the ulcers first - we were all surprised that she was clear. Mare then responded very favourably to the Succeed supplement for hind gut acidosis - there are no reliable tests for HGA on a live horse, only on post mortem exam.

I had a similar situation. The vet said she was gobsmacked that the scope was one of the cleanest she'd ever seen. (My issue turned out to be a badly-fitting saddle, despite it having been given the all-clear by my fitter.)
 

The unicorn

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I really feel for Karen she is really in big mass. The dealer is threatening with suing her if she sends the horse back . He will probably make up a butch of lies and probably accuse her of ruining the horse if it does end up in court. I now you husband wants the money back but I don’t think it worth the stress and upset if the dealer does go down the legal road.
 

stormox

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Hi, not to be negative, but as someone living in Ireland who has two daughters riding at a high level on ponies and do some breeding and buying and selling of Connemaras, unfortunately I believe there isnt a hope of you getting your money back. It would be difficult enough if you were living here but unless you were dealing with a very well known dealership, who frankly would only be dealing with animals worth 10K plus, who were worried about an international reputation would you have a chance. And those type of dealers I dare say wouldn't have allowed this to happen in the first place.
Occasionally someone in Ireland will take an animal back from a purchaser in Ireland, if the new rider feels its not suitable after a couple of weeks but they do that usually just on the basis of being nice. Once the animal gets to your yard/livery etc. most sellers, even private ones revert to "buyer beware" and on horses and ponies at this price range use the "was fine at my yard" "never did that before" defence. Unless you had a blood test held independently by a vet for 6 months its very difficult, and that isnt always foolproof either.
I say that not to put the boot in but I think you are better off removing that as an option - that then I thinks makes your choices easier.

For example, here is a case that was in the Irish courts, it took 7 years and the plantiff is a very wealthy man who is Irish and has lots of good connections. It also was blatant fraud (bought 1 pony, got sent a different one that was inferior) so a bit more clearcut than your case, he also had deep pockets, lots of connections and was happy to wait 7 years for justice. Most regular people wouldn't have the money, patience or perseverance to pursue this.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/cri...n-over-sale-of-wrong-pony-to-family-1.3846001

I am in Ireland and I took an Irish dealer to small claims court. I believe you can use them up to 2500eu. I won a refund of my money, it was very easy to do and totally on line bar the actual court appearance.
 

Winters100

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I think YO started riding to 'help' OP as horse was a bit nappy from what I recall. I think this all relates to the feed the YO also recommended for weight gain (could be wrong) as the timing fits.



I'd use the time your 'stuck' with the unhelpful YO to get everything set up for your horse to have a good restart and positive educational experience.

I'm not sure that OP feels that she is stuck with an unhelpful YO. From what was written he rode the horse more forcefully than she would, but since she is a novice I would expect that. It may be that he did everything in a perfectly acceptable way but the horse still reared for whatever reason. It also subsequently did the same with OP while just being asked to walk to the school.

Whatever any of us would do on acquiring a new horse, and of course we all have different opinions, whether to allow time to settle in or to get into a routine without delay, the fact remains that this horse was sold as a novice ride. In my opinion she did all the right things in keeping it on full livery with an experienced YO, asking him to nip some napping in the bud by riding the horse for her. I would never expect rearing from a horse sold as suitable for a novice, however YO rode it.

As I understand Kiera is still thinking about what to do, and as so many experienced owners have differing views about this I think we can say that any of the options have some merit. It is a horrid situation and only Kiera can know what is best in the circumstances - and let's not forget that the harsh reality of finances do play a huge part in this.
 

milliepops

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I'm not sure that OP feels that she is stuck with an unhelpful YO. From what was written he rode the horse more forcefully than she would, but since she is a novice I would expect that. It may be that he did everything in a perfectly acceptable way but the horse still reared for whatever reason. It also subsequently did the same with OP while just being asked to walk to the school.

Whatever any of us would do on acquiring a new horse, and of course we all have different opinions, whether to allow time to settle in or to get into a routine without delay, the fact remains that this horse was sold as a novice ride. In my opinion she did all the right things in keeping it on full livery with an experienced YO, asking him to nip some napping in the bud by riding the horse for her. I would never expect rearing from a horse sold as suitable for a novice, however YO rode it.

As I understand Kiera is still thinking about what to do, and as so many experienced owners have differing views about this I think we can say that any of the options have some merit. It is a horrid situation and only Kiera can know what is best in the circumstances - and let's not forget that the harsh reality of finances do play a huge part in this.
I do agree with this post. I think there's been a lot of conjecture about what's happened or what the evil YO has been doing to ruin the chances of this horse settling in. none of us really know that's what has happened. From the outside, the OP seems to have done all the right things (since doing the big wrong thing of buying a horse unseen, but even in that naive act, it's not really her fault that a horse suitable for a first time owner was not what she ended up with, as that's what she had gone looking for).
 

Keira 8888

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I wasn't going to post on here again as it seemed pointless, you are right about the furking in the dark ( never heard that before but I love it)
Advice is given and I am sure half of it is not listened to and the poor horse is at the centre of it all.
I would suggest one of the first things that should have been done is to get on the dodgy dealers page and find out about the dealer. Several people suggested it but it appeared to get little response. Someone will know him if he is dogdy. Someone will probably know him anyway. If he is then there will also be people who have had dealings with him and will know how to approach the matter. ie will you have to push him to court, is he all mouth and no trousers, how he gets his horses and what he does with them. There is a name for his enterprise and his address must be on the receipt. It cannot be too difficult to find horse keepers local to that area. O/P even has a relative in Ireland.

I agree with all your settling in bit and moving on in baby steps. I would have done that. I have always let horses settle in. If they can only be controlled because I jump on their back when they come out of the lorry and are confused then they are not for me. i don't understand all this rushing. They come to live with me for life.

This approach would also have helped if Prince had been given bute. The bute would have worn off and, if he had problems, they would have started to show up. It may only have been slightly stiff, slightly lame, a bit niggly but they could have been investigated.

Totally agree with dorsetladette about damage limitation as being the best way forward and to help Prince but OP doesn't seem interested in that for some reason.
Oh my goodness - I’m so shocked you would say that. I have investigated the dealer fully. They have an international reputation. They have 5 star reviews from last week to 5 years ago. Of course I am interested in pursuing any angle that can help me or this horse. If you are talking in terms if due diligence let me reassure you - I have done this. They are not on the dodgy dealers page.

As for damage limitation - I have been up pretty much every night from 11pm to 4pm researching - I have paid for Prince to have a vetting, dentist, farrier, saddle fitter, second visit from saddle fitter to check half pad, professional trainer, - what more damage limitation could I reasonably have been expected to do. I have observed this horse for weeks without stressing him and been told conflicting “professional views” from the very beginning. I haven’t worked him enough, I’ve worked him TOO much, I havent been gentle enough, Ive been TOO gentle. All I am trying to do is the best thing by this horse. It’s causing rifts within my whole family because they don’t understand why I won’t give up on him. You can accuse me of buying unseen and buying too big a horse and you are absolutely RIGHT, but please, please, dont accuse me of not caring or not trying to Investigate and rectify this situation. I am doing my very best
 

Wishfilly

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Keira, please make sure you look after your own health in all of this- you've been put in an awful situation, and from what you say it sounds like Prince is not in any distress in the field. You don't have to try and solve this or come to a firm decision in a few days, despite what people online may say.

You will always find conflicting professional views in the horse world. There's more than one good way of doing things (and several less good ones). I think, sometimes, it's easier to pick one person you really trust, and follow their advice, rather than trying to take everyone's on board.

You sound like someone with your heart in the right place, and it sounds like you are trying your best, which is all anyone can do. It's so easy for all of us to say what we'd do from behind a keyboard- but I doubt anyone on here can honestly say they've done everything perfectly with every horse they've ridden/owned.
 

misst

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Kiera I wasn't going to comment again but just feel that you have done your best and some of the things you have been accused of are a bit rich. As I said previously we have ALL made mistakes so lets not all get on our high horses. OP has tried so hard and is not walking away but she does need time and support not bombardment with speculation and accusation.
Kiera wishing you all the best and hoping you do find the right horse eventually.
 

Cherryblossom

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I think it’s perfectly clear that you’re a wonderful owner to Prince. Take time to decide what course of action is best for you, your family and Prince. You need to make a decision that you can live with.
And yes, buying unseen is risky; but look at how many threads there’s been over the years of experienced owners running into major problems. There’s an active thread at the moment about your biggest equine mistake; it can happen to anyone.
 

splashgirl45

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as others have said, you have done a good job with prince and have tried to do the right thing. someone said you had rushed, i think you took it pretty slowly and let him get used to you and his new home and then started to ride and although it started out ok things didnt go according to plan and you asked your YO to ride him. you have said YO wasnt nasty in any way just more firm than you were and if he was as advertised he wouldnt be rearing when someone asks him to go forward. whatever you decide please dont fall out at home over this horse as you have your children to think about and a broken relationship wont help. you have had lots of opinions on here and maybe it is time to stop looking at this thread and make your mind up about how you will proceed. it would be nice to have an update if you feel able to cope with the comments. whatever you do, good luck and try not to beat yourself up...
 

Patchworkpony

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OP you talked about Prince being a field ornament if necessary all I can say is good for you. I was sold a lame pony when I was young and had no one to guide me. I kept him as a pet and never regretted giving him a good home. There are so many unscrupulous people out there who will unload any poor horse onto any poor sucker. However we need good guys like you who care. Whatever the outcome with Prince please try to take it in your stride and remember he may be your first horse but he won’t be your last. One of the downsides of keeping horses is they will often break your heart but the upside is that they teach us so much about dealing with life and our own strengths.

Horses and particularly native ponies taught me to take things on the chin and this attitude that I learnt from equine ownership has got me through some really sticky moments in life. Please accept no personal blame for any of this it isn’t your fault. I applaud you for caring so much and know that you WILL come out the other side.
 

Tihamandturkey

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Hi OP.
Just read this whole thread & I just want to offer my support.
It's a whole mess & you are doing your best. Take care of yourself, otherwise you'll do your OWN health harm.
You've had lots of opinions, good & not so good, kind & not very kind at all.
I hope you are ok.

This 100% - look after yourself x
 

Firefly9410

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I really feel for Karen she is really in big mass. The dealer is threatening with suing her if she sends the horse back . He will probably make up a butch of lies and probably accuse her of ruining the horse if it does end up in court. I now you husband wants the money back but I don’t think it worth the stress and upset if the dealer does go down the legal road.
Dealers would not have a leg to stand on if they tried to sue Keira. Sue for what?! Legally she is entitled to a refund. It is scare tactics for intimidation to make her go away. Ditto saying she was unreasonable and aggressive to his wife or whatever the exact wording was. Trying to make Keira doubt herself and go away.
Oh my goodness - I’m so shocked you would say that. I have investigated the dealer fully. They have an international reputation. They have 5 star reviews from last week to 5 years ago. Of course I am interested in pursuing any angle that can help me or this horse. If you are talking in terms if due diligence let me reassure you - I have done this. They are not on the dodgy dealers page.

As for damage limitation - I have been up pretty much every night from 11pm to 4pm researching - I have paid for Prince to have a vetting, dentist, farrier, saddle fitter, second visit from saddle fitter to check half pad, professional trainer, - what more damage limitation could I reasonably have been expected to do. I have observed this horse for weeks without stressing him and been told conflicting “professional views” from the very beginning. I haven’t worked him enough, I’ve worked him TOO much, I havent been gentle enough, Ive been TOO gentle. All I am trying to do is the best thing by this horse. It’s causing rifts within my whole family because they don’t understand why I won’t give up on him. You can accuse me of buying unseen and buying too big a horse and you are absolutely RIGHT, but please, please, dont accuse me of not caring or not trying to Investigate and rectify this situation. I am doing my very best
Ah but if it did not happen publicly online then it obviously never happened #eyeroll! Some people live their lives online and forget others do not. Ignore them. :)

Did the rearing start before or after Prince was worked in the arena? In addition to perhaps bute wearing off and a perhaps out of work horse being brought back into work for the first time in ages, there is the factor of many slightly crocked horses being fine for hacking or field work but their broken bodies being unable to cope with the constant turns and circles of schooling or the arena surface itself. If you have the vet and they find any lameness a cheap solution to try is a bute trial which is as it sounds and it either works to make a horse comfortable or rideable or else it does not. Lots of old horses happily pottering about in light work on bute. It is your decision if you think working a buted horse is ethical or not. For some people their decision would depend on the diagnosis which a bute trial alone will not give you.
 

fredflop

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Felt the need to comment as others have, but only to applaud you on your sincerity and calmness throughout this full thread. It's clear you have the horses needs at heart.
Whatever you decide to do I'm sure you will do the right thing by you and your family. All the best.
❤️

Pretty much this... there have been the usual “gossips” on this thread.... whatever the OP says is then twisted. The horse is an ex racer, the YO is some kind of evil bully monster etc etc
 

Slightlyconfused

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full veterinary work up required.

Please don’t offer the horse as free to good home, people can be very believable and sell them on so at best they do the rounds of the bin end dealers.


Yep this, send into the vet for a full work up along with the videos of the advert.

Also the hives, what is he being fed? One of mine comes up in hives when fed alfalfa. Turns him into a hyped up child
 

tristar

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its well known that tb`s tend to go up at the front, when stressed, if the horse was a little nappy, the thing i would do would be to back off completely and not allow the horse to rear.

i would not look to the family for support, or the yard owner, dealing with tbs and other highly bred or highly strung horses needs a confident and quiet approach understanding where the horse is coming from, not condemning them out of hand, but this calls for experience and a kind of horsemanship that sees the problem for what it is.

ok we can`t see the reality and be there in person, just say what we would do with the info available, its only opinions, based on what we have been through ourselves, in the hope of parting the black clouds of misery that these horsey situation bring, and hoping that some sunshine can come out of the outcome or at the very least the clarity of understanding some of what is happening might lead to progress.
 

The unicorn

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Dealers would not have a leg to stand on if they tried to sue Keira. Sue for what?! Legally she is entitled to a refund. It is scare tactics for intimidation to make her go away. Ditto saying she was unreasonable and aggressive to his wife or whatever the exact wording was. Trying to make Keira doubt herself and go away.
My friend was sued by dealer a few years ago she bought a pony turned out to be a complete nut job. (Dangerous bucking)The dealer ended up suing my friend for returning the horse. The dealer end winning because of the lack of evidence. My friend sued the dealer after that and ended getting the money back.

Op if you’re going down the route get video footage of the horse misbehaving. if my friend had proof she would have won the first time. I would not fall out with your family over a horse.
 

FestiveFuzz

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My friend was sued by dealer a few years ago she bought a pony turned out to be a complete nut job. (Dangerous bucking)The dealer ended up suing my friend for returning the horse. The dealer end winning because of the lack of evidence. My friend sued the dealer after that and ended getting the money back.

Op if you’re going down the route get video footage of the horse misbehaving. if my friend had proof she would have won the first time. I would not fall out with your family over a horse.

I'm not sure how this would work? Buying from a dealer would surely have entitled your friend to return the horse within 30 days regardless of reason so I'm not sure how the dealer could consequently sue someone for returning a horse, what was the basis for them suing your friend?
 

Trouper

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I would not fall out with your family over a horse
Well there's falling out and then there's having a considered and careful discussion of all the issues involved and respecting the other person's point of view. But at the end of the day, if the horse's welfare was at stake, I think I would have to fight his corner for him. I am not sure I would feel the same about the relationship if an animal's welfare were being sacrificed to it.
 

Ish2020

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I only read this now I have been on this forum for awhile. I don’t think this is a horse for you. Normality Tb aren’t suitable for first time owners and buying your first horse unseen is a disaster in the making . I think it’s funny that people think Irish horse are way cheaper in reality you get what you’re pay for. A good first horse in Ireland would cost you at least €5000. I learn that the hard way. I was 18 when I bought my first horse she was very green but she was 13 when I bought her. Op you need to sell or return the horse before someone gets serious hurt. I not trying to be harsh but I telling the truth. I say it how I see it I don’t sugar coat it or lie about it.
 
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