Never thought I’d be writing this :(

CanteringCarrot said:
As for the pro, I do agree some "bring out the worst" in horses or push them the wrong way. However, this horse being nappy while being led in signals to me he is in pain and dreading the possibility of work. I think this is the same horse that also broke away and got loose? I could be mixing up threads here. But it seems like something is clearly bothering him. He could have a hell of an attitude, but more times than not, it is pain related.

I do admit I have a horse that plays jokes on others, as in he will make a different handler believe he cannot walk through a puddle, trot in hand, or be a productive member of society, but there is a difference between "testing" or needing a sharp handler, and a clear demonstration of resistance due to pain. No horse that isn't driven by insanity (a screw loose), a total rotten rider, or pain, WANTS to rear up, high, with a rider. When a horse loses self preservation, there is a serious issue, IMO.
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Yes this makes sende
splashgirl45 said:
it does not help for people to say that they would keep the horse, the OP feels bad enough and none of us know her financial situation nd these posts are not helping her to make any sort of decision, just making her feel even worse than she does. from her posts she sounds like a very caring person who is going through hell trying to decide what to do. there are enough posts stating different options and she needs to think everything out for herself now..
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thank you for this xx
 
Bellaboo18 said:
I won't list all the things you've done wrong in the last month but please get something suitable for a complete beginner next time don't mistake the kind posts for giving you a pat on the back. You can't ride better than a professional.
Please don't attempt to give me advice, it's not me that finds themselve in this unfortunate position...I wonder why that is.
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I honestly don’t want to argue and I wasn’t trying to give you advice. I’m sorry if it came over that way, I’m upset. I love this horse and actually - it would help me if you told me what you think I’ve done wrong with my care decisions - anything you point out won’t be taken as criticism I promise. I will take it as positive feedback x
 
@Keira 8888

something that’s just popped into my head and may give you something to think about.
Lets assume you keep Prince, get the full vet work up and possibly find a cure/solution/reason (or however you want to put it) to the issues. spend ££££ Trying to resolve said issues (if indeed there are any/any can be found)
assuming the problems can be fixed, would you, hand on heart feel 100% comfortable getting back on Prince? Or letting your daughter ride him again?
 
CanteringCarrot said:
Look, I love ex-racers, I've owned one, I've dealt with and ridden many, but they can certainly be too much. They really need the right feed and usually thrive on a consistent exercise program. When they start feeling good from proper nutrition and getting fit again, they can be a handful, as can horses of other breeding. However, an ex-racer is likely to have some mileage and old injuries. Not necessarily outright soundness issues, but it doesn't surprise me when there are a few things lurking beneath the surface on such a horse.
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I agree but the OP did not buy an ex racehorse, or not knowingly if it is one, she bought an ISH that had hunted, evented, been used in a RS and needed a quieter life or that was the story given by the dealer, it seems to have jumped to being a tb and ex racehorse as if that is the reason for it being not suitable, the OP has made some mistakes but the dealer who sold this horse, had a new passport issued is at fault far more than the OP who has tried her best, we can go round in circles making up various scenarios but the OP should not be made to feel guilty if she does decide to return him although I suspect she will feel pressured into having investigations done, I hope she tracks down the original passport first as it may answer a lot of questions.
 
Keira you come across as caring and humble. Some of the people on here have been very unkind really.
Mistakes - my god I've made some in my time and I'm not proud but I hope I learned.
You must do what is best for your family and Prince and that is almost certainly involving some compromise.
I have already said what I would do but I am not you.
I wish you luck and peace with your outcome.
 
be positive said:
I agree but the OP did not buy an ex racehorse, or not knowingly if it is one, she bought an ISH that had hunted, evented, been used in a RS and needed a quieter life or that was the story given by the dealer, it seems to have jumped to being a tb and ex racehorse as if that is the reason for it being not suitable, the OP has made some mistakes but the dealer who sold this horse, had a new passport issued is at fault far more than the OP who has tried her best, we can go round in circles making up various scenarios but the OP should not be made to feel guilty if she does decide to return him although I suspect she will feel pressured into having investigations done, I hope she tracks down the original passport first as it may answer a lot of questions.
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I don't think I'm making up a scenario as much as I am trying to rationalize what could've triggered a behavior change in the horse, if that makes sense. I do not know if the horse is an ISH or ex-racer, so you've got me there. I can't keep track of it all to be honest.

As far as the OP trying her best, we all have different definitions of what is trying ones best in the situation, so there is bound to be disagreement there. It doesn't have to get nasty or insulting. It's just how it is. 2 horse people, 3 opinions and all that. The OP can sort through those opinions and ultimately take action, or not. I may or may not agree with the outcome, but it's not for me to decide. I/we can only offer advice.

Tracking down more info about the horse could prove helpful, but I'm not sure what the odds are of that.
 
Mikas-mom said:
@Keira 8888

something that’s just popped into my head and may give you something to think about.
Lets assume you keep Prince, get the full vet work up and possibly find a cure/solution/reason (or however you want to put it) to the issues. spend ££££ Trying to resolve said issues (if indeed there are any/any can be found)
assuming the problems can be fixed, would you, hand on heart feel 100% comfortable getting back on Prince? Or letting your daughter ride him again?
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I have been thinking about this. A lot. And unfortunately the answer is no :(
 
Oh dear, this is all very sad.

There is no easy way out unfortunately. Even if Keira sends Prince back and gets a refund she is then going to always wonder where he is and if he's OK, as that's what happens once a horse gets under your skin, especially your first.

So the choices are:

Send him back (as long as she can forget about him, possibly doubtful as she loves him).

Give him to the cousin in Ireland.

See if one of the charities will take him (doubtful, but with horses selling so well - who knows?)

Have him shot

Send him to an amazing trainer such as Michael Peace (expensive but when you consider the money spent over a horses' lifetime maybe not).

Go down the full vet route scans/x rays etc

Move to another yard away from the respected YO who has possibly tried to bully him through the behaviour/made him sore with the lunging etc and start over when the hives/crab flies/alfalfa issues are sorted. As has been said on here, some 'professionals' suck.

If it was me and I had the cash I'd send him off to Michael Peace (but that's just what I would do, we all have different views and I respect everyone's).
 
Wishfilly said:
ETA: I actually think long term, returning horses like this is the way to go. It may not be the best thing for that individual horse, but the less dealers get away with scamming people, then the less they are likely to do it, which long term will be better for everyone.
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This, 100%. To me everyone saying OP should keep the horse in retirement or PTS and not get a refund from the dealer, its no different really to people buying a puppy off a puppy farmer because they feel sorry for it. Its better for the individual animal of course, but its supporting a business that shouldn't be supported.
 
Amirah said:
Oh dear, this is all very sad.

There is no easy way out unfortunately. Even if Keira sends Prince back and gets a refund she is then going to always wonder where he is and if he's OK, as that's what happens once a horse gets under your skin, especially your first.

So the choices are:

Send him back (as long as she can forget about him, possibly doubtful as she loves him).

Give him to the cousin in Ireland.

See if one of the charities will take him (doubtful, but with horses selling so well - who knows?)

Have him shot

Send him to an amazing trainer such as Michael Peace (expensive but when you consider the money spent over a horses' lifetime maybe not).

Go down the full vet route scans/x rays etc

Move to another yard away from the respected YO who has possibly tried to bully him through the behaviour/made him sore with the lunging etc and start over when the hives/crab flies/alfalfa issues are sorted. As has been said on here, some 'professionals' suck.

If it was me and I had the cash I'd send him off to Michael Peace (but that's just what I would do, we all have different views and I respect everyone's).
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I’d doubt Michael peace/similar trainer would touch the horse without a full vet work up first
 
laura_nash said:
This, 100%. To me everyone saying OP should keep the horse in retirement or PTS and not get a refund from the dealer, its no different really to people buying a puppy off a puppy farmer because they feel sorry for it. Its better for the individual animal of course, but its supporting a business that shouldn't be supported.
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I think the aim is to not buy the puppy/horse in the first place.
 
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Keira 8888 said:
I have been thinking about this. A lot. And unfortunately the answer is no :(
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Exactly as I expected.
I think in that case it’s pretty clear the best course of action to take, as much as you love prince, you bought a horse that you and your daughter could ride and enjoy. You’re not going to get that with this horse.
of course it’s easy for all of us on the forum to tell you what you should/shouldn’t do as it doesn’t directly involve us.
But if you’re not going to have the trust there to ride him after pouring ££££ into him, assuming he can be ‘fixed’ then it should make things a bit easier.
you have done far more than a lot of first time buyers would have done in this situation, so you have nothing to feel guilty about should you decide to send him back Xx
 
Sorry, it's probably me where the idea of it being an ex-racehorse has come from, and that's only because I have seen similar scams before in a job I used to have. It's not just that ex-racers often have a lower value for various reasons. It's also to do with the fact that their racing names are (mostly) unique and that makes it relatively easy to track down their history online - I've also seen similar with other horses that have unique/unusual passport names.

Obviously I don't know if the horse is in fact an ex-racer, and the double microchip + duplicate passport may be a legitimate mistake as well (although the dealer's initial reaction suggests otherwise).

I didn't want to add confusion to the thread- but I do think it's likely OP has been deliberately scammed.

WRT the rearing, even if it is down to a particular person's way of riding, or feeding, or some other thing that can be easily solved, I think it's clear the horse has an extreme reaction to certain situations or is in a lot of pain (or possibly both). Even if the issue is solved, the behaviour may re-emerge next time the horse is stressed or may continue due to remembered pain- personally I'm not sure I'd ever feel comfortable putting a child on a horse that has reared and nearly gone over.
 
Keira 8888 said:
I disagree. I think it is absolutely setting him up to succeed. He had a long journey from Ireland. He was underweight. I needed to get to know him and observe him from afar. I think sitting in the field watching him for the first week was a wonderful start - and allowed me (a novice) to get on and ride him successfully when a professional rider couldn’t. Never underestimate letting a new horse have time to settle and get to know you and their new surroundings.
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You sound like a very nice person and i do believe you had the horses best interests at heart and were guided by 'professionals' but it wasn't setting him up to succeed.

Horse arrives poor from Ireland - he was supposed to have been a quite schoolmaster, i would have ridden him quietly even if he was poor.
Then you fed him up - on Alfalfa which can cause a really extreme reaction in some horses, rendering some unrideable.
You sat in his field for the first week watching him - he needed to be doing something, working and learning even if it was groundwork to establish some sort of relationship.
Then when he got hives you continued to work him - maybe this was your YO's advice but i wouldn't have ridden him until they were sorted.

I'm confused by what outcome you want from this? The dealer offer to refund you and had a lorry in the UK to collect him but you said no way is he going back? So is sending him back still an option or no?

i think the posts about the horse being pts are extreme and the horse hasn't had a chance imo. I said it before but get him off ALL feed and leave him out in a field for a month. Then get a different pro in to ride him and let them assess him. Even if you dont feel safe riding him you could sell him on as a useful riding horse.

There is a lot of knowledge on this forum and i dont think anyone underestimates giving a new horse time but any horse that is ridden should be able to be tacked up and ridden straight from the lorry if need be. Yes they may take time to 'settle' in their surroundings but they should be ready to ride straight away.
 
Bellaboo18 said:
I thought TPOs post was really good.
To be fair as much as I feel sorry for you and more so your horse and I wouldn't judge you on your next steps. Your talking about 4 weeks, you cant possibly say you've given him whatever time was needed.

Whatever time would be keeping him.
Whatever money would be a workup.

You're clearly kind but your management has shown your lack of knowledge and would affect most horses. Only sitting in a field for the first week with a horse sounds sweet but isn't setting them up to succeed.
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I never ride any new horse immediately. But that’s besides the point. If I bought a ‘safe’ horse, as far as I’m concerned it can stand in the field for a month before I get on it and I wouldn’t expect it to stand up on its hind legs. That is not normal behaviour. So unless we’re not getting the full story and something pretty untoward was done to the horse whilst it was being ridden, I can’t see what you think the op has done so wrong with this horse ??‍♀️
 
Bellaboo18 said:
I won't list all the things you've done wrong in the last month but please get something suitable for a complete beginner next time don't mistake the kind posts for giving you a pat on the back. You can't ride better than a professional.
Please don't attempt to give me advice, it's not me that finds themselve in this unfortunate position...I wonder why that is.
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Nasty and totally uncalled for.
 
CanteringCarrot said:
Not to hijack, but this could help the OP anyway, but what are legitimate reasons for a horse having 2 microchips? My not so creative brain can't think of any.
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I had a TB with ahis original weatherbys passport, and there were 2 chip numbers. After 1st no. It was stamped 'unable to locate chip' with vets sig, and underneath was the 2nd chip number.
 
Amymay said:
I never ride any new horse immediately. But that’s besides the point. If I bought a ‘safe’ horse, as far as I’m concerned it can stand in the field for a month before I get on it and I wouldn’t expect it to stand up on its hind legs. That is not normal behaviour. So unless we’re not getting the full story and something pretty untoward was done to the horse whilst it was being ridden, I can’t see what you think the op has done so wrong with this horse ??‍♀️
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I've pmd OP to explain my concerns. It wasn't leaving the horse in the field but the combination of that and feeding him up.
 
indie1282 said:
You sound like a very nice person and i do believe you had the horses best interests at heart and were guided by 'professionals' but it wasn't setting him up to succeed.

Horse arrives poor from Ireland - he was supposed to have been a quite schoolmaster, i would have ridden him quietly even if he was poor.
Then you fed him up - on Alfalfa which can cause a really extreme reaction in some horses, rendering some unrideable.
You sat in his field for the first week watching him - he needed to be doing something, working and learning even if it was groundwork to establish some sort of relationship.
Then when he got hives you continued to work him - maybe this was your YO's advice but i wouldn't have ridden him until they were sorted.

I'm confused by what outcome you want from this? The dealer offer to refund you and had a lorry in the UK to collect him but you said no way is he going back? So is sending him back still an option or no?

i think the posts about the horse being pts are extreme and the horse hasn't had a chance imo. I said it before but get him off ALL feed and leave him out in a field for a month. Then get a different pro in to ride him and let them assess him. Even if you dont feel safe riding him you could sell him on as a useful riding horse.

There is a lot of knowledge on this forum and i dont think anyone underestimates giving a new horse time but any horse that is ridden should be able to be tacked up and ridden straight from the lorry if need be. Yes they may take time to 'settle' in their surroundings but they should be ready to ride straight away.
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100% this
 
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paddy555 said:
I do see that you have done everything by the book. I am not criticising you at all. I think it is important that instead of taking comments as criticism you should realise they are not, they are trying to make sense of your situation in an attempt to help Prince.

Prince has gone from a thread where you were happy riding on 4th July to this one only a few days later. If he was a rearer/had serious problems etc etc etc why did both you and your daughter have such a nice time only a few days ago.

Sometimes you have to forget about the book and think outside the box. Horse keeping has little to do with following the book and doing all the vaccinations etc etc. That is just the accepted norm. It is about intuition. What has happened to cause this?
In your 4th July post you wrote that you had been out alone on country roads, met feral ponies, met cars and a hornet. He was calm. Life was fine.

A horse with such a serious problem would not have done that. At some stage in that ride he would have regressed into his previous nasty habits yet he didn't. Your daughter rode him.

One thing I hadn't noticed before about your post was he met a hornet. I met one several years ago, the horse got stung and was off work for 2 weeks. Looking at him may not have been very obvious but I have no doubt if I had ridden it would have been.

what is causing the hives. We have established you have done the right thing and called the vet. Had the right injection etc, changed the feed but how was/is Prince affected. He may not be or he may be.

Like many people if I had a pound for everytime someone tells me their vet/farrier/rider etc is an extremely respected horse person I would be rich as many others would.

You and your daughter rode Prince happily. Is your YO really that horse person? I have no idea. It is however something to look at. Does Prince dis like men? He certainly won't be the first.
Please don't take this as criticism. It is not. It is trying to find a reason that does not involve either a bullet or sending back to Ireland and a bleak future.
He may well not be suitable for you but if a reason can be found he may be suitable for someone else.
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If your horse was a confirmed rearer then i agree with the above, he wouldn't have gone out quietly around the lanes without something happening imo. Also i know you say that your YO has decades of experience but it does not necessarily mean that the advice is right for this horse. Also how did he ride Prince? Was he forceful? Use a stick? Did he push him or get wound up when he napped/reared? As above there are a lot of horses that dont like men.

What did the vet say about the hives? How long have you stopped the Alfalfa for? Horses are so sensitive to any little thing that sometimes you have to channel your inner Sherlock Holmes to try and decipher what is going on!

You mention using a half pad - did the rearing start after you used this? I know you said that the saddler fitted the saddle with the pad but some horses dont like a half pad. One of mine will bronc in a half pad even when it's correctly fitted - take it off and he's fine.
 
Wishfilly said:
Sorry, it's probably me where the idea of it being an ex-racehorse has come from, and that's only because I have seen similar scams before in a job I used to have. It's not just that ex-racers often have a lower value for various reasons. It's also to do with the fact that their racing names are (mostly) unique and that makes it relatively easy to track down their history online - I've also seen similar with other horses that have unique/unusual passport names.

Obviously I don't know if the horse is in fact an ex-racer, and the double microchip + duplicate passport may be a legitimate mistake as well (although the dealer's initial reaction suggests otherwise).

I didn't want to add confusion to the thread- but I do think it's likely OP has been deliberately scammed.

WRT the rearing, even if it is down to a particular person's way of riding, or feeding, or some other thing that can be easily solved, I think it's clear the horse has an extreme reaction to certain situations or is in a lot of pain (or possibly both). Even if the issue is solved, the behaviour may re-emerge next time the horse is stressed or may continue due to remembered pain- personally I'm not sure I'd ever feel comfortable putting a child on a horse that has reared and nearly gone over.
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I think you are probably correct but the suggestion seems to have taken over the facts that we do know, or at least what the OP understood before purchase, the whole situation does sound like a scam, it is easy enough to set in motion, find attractive cheap horse, make up a nice history, find gullible novice buyer, ideally a long way away so they don't try, get the money, send it off, hope for the best that it lands with someone who spends time getting to know it, falls in love and even if it goes pear shaped they want to do right by their horse so keep it, it is how bin end dealers work, for every good one that does work out well there will be more that do not but very few will be sent back so the dealer keeps going.

A horse that has genuinely been in nice private homes will not end up with this type of dealer very often, they will also not tend to rear when pushed unless they have been pushed too far previously, the YO may have pushed on but I have had many tricky horses in for schooling and very few would have reared just being asked to walk into a school, certainly not anything bought as a novice ride, the odd one may have been a bit nappy but nothing a sharp reminder would not sort out, the few that did go up never went right up apart from 1 with history and 1 from Ireland that reared if anyone approached a fence he was coming into, he had most likely been rapped but he never reared in any other situation.
 
Kiera, I've pmed you, I can't think of anybody in Hampshire that I recommend but I do know of a couple of highly experienced, kind, sensible women trainers in oxon and bucks respectively.

If you could box the horse to them and tell them what you've told us they would give you a sensible plan which might or might not include getting one of their also kind, sensible women work riders to sit on horse and then you would know if it is simply a yard/feed/allergy/heavy handed male rider issue
 
I have looked the photos posted of you riding him in the field. Can you do a bit of sleuthing and find out a bit more about him? 16 years old and two microchips, someone will know something. The H&H sleuths are good at finding stuff out.

Most auctions have online catalogues so you could see what was said about him and follow up on the microchip/passport info.

Is his advert/video still up on the internet? Have you looked on the dodgy dealers facebook page?

Alfalfa sent one of mine off her trolley. I am sure she actually thought she could fly at one point.
 
I think solis microchip could have been lost. He had a pee sized lump on the wrong side of his neck just below his mane. Turns out this was his microchip (all vet could think was he moved at the wrong moment when it was implanted as a foal). So potentially if a vet just ran the scanner over the normal place it wouldn’t have been found.
 
Kamikaze said:
I think solis microchip could have been lost. He had a pee sized lump on the wrong side of his neck just below his mane. Turns out this was his microchip (all vet could think was he moved at the wrong moment when it was implanted as a foal). So potentially if a vet just ran the scanner over the normal place it wouldn’t have been found.
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Microchips can definitely migrate, happens in dogs regularly. That's why we scan the whole body before implanting/when checking. They can also occasionally be faulty, but then I would generally not expect it to read.
 
Theres no point going round in circles about what has/hasn't been done. Shes learned her lesson about buying a horse unseen, I doubt she will do that again. The question now is what to do with Prince. She wont ever trust him with her daughter again..who would. Keira if you had trainer professionals look at him, vet investigations and wait for alfa to get out his system etc.. would you trust him enough to ride yourself again? Im just wondering if you are in a position for your daughter to have a pony for herself while you have Prince? It's an option if you dont want to send him back and can afford to keep two. What is it you want to do moving forward? Also.. is anyone thinking dealer acquired this horse on a five finger discount? Auctions all closed in lockdown, new passport, two microchips... x
 
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