Never thought I’d be writing this :(

[LadyGascoyne]

Unfortunately, Keira, it does sound like someone has seen your inexperience as an opportunity. The human race can really be ghastly sometimes.

I feel awfully sorry for both you and the horse.

In terms of experienced help, I would find a reputable instructor and take them with you to try horses.

If I were your YO or instructor, I would not be encouraging an inexperienced first time owner to buy anything they hadn’t tried and seen in multiple situations. In fact, I’d be looking to suggest a schoolmaster that I knew personally, it at all possible.

Another thing to consider is that a lot of us here have or have had delinquent geriatrics- age is no guarantee that they will be sensible.

 

[Keira 8888]

I totally understand you wanting to get to the bottom of his problem get a good recommended vet to do a proper work up, it might be worth mentioning where yiu are someone on here may know of a good vet you can use, I would also get both of his microchip numbers and look into that as well, please keep us updated.

I will do, thank you XX

 

[ycbm]

It started three weeks after owning him, so a week ago. I rode him in his field after a week and he was perfect. My daughter rode him too. It was only when he was taken from his field that he started to nap and act up. So the rearing started just this week x

This is classic timing for medication wearing off.

 

[Wishfilly]

Kiera, how long have you had him? How many days since he left ireland was it that he reared up?

HHOers, how long does dope stay in a horses system?

It just seems strange that the horse was ok to hack with a novice, feed changes, strange rash/hives and then a "professional"* rides him and he rears.

I don't know how long you've had him but taking any of the dealers changing accounts of his history he has had a lot of changes to adjust to in a very short space of time. Then a feed change (a lot of horses have issues with alfa) and the outbreak of hives. Could it have been something as simple as the girth rubbing/hurting if the hives are in the same area?

* not slighting the experienced rider you put on. Sometimes different riders aren't always liked by every horse. I've seen absolutely plods lose their heads when "better" riders have gotten on and tried to make the horse do something that it can't physically do/doesn't understand and/or not like what could be classed as "strong" riding. You appear to be a lightweight rider so could the fact that a (bigger/stronger?) man got on be a factor?

I'm obviously not excusing the fact that the horse reared. Its far from ideal for a nervous novice. I can't remember what I read now, did you witness it happening Kiera? Did anyone else witness it? Was it a genuine rear up? Some people tell about big rears, and they possibly feel big, but watching from the ground it wasnt really that bad.

It's tricky, and I don't mean this to sound disrespectful, because someone more experienced might have seen it about to happen before it did (& redirect) and spotted the triggers.

The very sensible and adult thing to do is 100% to return him, get the refund and do better know that you know better. However I've still not mastered the sensible and adult thing ?

You can't know what you dont know and that's the tricky bit. You literally wouldn't know who to listen to if there were experienced folk on your yard because so many can talk the talk... most of us have been stung in one way or another having been taking in by someone.

I've missed a few of your threads but will go and read.

How is he kept on the yard? How much turn out on how many acres with how many other horses? What is the grass like? What's he fed? Was he worm counted? Had he had his teeth done? Have you had a saddle fitter? How does his bit and bridle fit? What did your vet do when he was out? Has he had his hooves done since you got him?

Having a horse is a money pit. I can fully appreciate that if someone has paid X for a product and been sold Y that they would be unhappy and want their money back. I would just worry about him going back to the dealer who has done this (if infact they have done anything. It could be the upheaval/feed change/tack fit/skinny horse now getting food and feeling full of the joys/any other 100 things).

If you read the OP, the horse has reared with both the YO and the OP on board and reared several times. The vertical rear OP was on board and the YO thought they were inches from going over on the ground. I do get what you are saying about one rider causing a reaction, but it seems unlikely this is going on in this case- and even if that was the cause of the problem, the horse doesn't sound safe for the OP in any way.

Funnily enough the dentist thought he was actually younger than 16! Very strange!

I am toying with the idea of a full in-depth medical work up so Prince can be saved a vicious circle of this happening again.

I will keep you all updated. I can’t tell you how grateful I am for your support.

If you are going to go down the medical route, then you need to be prepared for it to cost a lot of money, cause a lot of heartache and for you to maybe never get a clear answer. It could be kissing spines. It could be ulcers. It could be something else or a combination of things. It's still very, very likely you will end up with an unridable horse at the end of it all. I can understand wanting to go down this route, but I think you have to have an understanding of what it involves.

Just for my own curiosity, and feel free not to answer, but is the horse a thoroughbred and does he have a weatherbys passport? And if not, does either microchip number start with 9851010?

 

[lme]

One of our horses started rearing vertically. We had her x-rayed (x-rays confirmed it was not kissing spine) and she then had an MRI which showed she had strained her super-spinous ligament. A steroid jab and physio followed by a slow return to work made her a lot more comfortable.

 

[Keira 8888]

Is he insured?

He is - I got quite hefty insurance for vet fees and third party xx

 

[KittenInTheTree]

Funnily enough the dentist thought he was actually younger than 16! Very strange!

I am toying with the idea of a full in-depth medical work up so Prince can be saved a vicious circle of this happening again.

I will keep you all updated. I can’t tell you how grateful I am for your support.

This would be the decent thing to do, and you might as well make use of your insurance - that's what it's there for, after all. Presumably, you could also get to the bottom of the extra microchip, and then let the passport agencies involved pursue whoever is behind that.

 

[Flame_]

I am toying with the idea of a full in-depth medical work up so Prince can be saved a vicious circle of this happening again.

An infinite number of things can be wrong with a horse. Some can be found, some can't. Some can be fixed, some can't. Even if you find and fix a physical problem the odds of the horse's behavior resolving itself aren't particularly good. If you can get your money back just take it and move on. Write the whole experience off as a lesson learnt and start over with a very different, less trusting approach.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Whatever else you decide to do, I suggest that you make sure that your vet got a note of the 2 microchip numbers and pursue that, which sounds very dodgy. That should at least give you some justice for Prince.

 

[Upthecreek]

I feel for you, but I absolutely could not send this horse back and live with myself. I would rather stand next to him being shot. I’m guessing he looks the part and will just get moved on every time it goes wrong, which is inevitably what will happen unless somebody is prepared to spend time and money on investigations or has the balls to put him out of his misery

Did you have a 5 stage vetting with bloods taken before you purchased the horse? If not please learn the lesson that if a horse is everything you are looking for but for a cheap price, it is probably too good to be true, particularly in the current market.

I’m sorry if I sound harsh, but I’m well & truly fed up of reading about people that buy horses without properly trying them or having them vetted, paying a bargain price, and then being surprised when it all goes wrong.

 

[Wishfilly]

This would be the decent thing to do, and you might as well make use of your insurance - that's what it's there for, after all. Presumably, you could also get to the bottom of the extra microchip, and then let the passport agencies involved pursue whoever is behind that.

AFIAK, and things may have changed, they won't pursue it in any legal sense. It's just a way for OP to get more information about the possible background of the horse.

 

[Keira 8888]

Whatever else you decide to do, I suggest that you make sure that your vet got a note of the 2 microchip numbers and pursue that, which sounds very dodgy. That should at least give you some justice for Prince.

Jeez - those words of yours have meant everything to me. “Some justice for Prince”. You are bloody right, I’m so glad you said that. I am going to get some god damn justice for Prince and you saying that had put me from neutral into fifth gear!!! How dare people deal like this! How dare this happen to an animal?! I am going to fight this every inch of the way and I will NOT let this horse go back to the dealer. If he has to be a field ornament for the rest of his life so be it - at least some good will come of this x

 

[Wishfilly]

I agree with everyone that the best thing for this individual horse is not to send him back and to do veterinary investigations, and PTS if needed.

However, if everyone does that and dealers continue to make a profit in this way, then it means that other horses will continue to get put in the same situation. I do accept that sending the horse back is a hard thing to do, and I know in reality it would be hard for me to be that hard hearted with an animal.

 

[Keira 8888]

I feel for you, but I absolutely could not send this horse back and live with myself. I would rather stand next to him being shot. I’m guessing he looks the part and will just get moved on every time it goes wrong, which is inevitably what will happen unless somebody is prepared to spend time and money on investigations or has the balls to put him out of his misery

Did you have a 5 stage vetting with bloods taken before you purchased the horse? If not please learn the lesson that if a horse is everything you are looking for but for a cheap price, it is probably too good to be true, particularly in the current market.

I’m sorry if I sound harsh, but I’m well & truly fed up of reading about people that buy horses without properly trying them or having them vetted, paying a bargain price, and then being surprised when it all goes wrong.

Yep, you are absolutely right. I will not let this happen. My mistake. I will not let Prince move on x

 

[Wishfilly]

Jeez - those words of yours have meant everything to me. “Some justice for Prince”. You are bloody right, I’m so glad you said that. I am going to get some god damn justice for Prince and you saying that had put me from neutral into fifth gear!!! How dare people deal like this! How dare this happen to an animal?! I am going to fight this every inch of the way and I will NOT let this horse go back to the dealer. If he has to be a field ornament for the rest of his life so be it - at least some good will come of this x

I hate to say it but I really do think you are unlikely to get meaningful justice pursuing the potentially dodgy duplicate passport. It may well be that the previous owners have broken passporting legislation, but the legislation really doesn't have much in the way of teeth, and is especially difficult to enforce across countries.

I do think you should contact the people who have issued the passport as it may be a useful route to finding more information, but I don't think you'll get any justice unless things have changed A LOT in the past few years.

 

[Bellaboo18]

He is - I got quite hefty insurance for vet fees and third party xx

That's good.

So to throw another idea out there, would the seller give you a partial refund and you get to keep him? Between that and your insurance you could do a full workup and hopefully get some answers.
I think the biggest gift we can give animals is putting them out of pain.
If you go for this you'd probably be starting on a emotional rollercoaster, you'd learn a lot but you may or may not have a horse at the end of it.

The reason I mentioned ulcers was I think you said he was turning around and biting at his stomach(?)

Anyway to sum up my opinion,

Heart-keep him, get the workup done and get answers. End the merry-go-round so many horses have to go on.

Head- Send him back, get your refund at least you've learnt from all of this.

I know which I'd do but what's right for one individual isn't necessarily right for another.

And, I don't think I've said...I'm so sorry you're going through this. People can be pretty evil.

 

[doodle]

Just be aware the insurance might not pay out. They may well argue it is a pre existing condition. Even with a 5 stage vetting , which I don’t think he had. My old boss fell foul of that. Horse had 5 stage vetting which missed a fairly big injury. Dealer said prove it was pre existing/you were miss sold. The vet who did the subsequent op to try and fix horse showed his evidence that it was. Dealer said horse was fine with me. Vet who vetted said it was sound the day it was vetted. Insurance said vet said issue was pre existing so we won’t pay anything. She had a horse she paid £8k for pts after several thousand in vets fees and legal fees and got not a penny back.

 

[Wishfilly]

Yep, you are absolutely right. I will not let this happen. My mistake. I will not let Prince move on x

Please do think about this really carefully, and make sure you are clear about what you are committing to/taking on.

I think you have been through a lot in the last few days/weeks and this is not a decision to make in the space of an evening.

ETA: The fact that the dealer offered a refund as soon as you mentioned the additional microchip suggests to me they are deliberately trying to hide something. I am aware of known dangerous animals who have been sold on this way in the past.

The fact that the dentist thought his age might not be accurate is another red flag.

 

[ycbm]

He is - I got quite hefty insurance for vet fees and third party xx

You need to check your policy first to see if they will pay. You have experienced difficulties requiring a vet to investigate within a month of insuring him. They all have a period of a minimum of two weeks at the beginning when that's not covered.

Please don't bankrupt yourself paying for thousands of pounds of investigations. Things like this often exceed the insured amount and still end up with no answer. A friend of mine has just retired an 8 year old after blowing her insurance and still having an unrideable horse.
.

 

[Flame_]

Just be aware the insurance might not pay out. They may well argue it is a pre existing condition. Even with a 5 stage vetting , which I don’t think he had. My old boss fell foul of that. Horse had 5 stage vetting which missed a fairly big injury. Dealer said prove it was pre existing/you were miss sold. The vet who did the subsequent op to try and fix horse showed his evidence that it was. Dealer said horse was fine with me. Vet who vetted said it was sound the day it was vetted. Insurance said vet said issue was pre existing so we won’t pay anything. She had a horse she paid £8k for pts after several thousand in vets fees and legal fees and got not a penny back.

OP, have you considered motorcycles instead? I really hope you end up with the right horse.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I hate to say it but I really do think you are unlikely to get meaningful justice pursuing the potentially dodgy duplicate passport. It may well be that the previous owners have broken passporting legislation, but the legislation really doesn't have much in the way of teeth, and is especially difficult to enforce across countries.

I do think you should contact the people who have issued the passport as it may be a useful route to finding more information, but I don't think you'll get any justice unless things have changed A LOT in the past few years.

I wasn't meaning to try to get anything done about the duplicate passport itself, it could possibly be used as evidence of intent to defraud and that is the avenue that I would go down, after taking legal advice.

OP, if you keep Prince, please do be careful about your own safety.

 

[Wishfilly]

I wasn't meaning to try to get anything done about the duplicate passport itself, it could possibly be used as evidence of intent to defraud and that is the avenue that I would go down, after taking legal advice.

OP, if you keep Prince, please do be careful about your own safety.

Sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying.

I do think going down this sort of legal route given the seller is based in another country is likely to be very difficult, though- but it could definitely be worth a try.

 

[fusspot]

Yep, you are absolutely right. I will not let this happen. My mistake. I will not let Prince move on x

I totally understand how you are feeling and would probably feel the same way but unfortunately having been in the horse world for a very long time...trying to get to the bottom of things,hold people to account etc...very rarely happens.It is a very sad situation but there are huge groups of people within the horse world that sell dodgy horses,provide fake passports etc....and they all have a way of worming out of it...as with a lot of organisations and sports...a lot of it is run by dodgy people that have each other’s backs.

It is a very difficult situation as would not be certain that Insurance would pay out as so soon after taking out policy,when they read what has happened,they will question and look into it.

Honestly,I would take a couple of days to really think and work out the whole situation before deciding which way to go.

 

[ester]

Another who would not assume the insurance will pay for investigations at this point when it seems likely the horse has a pre-existing problem rather than a recent traumatic injury.

 

[DSB]

One last question?
If after testing,a problem was found that could be cured/fixed,would you be happy to continue riding him and allow your children to ride as well?
If the answer is NO,the kindest thing to do is to arrange for him to be euthanased.

 

[Keira 8888]

One last question?
If after testing,a problem was found that could be cured/fixed,would you be happy to continue riding him and allow your children to ride as well?
If the answer is NO,the kindest thing to do is to arrange for him to be euthanased.

That is a very good question. I just don’t know the answer

 

[Pinkvboots]

One last question?
If after testing,a problem was found that could be cured/fixed,would you be happy to continue riding him and allow your children to ride as well?
If the answer is NO,the kindest thing to do is to arrange for him to be euthanased.

What why does he need to ridden horses don't care if there ridden or not, if op wants to keep him as a field pet that's up to her he doesn't need to be pts just because she chooses not to ride him.

 

[Jules111]

Insurance companies often use any possible excuse to avoid paying a claim. I made a loss of use and hefty vets bill claim a few years ago and had to prove that the condition couldn't have been predicted as pre-existing at the point I bought the horse. It was only the 5 stage vetting certificate that proved that I couldn't have known there was a problem. Basically I had to argue that if a qualified vet found the horse to be fit and well enough to pass a vetting it must have been impossible to predict.

In my situation an incurable kissing spine diagnosis was found in a 4 yr old very well bred horse. I personally believe the breeder I bought from knew there was a problem but didn't investigate to avoid any records. The horse was PTS within 3 months of me owning it and that was the kindest outcome, the poor thing looked amazing in the flesh but the xray revealed incredible conformational problems that would have caused huge pain for the poor creature. I am far from being new to having and managing horses, but I think I was duped. It happens to many of us so please don't beat yourself up.

In your situation I'd try to get some "compensation" from the dealer in the form of a partial refund (full if you push hard enough) on the understanding that you will do right by the horse to ensure it doesn't suffer in the future.

It's an awful situation but you should give yourself credit for trying as hard as possible to give this horse the best home your can. His problems are not of your making.

 

[Firefly9410]

Funnily enough the dentist thought he was actually younger than 16! Very strange!

.

Not so strange . You told them you wanted older quiet been there done that. They told you he was older quiet been there done that. Friend of a friend horsey novice bought quiet ancient horse with worn down teeth viewed but untried and unvetted. Bucked her off repeatedly. Had vet. It was two. They were milk teeth.

Can people please stop referring to a Duplicate Passport. Duplicate is replacing original been lost. This horse has two microchip. Second passport. Not duplicate.

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

OP, have read through all of this. You've been sn absolute wally.....but we have all done daft things and hoped for the best. You are clearly trying to do right by this horse and I don't think you need to feel ashamed. People can be utter arseholes and sadly it is the poor animals involved that get the rough end of the stick.
I would hate to be in your shoes trying to decide what's best but there is no shame in returning him to the dealer. If you can afford to take the financial hit then PTS is an option but ultimately most of us simply can't afford to lose that sort of money.
I really wish you well in whatever you decide to do, but don't rush into refusing to send him back. You have to think of yourself and your daughter as well as the horse xx