New trainer in action.....

[teabiscuit]

Can't see your video, poor connection. I just wanted to say I do admire your ability to keep posting on here in the face of what seems like a barrage of criticism.
I'd have slung my hook long ago.
I salute you

 

[Armas]

Can't see your video, poor connection. I just wanted to say I do admire your ability to keep posting on here in the face of what seems like a barrage of criticism.
I'd have slung my hook long ago.
I salute you

I have started to develop a thick skin and learned not to over react !

Thank you for taking the time to post and especially to those posters who posted at length and with some really good advice.
We will be doing another session tomorrow and I will be raising some of the concerns that have been highlighted. I will be asking her to work slower and more collected rather than pushing him at the top end of his pace.
However it is a new fit and time will tell and as a wise woman once said ya got to break a few eggs

 

[tomspride]

Genuinely interested as to what you are aiming Armas at?
Before I got the impression that you had your horse to enjoy and hack ect. And that he was a very beautiful leisure horse

Now he is being put through all this training, is it towards a bigger competitive goal?

I was about to ask the same, why the different riders and training?

Do you ever actually ride/hack out on him and just enjoy him?

 

[kerilli]

We will be doing another session tomorrow and I will be raising some of the concerns that have been highlighted. I will be asking her to work slower and more collected rather than pushing him at the top end of his pace.
However it is a new fit and time will tell and as a wise woman once said ya got to break a few eggs

Please may I just say, I totally agree with GG's comments, and please, ask the rider to slow it down a LOT (I have seen Carl Hester warm a horse up (at a demo) in very slow trot, not tracking up AT ALL, and then when the horse was limbered up, OMG that horse was fantastic.)
Please, don't ask her to work him more 'collected'! Just slower! They don't mean the same thing... if you ask her to work him more collected I suspect she might use more leg and more hand (last thing he needs!)
If she'd slow the tempo, and allow him to stretch his frame when he offers it, that would be fantastic - she needs a more forward-thinking inside hand. The tempo needs to be almost lazy, so he can keep his balance and take a bigger slower step... of course he can be sent more forwards once that calm/balanced/steady tempo has been established and he can RELAX, I don't think it's possible for him to relax when he's being encouraged to run around!

I don't believe in the 'breaking eggs' analogy at all with training horses. Ideally you want them to learn from the start to be relaxed and happy in their work, never that it is a time of anxiety and pressure.

Very best of luck with him, she looks like a very able rider to me, just doing slightly the wrong things at the moment.

 

[Goldenstar]

I hope the next session goes well .
One thing I know for sure it takes this type of horse a long time to learn to stretch it's a hard exercise for them to learn hes built to collect .
I too salute the way you take the criticisms throw at you.
I would use poles on the ground to help in lines and single ones.

 

[_GG_]

Please may I just say, I totally agree with GG's comments, and please, ask the rider to slow it down a LOT (I have seen Carl Hester warm a horse up (at a demo) in very slow trot, not tracking up AT ALL, and then when the horse was limbered up, OMG that horse was fantastic.)
Please, don't ask her to work him more 'collected'! Just slower! They don't mean the same thing... if you ask her to work him more collected I suspect she might use more leg and more hand (last thing he needs!)
If she'd slow the tempo, and allow him to stretch his frame when he offers it, that would be fantastic - she needs a more forward-thinking inside hand. The tempo needs to be almost lazy, so he can keep his balance and take a bigger slower step... of course he can be sent more forwards once that calm/balanced/steady tempo has been established and he can RELAX, I don't think it's possible for him to relax when he's being encouraged to run around!

I don't believe in the 'breaking eggs' analogy at all with training horses. Ideally you want them to learn from the start to be relaxed and happy in their work, never that it is a time of anxiety and pressure.

Very best of luck with him, she looks like a very able rider to me, just doing slightly the wrong things at the moment.

Thanks....and +1 to the comment os collection.

Armas, one of the issues is that he gets so tense and evades any attempt at contact. If you ask for collection correctly through using your seat, core and if necessary, legs, this horse is likely to immediately tense through the back and neck...tensing against the aids as he is so hot and trying to rush forward. Then, the rider has to be firmer in the contact to contain the movement and hey presto you have evasion and tension again.
If the rider asks incorrectly for collection, by just using leg and hand aids, again, tension and evasion.

If however the rider just works on allowing him to relax, she will be better able to "hear" when he gives her opportunities to allow for proper stretching. In the video it appears that every attempt Armas makes at taking the contact down or out are heard by the rider as deeper evasion, so he is never given the opportunity.

I would work on the principal of relaxation first, contact second.

If he isn't at first relaxed and swinging without contact, you won't get him relaxed and swinging with it...hence tension, hence rushing, hence firmer contact, hence evasion.

 

[kerilli]

If however the rider just works on allowing him to relax, she will be better able to "hear" when he gives her opportunities to allow for proper stretching. In the video it appears that every attempt Armas makes at taking the contact down or out are heard by the rider as deeper evasion, so he is never given the opportunity.

I would work on the principal of relaxation first, contact second.

If he isn't at first relaxed and swinging without contact, you won't get him relaxed and swinging with it...hence tension, hence rushing, hence firmer contact, hence evasion.

This! Yes yes yes exactly! Please Armas, you have a super horse there, he really deserves the chance.

 

[Perfect_Pirouette]

I can't see the video as it's embedded and I'm at work.

Can anyone put a link up to it please and I will try and watch it on my lunch?

 

[Caol Ila]

What Kerilli and GG said.

Surely relaxation and rhythm are the basis of the training scale. I have always found that if a horse is tense, it will be evasive, and you spend your ride just battling evasions because the horse finds the whole riding thing stressful and isn't happy. I prioritise getting them relaxed and then finding their rhythm and being soft to the hand. Maybe not even an outline, depending on the education of the horse (that will come), just soft and accepting of contact. Then I start worrying about things like engagement. No egg breaking needed.

It's not helpful to obsess about the stuff higher up the training scale when the horse is all over the place with the basics.

The last trainer I used who had an egg breaking philosophy remains, to this day (14 years later) the only person who my very kind and patient horse has attempted to buck off. And still failed to convince my mare to use her hind end properly. It took a more tactful trainer to get that.

 

[AmyMay]

BUT... I think everyone needs to understand that this is not an easy horse - I'd go so far as to say that he is difficult to a degree that is beyond the comprehension of many people who have not experienced a truly hot horse. He is sharp. clever, and constantly challenging his rider.

He can't be that tricky. With all due respect to Armas - he rides him perfectly well (stating previously that his experience is limited...).

The horse as ever looks simply beautiful - but do have to agree with others who have pointed out the rushing, and being so overbent. I expected to see the rider start to push him up in to the contact and start slowing the whole thing down - and was dissappointed when this wasn't happening.

 

[AmyMay]

Poor horse, obviously his owner puts showy appearance before the comfort of his horse

That is completely unfair, and totally out of order.

 

[TrasaM]

What Kerilli and GG said.

Surely relaxation and rhythm are the basis of the training scale. I have always found that if a horse is tense, it will be evasive, and you spend your ride just battling evasions because the horse finds the whole riding thing stressful and isn't happy. I prioritise getting them relaxed and then finding their rhythm and being soft to the hand. Maybe not even an outline, depending on the education of the horse (that will come), just soft and accepting of contact. Then I start worrying about things like engagement. No egg breaking needed.

It's not helpful to obsess about the stuff higher up the training scale when the horse is all over the place with the basics.

The last trainer I used who had an egg breaking philosophy remains, to this day (14 years later) the only person who my very kind and patient horse has attempted to buck off. And still failed to convince my mare to use her hind end properly. It took a more tactful trainer to get that.

Agree.. Lovely horse and I don't like seeing him go like this. Why not find a Philippe Karl type trainer who will work with Armas instead to trying to force him to comply. I know you got criticisim about Brown boots but he was still allowing Armas to express himself and he wasn't all tucked up like this from what I recall. X

 

[_GG_]

One persons wrong is another persons right. It's very easy to sit here and judge this new trainer, but I would like to see her be given at least a chance.

I can't stand who she trains with as I have said before, but the issue with having trainers in to ride your horses can be that they have an expectation put upon them.

I am out of action still and have a loca dressage rider keeping Fly ticking over for me. The very first thing I said to her was that I would rather see Fly in no kind if frame at all but happy and relaxed, than working in a frame and tense.

It may be worth speakjng to this new trainer to say that you don't expect improve,ent overnight so you would rather see her work on relaxation and are happy for the process to be done at a pace that Armas is comfortable with.

It's just a symptom of the situation. If someone asks me to train their horse, I will warn them that I might not even ask for any contact work to start with. Some owners want to see results straight away. Fine I say...but if you want a trainer to tell your horse, you'll have to find someone else. I prefer to work so that the horse wants to do things with me not for me. Many trainers just need the work and the fear of losing that client because they don't give instant results is too great. This is why you get trainers using draw reins on horses that don't really need them, suggesting bungees etc. They give instant results, clients see a pretty picture (if you just like head down) and trainer gets more work.

Help your trainer be confident enough to slow things down Armas. Let her know you'll give her time so nothing needs to be rushed.

 

[milliepops]

Can't see your video, poor connection. I just wanted to say I do admire your ability to keep posting on here in the face of what seems like a barrage of criticism.
I'd have slung my hook long ago.
I salute you

^^ this, firstly I never usually reply to these threads because they turn into a bit of a bun fight but for some reason this time I am

With regards to how she is riding the horse, I can see what she is trying to achieve , my horse had a terrible problem with dropping behind the vertical and being incorrect in his neck. He was never on a tru contact. Many trainers kept telling me I needed to 'get his neck out ' so I spent many months riding him on a wishy washy contact trying to do just that.
Trouble was , he was never going to get his neck out or stretch down into a rounder longer frame as he was never actually on the end of the rein!
I then got a new trainer who told me not to worry about him coming short in the neck or over bent, just make sure he is always to the contact,this often resulted in a picture similar to what you are seeing there, wherever he out his neck and however short he came I just shortened back and put him straight back to the contact. Many people watching would have wondered what I was doing and whether I had become a fan of rollkur! Not at all , I just needed to connect him to the bit.

Once he realised that wherever and when ever he attempted to duck behind me my hands followed and I put him straight back to a connection he stopped doing it. Once he was securely in the rein, albeit, similar to the video, I could then start to push his neck out.
He is now able to be ridden deep and round, long and low or up and out in all three paces, he is always connected and secure in the rein and no longer hides behind the contact.

As some one said, sometimes you have to go through a period of bloody ugly to get a better result.

^ I had the same experience with mine. She's not a hot-head really but she always tended to having a short neck, BTV, running away from the leg yet still somehow behind it. He looks similarly awkward - whatever you do, it will be 'wrong' in some way for a while.

I thought she wasn't unnecessarily harsh, and he didn't look particularly *stressed*, more, working out what he was being asked, but trying to stick to old habits in the answers he gave
the rein aids looked more passive to me and I thought she was offering he hands forward when he looked like he was offering to stretch forward-down properly - albeit tentatively, BUT we don't know what he feels like to sit on. I would *imagine* if you offered a big loop of rein (hoping for a long stretch) instead of incremental bits he would invert and scoot off.

One persons wrong is another persons right. It's very easy to sit here and judge this new trainer, but I would like to see her be given at least a chance.
...
It may be worth speakjng to this new trainer to say that you don't expect improve,ent overnight so you would rather see her work on relaxation and are happy for the process to be done at a pace that Armas is comfortable with.

Finally ^ this, for me. I thought it looked promising for a v new partnership, esp as you said she is local so could be a regular fixture. Good luck

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

Aramas,

I'm not really up on all with your horse but I have a somewhat difficult mare that I decided this year I would change just about everything. She was jumped at 5 by a "trainer" and of course the draw reins found their way because pretty headset means working from behind. Not really. Anyway long and short of it is that I happened upon a website called Science Of Motion and their Facebook page. So for me things started to make sense. I really wasn't convinced by all this stretching nonsense to be honest.

Anyway long and short, I started my mare back lunging in a headcollar only. Oh the horror not telling them how to use themselves to make them stronger. What I wanted was "lift" in the back not stretch. My own theories here so no technical aspects. So instead of gadgets I used poles. Both raised and flat on my lunge circle. I did not have to use gadgets to get my horse comfortable carrying herself while also using herself. As in to a certain degree they must find a way they suits them within reason. Then I started back riding. I used to find myself letting her make the decisions because she was frazzled after the jumper thing. I thought I was being nice and trying to show her I wasn't going to get upset with her no matter what. Wrong answer. I needed to be definite and positive with her for her to gain confidence in me. So good another little milestone passed. Canter was spurt off and go in a tizzy and panicky. So I got off her back used a pole to ask for canter. Believe it or not I can balance one this way and no it does not mean on their forehand. She has learned self carriage in canter this way and it's relaxed and happy. As she gets stronger my position will change and we will work on adjustability. But now I have a mare willing working on the bit and offering me a lovely rounded lifting position. This has never happened before. Arena's drive her mad and so I keep things short and mix things up with walks. I do not need her competing fit at the moment and I'm more than happy for this foundation to come slowly because it's the first time it's been correct. More surprising is the way she has built muscle correctly by not falling into the trap of "this is the only correct way" that is all modern training.

I am in no means an expert but from watching the video your horse is struggling and it seems forceful to me. I am so glad after 2 years I finally stepped out of the box and said screw it, this will be different. Most of my time is spent starting youngsters and it was racehorses. So continuing on has not been my thing has not been my area. Canter should not be fast to slow down. Finding where they are comfortable and then working on adjustment from there. Even and rythmical not necessarily speed. Anyway, yammered enough and need to go reapply sunblock to noses.

Terri

 

[Flibble]

Well there is a lot of stuff on this thread so why am I posting? I stay away from controversy.

I have a Cob who has had KS surgery and we really struggle with his schooling use of his back and contact. I stumbled upon a Classical Trainer and Phillipe Karl and its been a real eye opener I wish I had found this approach years ago. I have only had his loveliness for just over a year it's going to be a long road getting his trust back and I am not the best rider by far.
However the debate on methods of training and how a horse should work correctly is invaluable to me so I would like to thank all of you for being open and sharing your opinions and Armas for giving us the opportunity to voice and share opinions about different methods of training.

I unfortunately am still trying to show my horse the way forward in relaxing using his back and accepting a soft contact.

So lets at least applaud the opportunity to discuss.

 

[ozpoz]

Thanks....and +1 to the comment os collection.

Armas, one of the issues is that he gets so tense and evades any attempt at contact. If you ask for collection correctly through using your seat, core and if necessary, legs, this horse is likely to immediately tense through the back and neck...tensing against the aids as he is so hot and trying to rush forward. Then, the rider has to be firmer in the contact to contain the movement and hey presto you have evasion and tension again.
If the rider asks incorrectly for collection, by just using leg and hand aids, again, tension and evasion.

If however the rider just works on allowing him to relax, she will be better able to "hear" when he gives her opportunities to allow for proper stretching. In the video it appears that every attempt Armas makes at taking the contact down or out are heard by the rider as deeper evasion, so he is never given the opportunity.

I would work on the principal of relaxation first, contact second.

If he isn't at first relaxed and swinging without contact, you won't get him relaxed and swinging with it...hence tension, hence rushing, hence firmer contact, hence evasion.

This ^^, oh this!.
I had to quote them, because it is so perfectly put!

 

[Spring Feather]

In the video it appears that every attempt Armas makes at taking the contact down or out are heard by the rider as deeper evasion, so he is never given the opportunity.

This ^^^ was exactly what leapt out at me. Armas tried numerous times and was blocked each and every time.

 

[_GG_]

I have mentioned stretching and being allowed to take the head down and out a few times in this thread and to be honest. Didn't think to explain my personal definition of stretching. Someone on this thread a page or two ago mentioned being unconvinced by the stretching trend. We may differ on our reasons, but so am I.

I will explain my reasons now in the interest of transparency...I am not one to hide

So...to many, stretching is about taking the horse long and low. Wanting the make the horse go in a long and low outline with a predetermined idea of what that looks like.

Many people achieve this by use of pessoas, long side reins, long draw reins or even just asking with the hands when riding, trying to push the horse forward into a long and low outline.

To me, all horses are completely different. An approach that works for one will not work for another. A frame that is natural for one will not be natural for another. To push a horse outside of what he finds natural and comfortable will cause tension of some sort, whether we want to admit it or not. Everyone agrees tension is not good.

So, do we try and find ways to make a horse go in that long and low outline we have pictured in our minds? No...I don't think we should.

Again, as I say with everything, I like to listen to the horse first and formulate a plan second. I will lunge with a simple lunge cavesson and lunge line, nothing else. No boots or bandages unless really needed, no other tack. If the horse wants to have mental moments, I let them go for it...I just talk calmly to them and make sure I move with them so as not to pull them into hurting themselves. I let the horse be what it wants to be...go how it wants to go, move how it wants to move and carry itself how it wants to carry itself. I do as little as possible, but just watch, listen and learn.

When a horse starts to relax into the lunging and just move freely around you, you start to see them come down into their own comfortable balance. For my ex racer, this is with her neck long outstretched in front of her, her ears about level with her withers sometimes going just below and her nose just bobbing up and down as her back swinging pushes the motion along her neck. When she is like this, she tracks over by about a foot in trot, more in walk. Her canter is where she lifts her frame up a bit and tucks her chin in a bit. Not because I ask, that is just what she is showing me is where she is comfortable in the canter as opposed to in the trot or walk.

My youngster Molly likes to go around almost all the time with her nose only about a foot off the ground except cant where she lifts up a a bit the same as fly.

Two horses, same trainer (me) two totally different natural ways of going.

So...when riding Fly I will just ride forward, not rushed, but off the leg and give her her head to do with what she wishes. She has a sweet point when doing this where all of a sudden her movement becomes huge underneath me, hard to even rise to the trot let alone sit and to see from the ground, her motion is huge, swinging free relaxed all along the back and my presence on her seems irrelevant to her action.

If I tried to make Molly carry herself the same way, she would tense against it. If however I ride Molly where she is comfortable, then she too will relax and swing freely.

Now, if you want to compete you can't do a dressage test with a horse looking like a beach donkey, no matter how good the movement or how engaged the hind end is. The judges want connection and that is where contact comes in.

In my opinion, if you try to create a contact and self carriage in a more rounded frame from the horses naturally comfortable carriage, you will have a relaxed and happy horse. Doing a few strides of "work" to start then allowing back to natural. Working it up to a few minutes, then just using the natural way of going as breaks during each session. This method seems to keep the horses relaxed. They tend to look for the contact when you start to take it up and they are consistent in it.

If however you are fixated on having your horses head at a certain angle and height in the "stretching" it may not be where that horse is comfortable. It might be where someone else tells you the horse needs to be, but not necessarily where the horse actually needs to be in order to be relaxed. So...if you ask for contact and connection from a horse that is not completely happy and relaxed where his currently is, he won't be relaxed trying to change his frame.

Hope that makes sense.

Is is of course all of my opinion and I am no expert...just being clear on what I mean. I think there is too much emphasis on long and low and stretching which can mean very often that it comes at the cost of what is actually comfortable and natural for each individual horse.

 

[AmyMay]

Great set of posts _GG_. Thanks

 

[bluewhippet]

I have mentioned stretching and being allowed to take the head down and out a few times in this thread and to be honest. Didn't think to explain my personal definition of stretching. Someone on this thread a page or two ago mentioned being unconvinced by the stretching trend. We may differ on our reasons, but so am I.

I will explain my reasons now in the interest of transparency...I am not one to hide

So...to many, stretching is about taking the horse long and low. Wanting the make the horse go in a long and low outline with a predetermined idea of what that looks like.

Many people achieve this by use of pessoas, long side reins, long draw reins or even just asking with the hands when riding, trying to push the horse forward into a long and low outline.

To me, all horses are completely different. An approach that works for one will not work for another. A frame that is natural for one will not be natural for another. To push a horse outside of what he finds natural and comfortable will cause tension of some sort, whether we want to admit it or not. Everyone agrees tension is not good.

So, do we try and find ways to make a horse go in that long and low outline we have pictured in our minds? No...I don't think we should.

Again, as I say with everything, I like to listen to the horse first and formulate a plan second. I will lunge with a simple lunge cavesson and lunge line, nothing else. No boots or bandages unless really needed, no other tack. If the horse wants to have mental moments, I let them go for it...I just talk calmly to them and make sure I move with them so as not to pull them into hurting themselves. I let the horse be what it wants to be...go how it wants to go, move how it wants to move and carry itself how it wants to carry itself. I do as little as possible, but just watch, listen and learn.

When a horse starts to relax into the lunging and just move freely around you, you start to see them come down into their own comfortable balance. For my ex racer, this is with her neck long outstretched in front of her, her ears about level with her withers sometimes going just below and her nose just bobbing up and down as her back swinging pushes the motion along her neck. When she is like this, she tracks over by about a foot in trot, more in walk. Her canter is where she lifts her frame up a bit and tucks her chin in a bit. Not because I ask, that is just what she is showing me is where she is comfortable in the canter as opposed to in the trot or walk.

My youngster Molly likes to go around almost all the time with her nose only about a foot off the ground except cant where she lifts up a a bit the same as fly.

Two horses, same trainer (me) two totally different natural ways of going.

So...when riding Fly I will just ride forward, not rushed, but off the leg and give her her head to do with what she wishes. She has a sweet point when doing this where all of a sudden her movement becomes huge underneath me, hard to even rise to the trot let alone sit and to see from the ground, her motion is huge, swinging free relaxed all along the back and my presence on her seems irrelevant to her action.

If I tried to make Molly carry herself the same way, she would tense against it. If however I ride Molly where she is comfortable, then she too will relax and swing freely.

Now, if you want to compete you can't do a dressage test with a horse looking like a beach donkey, no matter how good the movement or how engaged the hind end is. The judges want connection and that is where contact comes in.

In my opinion, if you try to create a contact and self carriage in a more rounded frame from the horses naturally comfortable carriage, you will have a relaxed and happy horse. Doing a few strides of "work" to start then allowing back to natural. Working it up to a few minutes, then just using the natural way of going as breaks during each session. This method seems to keep the horses relaxed. They tend to look for the contact when you start to take it up and they are consistent in it.

If however you are fixated on having your horses head at a certain angle and height in the "stretching" it may not be where that horse is comfortable. It might be where someone else tells you the horse needs to be, but not necessarily where the horse actually needs to be in order to be relaxed. So...if you ask for contact and connection from a horse that is not completely happy and relaxed where his currently is, he won't be relaxed trying to change his frame.

Hope that makes sense.

Is is of course all of my opinion and I am no expert...just being clear on what I mean. I think there is too much emphasis on long and low and stretching which can mean very often that it comes at the cost of what is actually comfortable and natural for each individual horse.

Not commenting on Armas as I am not particularly experienced and I don't know if anything more can be said, anyway!

Just wanted to see how useful the above advice is to me with my Arab. Thanks.

 

[Brightbay]

In my opinion, if you try to create a contact and self carriage in a more rounded frame from the horses naturally comfortable carriage, you will have a relaxed and happy horse. Doing a few strides of "work" to start then allowing back to natural. Working it up to a few minutes, then just using the natural way of going as breaks during each session. This method seems to keep the horses relaxed. They tend to look for the contact when you start to take it up and they are consistent in it.

Thank you for this, _GG_ I have always found that contact is something the horse seeks when working correctly, not something the rider imposes on them.

If the horse evades your contact, I would not be trying to insist, but asking myself what it was about my contact that they felt they had to work so hard to avoid And to me, rushing around with chin on chest is actually harder work.

 

[kerilli]

Yes, totally agree with that GG, x 10000.
Only want to add, imho sometimes encouraging a horse into a predetermined idea of the perfect ('long and low') position just puts it onto its forehand, from where there can be no useful progression, or onto the rider's hands... and some horses are happy with just a fairly brief stretch...

great thread Armas, and thank you for taking all this so well.

 

[_GG_]

Great set of posts _GG_. Thanks

you're welcome. I might not always get it right but better to share ideas than keep them to ourselves I guess.


Bluewhippet

Let us know how you get on. Have had to completely change some of my methods with arabs, lol. I actually think they are one of the breeds that predetermined ideas on anything usually end you up in faliure, lol. Not my favourite breed as I like big horses, but they are amazing in their own right.

 

[*Maddy&Occhi*]

Not commenting on Armas as I am not particularly experienced and I don't know if anything more can be said, anyway!

Just wanted to see how useful the above advice is to me with my Arab. Thanks.

This! ...has most definitley helped me with my spanish mare too, thanks _GG_!!

 

[Flibble]

If I didn't have the worst head cold in the world I would be off to try some of this relaxing out later but... Standing up is dizzying so perhaps his gorgeousness will have to wait.

 

[_GG_]

Thank you for this, _GG_ I have always found that contact is something the horse seeks when working correctly, not something the rider imposes on them.

If the horse evades your contact, I would not be trying to insist, but asking myself what it was about my contact that they felt they had to work so hard to avoid And to me, rushing around with chin on chest is actually harder work.

Could not agree more!

Yes, totally agree with that GG, x 10000.
Only want to add, imho sometimes encouraging a horse into a predetermined idea of the perfect ('long and low') position just puts it onto its forehand, from where there can be no useful progression, or onto the rider's hands... and some horses are happy with just a fairly brief stretch...

great thread Armas, and thank you for taking all this so well.

It is a fab thread and thanks to Armas I have been linked to some more videos and he certainly shouldn't be questioned on his motives...they are simple...he wants the best for his horse and I could never argue with that.

Again you remind me of something kerilli

I use the word encourage a lot...but forget how this can be misunderstood. Some think encouragement means half halting, playing, sponging etc. I use the term to mean just ride the horse quietly forward and be there for him, waiting for him to find the sweet spot and encouraging that by rewarding him when it comes.


For someone still too bruised to ride, this thread is great

 

[AmyMay]

I use the word encourage a lot...but forget how this can be misunderstood. Some think encouragement means half halting, playing, sponging etc. I use the term to mean just ride the horse quietly forward and be there for him, waiting for him to find the sweet spot and encouraging that by rewarding him when it comes.

Inspiring.

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

Yes, GG, thanks for your posts. Another that agrees with your posts about encouragement. Half halting and the like with Abba was never going to work. I'm so pleased I have such a different mare to work with.

Love your posts!

Terri

 

[Armas]

This has been an interesting thread and interesting points of view from start to end. A lot of food for thought and again I am thankful for the input.
As I said, I shall be sticking with this trainer as she needs a chance to get to grips with my boy and his ways. Once she has achieved this I am hopeful for positive stress free work.
This is another horse she has been training and yes it is a big elastic warmblood but is a good example of her skill level.

[youtube]un7g9qdR7Ng[/youtube]