No winter turnout how does everyone survive??

[L&M]

I agree sport horse. I am lucky enough to have a small paddock for winter t/o, but by now the grass has gone and all my horse wants is a couple of hours leg stretch and a roll, then back to his nice net of hay.

I was watching some horses out on sunday - it was a filthy, wet and cold afternoon and they went from standing around looking miserable, to fighting as were so fed up and no doubt impatient to come in. They ended up trashing their paddock in a matter of hours........

When we have had periods of no t/o due to wet fields, mine copes very well as long as he is exercised - if I know he has to stay in he is lunged and ridden, and we also have the luxury of an indoor school to let them have a run about in.

I appreciate however there are horses who could not tolerate no winter t/o but then it is the responsibility of the owner to find more suitable accommodation.

 

[charlie76]

I have my own yard with 32 horses living in. The race horses that are in pre training are now in 24/7 as the trainer wants them like that. They are exercised, go on the walker and are turned out in a barn loose for a couple of hours.
Their has always been a "rumour" in my area that I hardly ever turn out. I have no idea why.
In reality , all of my liveries and my horses are out almost every day in the winter for 2-3 hours a day. I have decided to keep them in the same paddocks all winter and close my eyes to the hoof prints and scuff marks!! I am lucky as we are on sandy ish soil and in a day of sun and wind they are all bone dry and I will be having them rolled at the weekend. You can walk in and catch in shoes rather than boots.
I have said to my liveries that if we have prolonged wet weather then I may have to keep them in for a couple of days just to preserve some of the grazing. This has happened a max of six days all winter.
On the in days they are on the walker at least once, exercised and turned loose in the indoor turn out for a roll.

I find that by preserving the grazing all year is actually better than just doing it in the winter.

I turn them out for 5-6 hours in the summer. By never over grazing and leaving them out too long there is always ample grazing all year round. I put hay out, they never eat it so there must be grass.

 

[meleeka]

For those whose horses won't stay out, do they have hay in the field?
I'm fortunate to keep mine on my own land but in all honesty, they'd stay wherever the hay was put. The only thing they wouldnt tolerate is in 23 hours but that's because they aren't used to it. I do think horses adapt, but it can't be good for them long term.
I think the idea of pens outside stables is a good one. Perhaps this is could be a solution for some yards. Just saying we can't have fields ruined without any thought to 'fix' the problem isn't fair to the horses.

 

[charlie76]

Its actually amazing how well they do adapt. Having had horses in 24/7 , out 24/7 and everything in between, I have found, in my experience, as long as they have a routine, do something similar each day and have some form of exercise each day then they are fine. When we had them in 24/7 none of them were any different to ride or handle. None looked fed up and none developed stable vices.

 

[Slavetoapril]

It is a weird one, i am on a DIY yard and we are fortunate enough to have all year turnout (the main reason i chose the yard). Our pony paddock is looking a bit trashed now though and my mare and her fieldmate are starting to have disagreements. The paddock is a bit tight on space as it was designed for restricted grazing - one lammi prone and one gas colic prone at 11.2hh and 12.2hh. Our very accomodating Y/O has come up with a few solutions to extend/seperate/rotate but unfortunatly non seem to suit my fieldmate **rolleyes**...BUT it is there if we need it and im thankful for that as stabling all winter is rough and i could never go back to it (been there done it). My pony hasn't been out for well over a week now due to lack of grass/fighting, except in hand, ridden and roll in the sand school but shes doing ok apart from been filfthy in the stable and extra cheeky to ride. Roll on spring! Mine will be out 24/7 and if they are still fighting with a bit on the paddock something will need to change but we will cross that bridge as/when.

 

[SusieT]

horses that adapt often 'shut down' rather than adapt.
They are herd animals designed to move.
Exercise doesn't replace herd interaction or freedom to move.
Horses with adequate food and shelter don't demand in - having them out in a very muddy paddock isn't optimla either if its sucking their feet off their legs.
Yards who wish to not 'ruin' their fields should invest in all weather turnout to allow a minimum of 4 hours turnout - or invest in barns or similar to enable group living with space to move. There is simply pretending that horsesdon't have needs and thinking outside the box.
A sand pit or all weather turn out be it gravel at a pinch will go a long way to alleviating boredom and meeting horses needs - those who don't even provide this are not good yard owners and can't use the 'clay' excuse!

 

[TheMule]

If I lived in an area where winter turnout wasn't possible I would keep mine in a small group in a barn. I can't get my head around 22 hours alone in a 12x12 box as being an acceptable way to keep such a large and active herd animal. You wouldn't do it to a dog, it would be abuse.
My little lot are very happy living out in all weathers with an area of hard standing to feed haylage on and a large double field shelter (used solely as a toilet it seems)

 

[polly123]

Thanks everyone, I will be looking for somewhere else in the spring/summer as I honestly couldn't go through a whole winter without turnout. I
have always had turnout all year round not just from May to October! I do not understand why livery yards seem to have 20 stables and only 10 acres max of turnout??

 

[twiggy2]

horses that adapt often 'shut down' rather than adapt.
They are herd animals designed to move.
Exercise doesn't replace herd interaction or freedom to move.
Horses with adequate food and shelter don't demand in - having them out in a very muddy paddock isn't optimla either if its sucking their feet off their legs.
Yards who wish to not 'ruin' their fields should invest in all weather turnout to allow a minimum of 4 hours turnout - or invest in barns or similar to enable group living with space to move. There is simply pretending that horsesdon't have needs and thinking outside the box.
A sand pit or all weather turn out be it gravel at a pinch will go a long way to alleviating boredom and meeting horses needs - those who don't even provide this are not good yard owners and can't use the 'clay' excuse!

I agree, I think keeping a horse in a stable for extended periods of time is no different to keeping a dog in a crate for the same amount if time except a horses digestion suffers more than a dogs

 

[jumping.jack_flash]

So, not easy to 'qoute' when typing on my phone.

But whoever it was that said, perhaps if we rode the horses . .then we may not of needed turn out in the winter , I assume may not have a full time job, mortgage, a house hold to run and dogs and other animals to take care of?

To be clear, 34 horses on a DIY yard, on lock down over that particular wet winter, was NOT Fun , even for a temporary period of 13 weeks. You honestly could not use the indoor school, as we were all in trying to stretch our animals legs . . Riding would of been even more dangerous! . . .

Also, horses are not over grown hamsters . .horse walkers have there place, but grazing and turn out is mentally stimulating . . .

Horses get depressed as well . .

So, NO, I would never move to a yard that has NO WINTER turn out! That's my personal opinion.

Horses are a hobby, and at times yes, It's like having a second job . . But it's not my full time job . .

 

[ClaretCarrot]

I'm sorry but I have to agree with some of the others, a yard should not offer livery if it does not have the space/facilities for year round turnout. Even if a horse is worked twice a day plus on a horsewalker, then the horse is locked in a stable the other 21 or more hours a day. Thats a long bloody time. Imagine being locked in a 3ft x3ft room for 21 hours a day. (lets face it horses are MUCH bigger than us) thats actually worse than prison as prison cells are bigger relative to human body size.

A sand/woodchip paddock or a hard stand with haynets so horses can have a few hours of freedom should be an absolute minimum.

I'm sorry you are in this situation OP, but I would look elsewhere asap

 

[chestnut cob]

Personally I wouldn't stay on a yard with absolutely zero winter turnout. I used to be at a yard where the horses were in 24/7 from Sept to April/ May. If you were lucky they'd get 20 mins in the indoor arena or lunge pen plus any work you did with them. I had an older, arthritic horse and somehow managed to get lucky that YO allowed him just to come in for a few hours daily and he mostly lived out with some ancient retired horses. When I bought a new, young horse, I was told "good, this one can stay in like the rest now". I went away on holiday for 3 weeks, horse on FL, came home to find he hadn't been turned out once so I moved immediately. He's such a lovely natured, sweet horse and in that 3 weeks he'd started biting and become quite nasty from the frustration of being in and YO not working him as I was paying her to.

I don't have an issue with *restricted* turnout in winter for a period, as long as they get out for a couple of hour's leg stretch plus worked. I kept him at a yard (after the one mentioned above) which had something like 14 acres for 4-5 horses so winter and summer grazing. Even in the depths of winter we had plenty of grass cover yet by lunch time, all of the horses (including my supposedly hardy native type) wanted to come in. During that period of the winter, mine was perfectly happy to go out at 7.30am and come in around midday then be ridden in the afternoon. He also doesn't mind odd days in here and there but he really doesn't cope well with being in 24/7 for a prolonged period so I've always tried to ensure I'm on a yard which allows him to have at least some turnout. Of course I do appreciate that sometimes the YO needs to save the ground when the weather is terrible, especially when you're on clay soil, hence a few days in isn't an issue but staying in for the whole winter isn't a situation I'd be happy with.

 

[ester]

I love the way everyone thinks their horses love being out in a filthy wet, muddy turnout field in the tipping rain and searing east wind.

I have two mares - one is 26 and the other is retired and in foal. They are the only horses in this yard that go out during the wet winter months. This last week the old mare has managed nearly an hour before coming back to the gate and whinnying to attract attention. If you ignore her she starts to rattle the gate until she is brought in. Today was sunny and she stayed put for 3 hours. The in foal mare, an ex sport horse, is not much different. They hate being left out too long and I listen to them.

I love the way people think that winter turnout mean filthy wet, muddy with no shelter.........

We are on the somerset levels clay, our paddock doesn't end up filthy wet and muddy and the horses are out every day 7 till dark.

I know plenty of other fields in various locations which are also not filthy wet and muddy with horses out at least during the day because they are correctly managed. I've turned horses (not mine) out in mud soup before -just down the road from current location- and wondered what the point is but discovered that if you manage the land and stock it appropriately it does just fine.

 

[Damnation]

I have been on two yards with no winter turnout.

Up here winter turnout is few and far between as it is soggy clay.

1st yard, horse was fine. They had an indoor, an outdoor and a huge lean to, along with few liveries it was perfect - no arguing over facilities. In the morning she was lunged. In the evening she went into the lean to with her two mates for an hour whilst we did our stable jobs then ridden for up to an hour. She was sane and to be honest, no real hardship and she was out of her stable a good 3hrs a day either being worked or having a roll/play with her mates. On the nights we didn't fancy riding we used to freeschool her and her friend in the huge indoor which they seemed to really enjoy, or I set up some jumps and let her have a play over them (on her own if jumping was involved!)

2nd yard, promised me turnout, and promised an arena was being built. It didn't happen and there were no facilities. Nowhere lit to walk her in the evening, no arena, no functioning horse walker, nothing. She wasn't sane enough to just hack out over the weekend which was the only option. It was a nightmare and I moved as soon as I found somewhere with winter turnout OR an arena to at least get her exercised.

Now at a fab little yard with winter turnout as YO knows the land is pants and isn't too precious about it BUT around here that is few and far between.

I think as long as the yard is set up for no winter turnout you are fine. By set up I mean there is an arena you can exercise in, or a horsewalker, or lit area's that you can take them for grass walks on early morning after work. BUT it is a two way street, you have to be able to give the horse the time it needs out of the box to stay sane.

ETA: Regarding horses being out in the mud, mine would rather be out hock deep in mud (it isn't that muddy at my yard but you see what I mean!) then in her stable, but like humans all horses are different.

 

[Asha]

Horses need turnout. Simple.

I hear the same old justifications time and time again, it just doesn't cut it with me. The basic principle of animal welfare is the 5 freedoms, and a crucial part of this is the freedom to express natural behaviour. Leaving a horse in a stable for a prolonged period of time without turnout, albeit providing ridden exercise doesn't fulfil that.

If you are on clay, put matts down, install land drainage, reduce the number of liveries, do what you need to do.

I'm on clay, we have invested a fair few spoondolies in land drains, it definitely helps, it doesn't remove the issue completely. But the fields are usable

 

[Damnation]

If you are on clay, put matts down, install land drainage, reduce the number of liveries, do what you need to do.

I'm with you - horses do need turnout or at least time to socialise, however as someone said earlier in this thread, sometimes you are backed into a corner and you don't have any choice.

BUT the common theme I am finding is that because people won't pay enough livery wise to cover the cost of basic maintenence let alone things like drainage and mats (which are expensive), YO'ers are also stuck between a rock and a hard place. Ontop of land not being cheap to buy, it is a two sided issue.

 

[milliepops]

So, not easy to 'qoute' when typing on my phone.

But whoever it was that said, perhaps if we rode the horses . .then we may not of needed turn out in the winter , I assume may not have a full time job, mortgage, a house hold to run and dogs and other animals to take care of?

To be clear, 34 horses on a DIY yard, on lock down over that particular wet winter, was NOT Fun , even for a temporary period of 13 weeks. You honestly could not use the indoor school, as we were all in trying to stretch our animals legs . . Riding would of been even more dangerous! . . .

Also, horses are not over grown hamsters . .horse walkers have there place, but grazing and turn out is mentally stimulating . . .

Horses get depressed as well . .

So, NO, I would never move to a yard that has NO WINTER turn out! That's my personal opinion.

Horses are a hobby, and at times yes, It's like having a second job . . But it's not my full time job . .

Making some big assumptions there. I think the key is to recognise that everyone is different and so are horses.

Personally I wouldn't be on a yard where everyone wanted to turn out in the indoor school, I'd prefer to be in control of my horses when giving them exercise because for me, having several horses in a small enclosed space when they are fresh is a recipe for disaster. So... see, we're all different.

I have a full time job, a house to run, other commitments and 2 horses on DIY and my world revolves around the horses and making sure their need are met. Different again.

There's no need for capitals and shouty posts, for some people the options are limited but that doesn't mean that their horses are miserable or suffering, though it might mean that their approach and their choices in how they run their lives are quite different to yours. Yes, in an ideal world every yard would have oodles of land and hardly any horses, but we aren't in an ideal world - you have to make the best of it. For some people that means busting a gut to make it work.

 

[Goldenstar]

Yes, a sacrificed paddock . .or restricted turnout, minimum half days . . . It's just not fair for the horses, or the owners . .. Regardless, It's stressful all round.

I didn't wan to be harsh . .but I WOULD do whatever I can to keep my animal mobile and happy.

As someone has also said . . Yards are squeezing as many horses in as possible, forgetting about the winter months . . and then wonder why people get upset when turn out is stopped.

It's just is not good business savy! . .happy horses = happy owners, which = profit and good productivity with excellent clients, who WILL pay more in the long term for an excellent service! . . .

People expect to pay less than £ 10 per day for DIY round here that's a use of a school includes forage and straw in some places and a nice stable free electricity someone else maintaining the stables and the fences TBH it's nuts .
On clay land you need a huge amount of acres per horse to maintain true year round turnout .
I have just under fifteen acres and five horses we only just manage to maintain the land in a responsible state at this stocking level I could never have horse out 24/7 here unless I went down to two perhaps three horse the place would look a mess and the soil structure would degrade .
We have a winter sacrifice pasture and by this time of year we giving them two to three hours turnout daily I keep my horses in work in winter they are busy and they are perfectly happy in this roultine .
I think it's simply unrealistic to say that all yards should provide a fields all year round people simply will not pay what that would cost .
All weather turnout pens and horse walkers can help in these situations but all this costs money.
OP of course was forced to the situation she is in her horses were sudden homeless and the answer is to work them twice a daY until she finds a better option .
Finding a fee lance groom to go in at lunch time and do something with them might be worth it until spring .
This problem is only going to get worse land pressure is bearing down on livery yards and they are often in prime sites for building as they are close to were people live .
People in ivory towers ought to reflect on how lucky they are and not have a go at those who are less fortunate .

 

[ester]

I think it is only because people have concern about the horses.
Having been around plenty of DIY yards with no winter turnout and owners that don't remove their horses from the stable during the working week those are the ones that I would be having a go at, not those who are prepared to make the extra effort for those horses.
It would be a big ethical decision for me to decide to own one if I lived in one of the areas where it really wasn't possible, I suspect it would depend on finances and whether I could be somewhere where all weather turnout options were provided. I was only really felt the 6 hours we got were ok if I was able to exercise the horse later in the day and was why he moved when that wasn't going to be as possible.

 

[Asha]

I'm with you - horses do need turnout or at least time to socialise, however as someone said earlier in this thread, sometimes you are backed into a corner and you don't have any choice.

BUT the common theme I am finding is that because people won't pay enough livery wise to cover the cost of basic maintenence let alone things like drainage and mats (which are expensive), YO'ers are also stuck between a rock and a hard place. Ontop of land not being cheap to buy, it is a two sided issue.

I totally agree. When mine where at livery I didn't understand the costs involved in providing a stable /grazing etc etc. Only since having my own yard do I appreciate that £25/week is a drop in the ocean, and not a viable option for a business to make a return while offering adequate facilities.

I cant see things changing.

 

[milliepops]

I think it is only because people have concern about the horses.
Having been around plenty of DIY yards with no winter turnout and owners that don't remove their horses from the stable during the working week those are the ones that I would be having a go at, not those who are prepared to make the extra effort for those horses.
It would be a big ethical decision for me to decide to own one if I lived in one of the areas where it really wasn't possible, I suspect it would depend on finances and whether I could be somewhere where all weather turnout options were provided. I was only really felt the 6 hours we got were ok if I was able to exercise the horse later in the day and was why he moved when that wasn't going to be as possible.

I guess it depends how you were 'brought up' horse-wise

When I moved to livery from just keeping my ponies on a farm, suddenly we had stables and a school - big culture shock - and there was no turnout from October to March. Was the only yard I could get to as a kid, so it was there or give up ponies. The whole yard - mostly hunters, but some hacks, and my pony - was in. It was drummed into me at a young age that it was my responsibility to shift my backside to make sure that my pony got out of the stable as much as possible. so it continues... where we are now, we have half day turnout unless it's really wet and then they stay in, and I still shift my backside to make sure they are worked, without fail. Pretty much everyone on the yard does the same.

So it depends on your personal experience doesn't it? We don't really have any horses left to fester in the week so I start from the position that it can be managed quite well even though it wouldn't be my first choice... Someone who has been on a yard where no one bothered would probably have a different feeling on it.

ETA also probably depends on the horse you have... I wouldn't keep an old retired horse like this, but it seems to work for those in a reasonable degree of work.

 

[Damnation]

I totally agree. When mine where at livery I didn't understand the costs involved in providing a stable /grazing etc etc. Only since having my own yard do I appreciate that £25/week is a drop in the ocean, and not a viable option for a business to make a return while offering adequate facilities.

I cant see things changing.

Totally agree.

The only solution a YO'er has really is to get more horses in to pay the bills, which in turn overgrazes the land which in turn leads to restricted/no winter turnout and it is a vicious circle.

I know I am so so so lucky to have found the wonderful, rough around the edges, muddy little yard. But then YO'er is lucky in that she rents it off an Estate who deal with all of the maintenence. Our livery literally covers her rent and bills, but even then she makes no money.

 

[Nativelover]

I've not read all the responses so I apologise if I'm repeating what others have said....

I've experienced yards with no turnout, when I moved here 15 years ago, I was absolutely against a no turnout rule. It seemed cruel to me (having been brought up on the belief that horses need to be out every day) and I was shocked when the YO closed the fields, esp when she had told me there's always winter turnout!

It was a struggle but I exercised my horse every day without fail, even after a night shift when all I wanted was to crawl into bed. He was also walked out and hand grazed every day. On my days off this was a 2 hour hand graze!!
I felt huge guilt and to be honest it made me ill, I was at the yard at 5-6.30 in the morning and again from 9pm till about 10.30-11pm. My OH was getting tired of not seeing me much and I was physically and mentally exhausted after 5 months of this.
So I moved yards to end up in a similar position but now with more travel, all due to YO not being truthful with how much turnout was allowed.
It seemed to me that these YO were happy to take the money but not put in any land management ( before anyone retaliates I know this isn't all yards ), I'd be happy to pay more but have more turnout in return.
How did my horse cope??? He wasn't the happy chilled out pony I had in the summer but we managed although he was very fresh to ride, he was always requiring attention when I was there, he was very nippy and feed time was very exciting.
I don't agree with no turnout, but I realise there are many who have no choice. I get angry with responses of "move yards" where to???? Or "you shouldn't have a horse if you can't turn him out" so I'm supposed to sell a horse I adore!!??? You really have to make the best of what you have and try to enrich the horse daily, whilst trying to find an alternative whether that is a different yard or even turning away for the winter.
I've tried the different yard scenario and 4 yards later have turned away for the winter (prompted by a baby) and will hopefully find something suitable before summer.
So OP it is possible to survive a no turnout winter, but it takes time and dedication. Not all horses cope well so you are lucky if you can get away with it, take comfort in knowing there are many in the same boat as you! Good luck in finding alternative yards,

 

[milliepops]

Totally agree.

The only solution a YO'er has really is to get more horses in to pay the bills, which in turn overgrazes the land which in turn leads to restricted/no winter turnout and it is a vicious circle.

Yup, so as GS says, there's no sense in berating horse owners who find themselves in this position because it's a combination of factors that have led to it, and realistically it's not what anyone would choose, given a viable alternative.

 

[ester]

Absolutely MP and I totally appreciate what you do to make it work.
I have mostly been exposed to ponies being chucked out in mud soup with no hay because it means they don't need mucking out later (RS)
and people on DIY who only go down once a day and don't exercise their horses for 5 days straight but the fields look nice

Neither I find acceptable or wholly necessary.

I'm never sure when the money thing comes up, do this YOers feel they have to be providing some sort of service to society keeping costs down? While I am sure not everyone would pay more per horse for more turnout/less stocking density etc I do think plenty would.

 

[ClareGilby]

We are lucky, we have winter turnout upto 3pm. We only have about 7 horses per large field, but even then it has started to get really muddy. The yard owner has said no turnout at weekends until further notice which isn't too bad as most people go out hacking at the weekends so they get out and about. I feel very lucky at my yard, they separate the mares and geldings and have small horses and larger ones in separate fields. It works really well as there doesn't appear to be any kicking and injuries through overcrowding. We are very blessed. It is £53 pw though, but I am happy with that for such a nice yard.

 

[Goldenstar]

I think it is only because people have concern about the horses.
Having been around plenty of DIY yards with no winter turnout and owners that don't remove their horses from the stable during the working week those are the ones that I would be having a go at, not those who are prepared to make the extra effort for those horses.
It would be a big ethical decision for me to decide to own one if I lived in one of the areas where it really wasn't possible, I suspect it would depend on finances and whether I could be somewhere where all weather turnout options were provided. I was only really felt the 6 hours we got were ok if I was able to exercise the horse later in the day and was why he moved when that wasn't going to be as possible.

It's right to be concerned about the horses .
But it's the owners fault if the horses don't get enough exercise not the yard owners .
It's the owners fault if they take a horse to a yard with limited facilities and then can't get it moving enough because it's winter and it's dark when they are not at work .
It's the owners fault if they expect the YOErs to provide expensive facilities for less than a tenner a day .
It's the owner choice to get a horse and it's their responsibility to give it a good life.
Many of the yards with very restricted turnout could half the number of liverys and increase the costs accordingly and ease the pressure on grazing I wonder what would happen then ?

 

[AdorableAlice]

With Government now giving the go ahead to build tens of thousands of new homes on green belt the prevalence of livery yards with little to no winter turnout will ever be increasing.

Personally I would pack up if my horses could not go out, but that is based on me working full time and being unable to exercise through the winter months not because I am against stabled horses. If you have the time and facilities it is possible to keep a stabled horse happy, fit and well. You have to occupy their mind and body to the full.

 

[Goldenstar]

Absolutely MP and I totally appreciate what you do to make it work.
I have mostly been exposed to ponies being chucked out in mud soup with no hay because it means they don't need mucking out later (RS)
and people on DIY who only go down once a day and don't exercise their horses for 5 days straight but the fields look nice

Neither I find acceptable or wholly necessary.

I'm never sure when the money thing comes up, do this YOers feel they have to be providing some sort of service to society keeping costs down? While I am sure not everyone would pay more per horse for more turnout/less stocking density etc I do think plenty would.

I would like to hope so .
DIY should IMO not be less than £70 a week more if there's an indoor and walkers and turnout pens to be paid for .
On yard I know has nice boxes and indoor ( no charge for using the lights ) forage included turnout ( does close or restrict at times it does flood ) its £45 per week it's just mad .

 

[jumping.jack_flash]

Lollipops . .if you had read my previous thread, you would of noted, horses were walked in hand! . .not all let out as a herd in the indoor school! . .

And on another thread . U will notice I paid for a groom to turn my lad out with one of his field mates in the indoor school at a lunch time, when the hired in groom, cleaned the stable, topped up hay and water.

And, I still will go on . . I would MOVE my horses IF a yard decided no winter turn out on a perm basis! . .

Yards need to consider, what they can and would offer in winter months! . .