No Winter Turnout - Welfare issue?

[Trickywooo]

What a lovely lot you are. I'm not trolling or trying to be controversial or whatever else you would like to accuse me of. I simply gave my views on a discussion just as everyone else did and was called out in an unnecessary manner for saying something, which I felt quite uncontroversial, which is that in my opinion, lack of turnout is a welfare issue and that winter turnout seems to becoming more common among livery yards.
No I can not control what others post nor am I trying to, but I can ask that something which I don't see the need to be discussed further, can be left alone now? But then if you would like to continue the witch hunt I suppose there is always the unfollow button.

 

[AmyMay]

We are act a lovely lot. Prone to robust debate.

Read through the thread agin. There’s no witch hunt, and many (myself included) agree with you that no turnout is, indeed, a welfare issue ?

 

[AdorableAlice]

We all do our best for our horses, at times our best is not ideal but all we have.

With many areas now under flood risk there will be many horses confined due to their grazing being under water. A lot of ground is clay and not suited to winter turnout. Some horses cannot be turned out in a normal way (I have one) and the methods of keeping them happy and healthy have to be adapted.

If owners want a perfect environment for their horses they need to buy their own land and have the skills and equipment to manage it. The livery yards will be doing as much as they can for their clients and thinking way beyond today as they plan to supply Spring, Summer and Autumn grazing.

Is it a welfare issue ? yes if you don't have the time and skill to keep your horse physically and mentally in good health. Is it a welfare issue to leave your horse in belly deep mud, yes and it will cost a fortune dealing with a rampant mud fever.

The way the climate is changing it is going to continue to be ever more difficult to keep horses in the vast majority of areas, as well as we would all like.

 

[Trickywooo]

Well each to their own but personally I don't think ganging up and singling out one person, accusing them of trolling, and being deliberately controversial is coming across as particularly "lovely".

I joined to engage in discussions and exchange advice and I believed it to be a friendly place, but now I'm certainly questioning why I bothered. Thank you to those who have well and truly made me feel thoroughly unwelcome.

 

[AmyMay]

Hey ho ??‍

 

[Clodagh]

@Trickywooo i think we’ve all moved on ?

 

[Eventing2022]

First of all I love the name trickywoo!!
I think the answer is...it depends. Is it worse for horses to be standing miserably at a gate in a field full of mud. Yes.
Is it worse to be forced to put out in mud if your horse has mud fever? Yes
Is it better for horses to be out with mates in a field of good grass. Yes.
Is that possible everywhere? No
Is it right for every horse? No

 

[ycbm]

What a lovely lot you are. I'm not trolling or trying to be controversial or whatever else you would like to accuse me of. I simply gave my views on a discussion just as everyone else did and was called out in an unnecessary manner for saying something, which I felt quite uncontroversial, which is that in my opinion, lack of turnout is a welfare issue and that winter turnout seems to becoming more common among livery yards.
No I can not control what others post nor am I trying to, but I can ask that something which I don't see the need to be discussed further, can be left alone now? But then if you would like to continue the witch hunt I suppose there is always the unfollow button.

Nobody has accused you of trolling! Unless you and the person who started the thread are the same person.
.

Well each to their own but personally I don't think ganging up and singling out one person, accusing them of trolling, and being deliberately controversial is coming across as particularly "lovely".

I joined to engage in discussions and exchange advice and I believed it to be a friendly place, but now I'm certainly questioning why I bothered. Thank you to those who have well and truly made me feel thoroughly unwelcome.

You have misread posts which were not about you. I think you may be too sensitive to enjoy HHO.
.

 

[Zoeypxo]

If the only yards near me didn't offer winter turnout i wouldn't bother having a horse
Mine is dangerous on restricted turnout and completely unrideable

a friend of mine had a grade A show jumper kept on a competition yard. She kept him in October-April 24/7 and he was absolutely fine. He went nuts if he was turned out for 2 days (good weather) kept in for 3 days (rain) and so on.

Every horse is different and you have to do whats right for them individually

 

[splashgirl45]

When I got my first horse in the 60’s I kept him at the riding school and I had a full time job in London and worked part time at the R/S for part of his keep. We had no fields and only a small clinker paddock that we could use to lunge or free school or let them wander around . We did have an area of grass quite close and I used to take my horse there in hand and let him graze whenever I could. I rode him every day for at least an hour during the week and he got 2 or 3 hours hacking each day at the weekend, I did the best I could at the time but wouldn’t want to keep a horse like that again. It was very much the norm with livery yards or riding schools who were in built up areas…and with clay soil in this area I fear it will be more common to not have winter turnout, but as long as the horse has enough to eat and drink and plenty of outside time I can’t get too worked up about it when there are thousands of horses chucked in fields up to their knees in muck and rubbish and who starve to death. Just look at WHW and all of the horses they have tried to save from this fate..and there are still loads out there that perish in horrible circumstances, let’s get that sorted out first

 

[spotty_pony]

Sadly it is becoming the norm. I am lucky that mine are at home and so can have as much turnout as they want. They are still out at night and in for a couple of hours during the day like they do in the summer at the moment but are in tonight as they weather is bad here. I read an article this morning about how horses get a lot more problems these days simply down to the fact that they aren’t moving enough and I can completely see what they mean.

 

[paddy555]

Well each to their own but personally I don't think ganging up and singling out one person, accusing them of trolling, and being deliberately controversial is coming across as particularly "lovely".

I joined to engage in discussions and exchange advice and I believed it to be a friendly place, but now I'm certainly questioning why I bothered. Thank you to those who have well and truly made me feel thoroughly unwelcome.

welcome to the group. The person who started this thread is being accused of trolling. The subject of the thread is controversial, take some time to look at earlier threads on this topic. You will see some right arguments. Mention "cages" that will also provoke comment.
There is a member (possibly more) who joins the group, starts controversial posts and then either leaves or gets removed. They then come back under a new name and we start again. It is thought to be the OP here. It is not you. You have just got caught up in the middle of it, don't realise it is not aimed at you and have taken it personally.

Some on here are prone to robust debate and the sparks do fly. Some of the threads are not for the sensitive. So saying they do make for amusing reading as long as they are not taken personally.

Why not start again, tell us a little about yourself in very general terms, most of us know approx how old everyone is, what sort of livery etc arrangements they have, what sort of horses, how long they have kept horses etc.

 

[paddy555]

. I read an article this morning about how horses get a lot more problems these days simply down to the fact that they aren’t moving enough and I can completely see what they mean.

I think we may have read the same article

 

[LEC]

Traditionally we would muck spread in feb in the frosts back in late 80s/early 90s as easy to get on the fields. Turnout would be easy as colder and just not the wet you get now. The climate has changed rapidly in just 15 years. We spent £7k on an all weather turnout which has proved a blessing. Most liveries I know round here have some kind of all weather turnout.

 

[spotty_pony]

I think we may have read the same article

It was on Facebook! ? It was well written and actually there was quite a lot of truth in it.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

It's done to its absolute death but I will say horses don't give a shit about mud whereas some yo and people do, so you have to make the choice for yourself really and go to where it suits your choices.

 

[Tacobell]

It was on Facebook! ? It was well written and actually there was quite a lot of truth in it.

Would you have a link to the article ?

 

[spotty_pony]

Would you have a link to the article ?

https://www.facebook.com/1000572680...3t4HoCTdeM1WYwrFpVbBoXzSnv3VgTZdSDbxfZR4ykQl/

 

[Kaylum]

We have loafing areas so every animal has turnout everyday. We have introduced this over the years. The areas are plenty big enough for them to run around in and play. They also have shelters and the donkeys have a big barn they go and out of in their loafing area.

 

[Anna Clara]

I think it's a welfare issue, but perhaps more from a socialisation point of view. Horses are herd animals and I think it's so important they have the facilities to interact with each other to give them true "down time." And I say this as someone who currently has a horse on individual grass livery which I feel awful about. He's next to others but I want him to have a friend so much, I have all my fingers crossed another grass livery decides they want theirs too as well.

 

[Barton Bounty]

We have had so much rain lately most of the fields are so flooded but I try to
Get BB out for a couple of hours every day in his turnout area as well as being ridden. I wouldn’t livery at a yard that has no turnout whatsoever.

Welcome @Trickywooo . Most people here are a nice bunch of people and very knowledgeable but not everyone agrees, sometimes you need skin like an old rhino ??

 

[Sossigpoker]

It is common around here not to have winter turn out. I don't agree with it but it is what it is. Some places are putting in turn out arenas though.

 

[stormox]

It really isn't becoming more common! Rather the reverse. How old are you? If you go back 50 years and more you will find that working horses were regularly stabled 24/7, and also worked much harder too. Go back far enough and you will find that loose boxes were new fangled inventions and before that many horses were in fact stabled in stalls where they couldn't even turn round. The in at night/out during during the day type model has really only developed over the last few decades, as people realised that more turn out was more optimal and as horses have become leisure horses rather than "working" horses working several hours a day. I'm not saying stable management in far gone times was preferable, but the trend is more turn out not less.

I agree. My 1st job - carriage horses - had about 12 horses in stalls where they could lay down, or stand up and move a few feet but that was it. They did all get a good hours ridden exercise a day of about 6-8 miles roadwork.
My next job was hunters, again in all the time from Sept till March, hacked out every day and kept clipped and rugged. Turned out all summer.
It certainly wasn't considered a welfare problem then.

 

[Dexter]

Absolutely, so it is lack of sufficient exercise which is a potential welfare issue, not lack of turnout for a few months a year per se.

Lack of turnout is a welfare issue. Exercise doesn't replace turnout. Saying it is what we used to do, doesn't make it ok. We used to bait bears and send people to the poor house and young kids up chimneys.

And as is always the case, people start equating winter turnout with miserable horses knee-deep in mud in tiny paddocks. That also is a welfare issue.

Having lived in Scotland, Wales and 4 different counties in England over the last nearly 50yrs, I have always found yards that offer turnout. They might not have the things I would like, like storage or schools or be close to home, but there is always an option.

 

[saddlesore]

To me, yes. It is absolutely a welfare issue. My boy is out 24/7 (perhaps the odd night in if he asks for one lol) but the minimum I could content my conscience with would be group turnout for daylight hours.

 

[Gallop_Away]

Whether or not lack of turnout has become more common aside (personally I think winter turnout is something that more and more livery yards seem to be restricting or at least that's how it appears) keeping horses confined to stables for the majority of the day, for months at a time, is certainly something that should be confined to the history books. It is certainly a welfare issue and I would never keep my horses anywhere that did not offer some form of turnout 365 days a year. If I couldn't find a yard that offered turnout year round, quite simply I wouldn't have my horses, because I honestly feel that locking a naturally sociable animal that is designed to move for miles at a time, in a 12 x 12 box for 23hrs a day, is nothing short of cruel.

Turnout, time to relax and move freely without a rider, lunge line etc, and interaction with other horses is a basic necessity for the majority of horses in my opinion (yes there are exceptions to that but I am talking in general terms). No amount of "exercise" is a substitute for it. A horse can not move freely or interact with other horses, groom, roll etc on a walker or with a rider in the same way that they can when turned out with other horses. It is just not the same I'm afraid and those who think it's fine that their horses are stabled for most of the day because they are ridden daily are kidding themselves in my opinion. Exercise and turnout are most certainly not the same thing!

I've also heard people say that their horse seems happy enough stabled through winter, and whilst I'm sure there are some that do prefer their stables to being turned out, horses are generally very amenable animals that can be conditioned to accept many situations. That does not mean that they are content. "Acceptance" of a situation and "contentment" with it are two very different things.

No turnout is still all too common amongst competition horses and racing yards, and I certainly don't think it's a coincidence that stable vices such as weaving, box walking, and ulcers are also common traights amongst them (not suggesting lack of turnout is the only cause but it certainly is a factor). I applaud the likes of Carl Hester and Christian Williams who put the welfare of their horses above their own ambitions and allow their horses turnout throughout the year. I hope more yards in the industry follow suit.

I will also say, that I recognise we are lucky to have a yard with enough space to accommodate daily turnout throughout the year, and not all yards have the space or soil conditions to offer this. But turnout does not need to be in a field and there are other ways it can be accommodated. I would also as a livery, happily be prepared to pay more to ensure my horses had access to some form of daily turnout throughout the year.

So yes I think for many reasons, lack of turnout is a welfare issue. That's not to say I believe all horses should be out 365 days up to their knees in mud. My own horses are stabled at night during winter, but are turned out in *the horror* mixed turnout from 8am to 5pm unless the weather is horrendous in which case they have the odd duvet day. The fields are rotated and, apart from the gateway, are not bogged down with mud and still have sufficient grazing even during winter.

They go out, have a good roll, and settle to graze. I also frequently catch them grooming other members of their "herd" and my boys frequently "play" together and mess around (my mare would never lower herself to such things). They look like happy, muddy, content horses to me.

 

[ycbm]

I wouldn't have my horses, because I honestly feel that locking a naturally sociable animal that is designed to move for miles at a time, in a 12 x 12 box for 23hrs a day, is nothing short of cruel.

Leaving aside the number of hours a day in the stable for the moment, how do you feel about hacking for miles at one time, training in an arena, jumping clinics etc, or even just being sat on by a rider, none of which they were designed to do?

I sometimes feel people (not necessarily you) are very selective about what non-natural things they are happy to have happen to a horse which appears happy and healthy and which they aren't.
.

 

[Gallop_Away]

Leaving aside the number of hours a day in the stable for the moment, how do you feel about hacking for miles at one time, training in an arena, jumping clinics etc, or even just being sat on by a rider, none of which they were designed to do?

I sometimes feel people (not necessarily you) are very selective about what non-natural things they are happy to have happen to a horse which appears happy and healthy and which they aren't.
.

Don't get me wrong, as we have domesticated horses it is impossible to keep them in a way that is purely "natural" and I understand that. But I feel we should do our absolute best to manage them in ways that reflect what is "natural" for them where it is possible and practical.

Turnout is something we can control and manage and I think it's completely fair to say most horses are naturally sociable and enjoy being able to freely move and interact with others. They can not do this when they are confined to a stable. Turnout is something so simple, but so important for their wellbeing in my opinion.

 

[JBM]

Unfortunately my only two options for management is 24/7 turnout at home or a livery with no winter turnout (none of the yards here have winter turnout closest one is an hour away and full and they get a max of 4 hours)
My mare is 24/7 turnout and my gelding unfortunately had to be moved to the livery he was out 24/7 in the summer but as soon as the field even got slightly wet he was covered in mudrash and rain scald (had a blanket on but got it all over his face badly) so I had to move him to a stable unfortunately
I try to let him out into the arena daily but if it’s raining at all (which is usually is in ireland) he will do a quick roll two laps of canter and then stand at the gate yelling at me while I’m still cleaning his stable ??‍

 

[AmyMay]

I try to let him out into the arena daily but if it’s raining at all (which is usually is in ireland) he will do a quick roll two laps of canter and then stand at the gate yelling at me while I’m still cleaning his stable ??‍

But presumably you exercise him properly for a couple of hours every day.