No Winter Turnout - Welfare issue?

[JBM]

But presumably you exercise him properly for a couple of hours every day.

Currently his arena turnout is his exercise with some loose lunging as he has a back problem we are still trying to diagnose
we go on in hand walks and for grazing walks too

 

[throwawayaccount]

Every horse is different- some genuinely prefer their stables, some only like being out a few hours a day. Some are such an asset it’s not worth the financial risk of potential injury.
Ultimately in my eyes- Yes, it’s a welfare issue.

there are many factors to lack of turn out. Some are the wet weather, lack of adequate land and too many horses turned out & ruining field. people not knowing how to manage field, etc.

Imo horses mental health isn’t considered as much as it should be.

 

[Dexter]

Leaving aside the number of hours a day in the stable for the moment, how do you feel about hacking for miles at one time, training in an arena, jumping clinics etc, or even just being sat on by a rider, none of which they were designed to do?

I sometimes feel people (not necessarily you) are very selective about what non-natural things they are happy to have happen to a horse which appears happy and healthy and which they aren't.
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Hacking for miles is probably fairly close to natural for a grazing animal. But for me its not about being natural, its about providing a lifestyle which meets the horses needs to move and have companionship.

Having been to yards that don't allow turnout people arent exercising for a couple of hours morning and night. The horses are lucky if they get 10mins run around the arena, then back in the box they go.

 

[Dexter]

Currently his arena turnout is his exercise with some loose lunging as he has a back problem we are still trying to diagnose
we go on in hand walks and for grazing walks too

can he not go out with Judy? that's not going to be helping with soundness issues.

 

[JBM]

can he not go out with Judy? that's not going to be helping with soundness issues.

No as my only options are 24/7 which in my previous post I said doesn’t suit him as he gets rain scald and mud rash even in small amounts of mud so this time of year he would be limping in about a week

 

[JBM]

can he not go out with Judy? that's not going to be helping with soundness issues.

He’s completely sound without the saddle on and sound with a racing saddle on so it’s a working progress

 

[Goldenstar]

Horses stabled 24/7 need a lot of work and time spent with them .
The tiny paddocks that you see on many many yards are just a change of scenery they provide no meaningful exercise and the horses will still need a lot of exercise
If you are on DIY and can’t provide that you need move change something .
For people working full time in charge of their horse full time it’s extremely diffcult to do well .
Its a huge commitment .
The sad fact is there are more horses than the land available to graze them livery does not make enough profit for that .
I don’t know what the answer is I suspect that horse ownership will go down and it will move back to being the preserve of those with a lot of disposable income and of those who live in very rural areas where there’s less pressure on land use .

 

[Ouch05]

I think we may have read the same article

Delete as found further up the thread

 

[ponynutz]

Plenty of people including myself have no winter turnout. That being said all of those people, including myself, chuck the horses out in the sand paddock all day or at least while theyre at the yard in addition to exercise.

 

[AmyMay]

Plenty of people including myself have no winter turnout. That being said all of those people, including myself, chuck the horses out in the sand paddock all day or at least while theyre at the yard in addition to exercise.

I think that’s the key. You make alternative arrangements. So a turnout paddock. Or at least some decent exercise. Be that walking in hand for a couple of hours or ridden work.

 

[Burnttoast]

Leaving aside the number of hours a day in the stable for the moment, how do you feel about hacking for miles at one time, training in an arena, jumping clinics etc, or even just being sat on by a rider, none of which they were designed to do?

I sometimes feel people (not necessarily you) are very selective about what non-natural things they are happy to have happen to a horse which appears happy and healthy and which they aren't.
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I see it as offering horses the chance to be horses and live an approximation of a natural life in their downtime even if it involves some difficulty for us is the quid pro quo that we ought to be extending to them in return for all the unnatural things we want to do with them.

 

[splashgirl45]

In an ideal world horses would have 24/7 turnout on grazing that is not too rich and that covers a large amount of land , in this small country it’s nowhere near possible for many people so compromises have to be made and most people on here sound like they are doing the best they can and to say if you couldn’t keep a horse in ideal circumstances you wouldn’t keep a horse seems an odd thing to say. There are many horses who would be much better off if they were stabled rather than being ignored in a muddy field.

 

[Goldenstar]

Yes it’s true that there’s some very dodgy management of out 24/7 horses .
Including keeping horses out 24/7 in fields where the amount of grass is bound to cause obesity and the attendant health problems .
That needs calling out as much as issues around stabling .

 

[Sossigpoker]

Horses stabled 24/7 need a lot of work and time spent with them .
The tiny paddocks that you see on many many yards are just a change of scenery they provide no meaningful exercise and the horses will still need a lot of exercise
If you are on DIY and can’t provide that you need move change something .
For people working full time in charge of their horse full time it’s extremely diffcult to do well .
Its a huge commitment .
The sad fact is there are more horses than the land available to graze them livery does not make enough profit for that .
I don’t know what the answer is I suspect that horse ownership will go down and it will move back to being the preserve of those with a lot of disposable income and of those who live in very rural areas where there’s less pressure on land use .

I don't think there's any signs of horse ownership going down. If anything, the culture of entitlement seems to be growing.
People are too fat , tack doesn't fit , horse is lame. But we're all supposed to "be kind" and let them get on with it.
So lack of turn out will do nothing to deter these idiots , and their numbers are growing.
Their right to own and ride horses will always stump the horse's right to welfare.

 

[Orangehorse]

Unfortunately on clay soil in an overdeveloped part of the country (southeast Sussex/surrey border) we simply don’t have a choice of yards that offer excellent turnout. I won’t get another horse after this one as it doesn’t sit well with me but current horse copes ok with our turnout, albeit relatively limited when the fields are just standing water. Our YO is brilliant and turns out as soon as we can see the fields rather than water but it’s difficult when we’re getting this constant heavy rain. 20 odd years ago when I’m sure the weather wasn’t this extreme i was at a yard that kept them all in from September/October to April/May and now I wouldn’t consider such a situation but then again, limited options. That yard has now closed anyway.

Yes, I think you are right, although don't forget that it was usual to have snow and ice during the winter.

My OH says that our land is unsuitable for horses - heavy clay - and he is right. My field gets trashed in winter but then I've only got a horse and a pony. If there were 20 horses it would be nothing but mud.

 

[Hallo2012]

Yes it’s true that there’s some very dodgy management of out 24/7 horses .
Including keeping horses out 24/7 in fields where the amount of grass is bound to cause obesity and the attendant health problems .
That needs calling out as much as issues around stabling .

the horses living out group on FB is DREADFUL for this- overstocked clay fields reduced to an absolute bottomless slop so horses either knee deep in it or all crammed on a tiny island of mud mats.......and the owners championing this as natural and better than a stable............

 

[Orangehorse]

What happens in countries that always have lots of snow? I realise that the UK is different in that our winters are wet, either rain or snow, and that countries with a lot of snow often have a dry climate, like Montana in the USA for example.

So what about Germany with the Continental climate, or Norway, Canada, Russia? How do horses there live in the winter.

Stabling was originally so the working horse was available to work, so they would be out most of the day working on the farm or pulling something, so its an issue for leisure horses, not working horses.

 

[Leandy]

Lack of turnout is a welfare issue. Exercise doesn't replace turnout. Saying it is what we used to do, doesn't make it ok. We used to bait bears and send people to the poor house and young kids up chimneys.

And as is always the case, people start equating winter turnout with miserable horses knee-deep in mud in tiny paddocks. That also is a welfare issue.

Having lived in Scotland, Wales and 4 different counties in England over the last nearly 50yrs, I have always found yards that offer turnout. They might not have the things I would like, like storage or schools or be close to home, but there is always an option.

Ah but I disagree. I'd agree if a horse had no turn out ever at all but that isn't what we are saying here. I'm perfectly happy for a horse to be fully stabled for periods, so long as it is properly exercised - which many are not these days - if the weather/field conditions warrant it. I'd prefer it to have some turnout yes, but I don't think a temporary lack of turnout is of itself a welfare issue. If it were my horse the management would be balanced by more turn out in the better months, and perhaps a couple or more weeks holiday let down with full turn out "to be a horse".

 

[Dexter]

Ah but I disagree. I'd agree if a horse had no turn out ever at all but that isn't what we are saying here. I'm perfectly happy for a horse to be fully stabled for periods, so long as it is properly exercised - which many are not these days - if the weather/field conditions warrant it. I'd prefer it to have some turnout yes, but I don't think a temporary lack of turnout is of itself a welfare issue. If it were my horse the management would be balanced by more turn out in the better months, and perhaps a couple or more weeks holiday let down with full turn out "to be a horse".

How is being stabled 24/7 all winter not a welfare issue? An animal designed to be almost constantly in motion is restricted to a 12x12 stable. Some of them allowed to run around for 15mins if they are lucky, lots just moved from their stable to a tie ring and back again. Quite often left without forage for hours on end. A couple of weeks out 24/7 doesn't balance out a winter stood in.

I am yet to meet or know of any of these mythical owners that exercise their horses twice a day for a couple of hours. I don't think they exist.

 

[splashgirl45]

How is being stabled 24/7 all winter not a welfare issue? An animal designed to be almost constantly in motion is restricted to a 12x12 stable. Some of them allowed to run around for 15mins if they are lucky, lots just moved from their stable to a tie ring and back again. Quite often left without forage for hours on end. A couple of weeks out 24/7 doesn't balance out a winter stood in.

I am yet to meet or know of any of these mythical owners that exercise their horses twice a day for a couple of hours. I don't think they exist.

You are illustrating the worst of no winter turnout, many people do spend lots of time with their horses , exercising, grazing in hand, loose in the school with field buddies and time interacting with them in the stable, the comment about no forage can apply if horse is out on a muddy field with no grass and most people feed hay as much as they can while in the stable. We don’t all have unlimited acres of horse friendly grazing because in this country there isn’t much around and most of it is owned by very well off people, not the likes of most of us on here

 

[Leandy]

How is being stabled 24/7 all winter not a welfare issue? An animal designed to be almost constantly in motion is restricted to a 12x12 stable. Some of them allowed to run around for 15mins if they are lucky, lots just moved from their stable to a tie ring and back again. Quite often left without forage for hours on end. A couple of weeks out 24/7 doesn't balance out a winter stood in.

I am yet to meet or know of any of these mythical owners that exercise their horses twice a day for a couple of hours. I don't think they exist.

Try reading what I wrote (and didn't write) again. And a stabled horse does not need 4 hours work a day but it does need a lot more than a quick 30 minute amble around the block! Many horses fair very well kept stabled as I explained. Perhaps you are not understanding what good stable management looks like.

 

[Burnttoast]

Many horses do manage to put up with being stabled but as said elsewhere they are, perhaps unfortunately, adaptable animals. I don't think it's extreme to say that shutting them on their own in a space little larger than they are for extended periods, given what we know about their evolution and social and physiological requirements, isn't in *their* best interests.

 

[Sossigpoker]

Many horses do manage to put up with being stabled but as said elsewhere they are, perhaps unfortunately, adaptable animals. I don't think it's extreme to say that shutting them on their own in a space little larger than they are for extended periods, given what we know about their evolution and social and physiological requirements, isn't in *their* best interests.

Agreed. And just because they're coping doesn't mean it's OK.

 

[Leandy]

Well we will all agree to disagree then.

 

[Burnttoast]

Well we will all agree to disagree then.

I'm not disagreeing that it can be done and many horses cope (when I worked with hunters and polo ponies they were all in and I saw with my own eyes that they all coped, being accustomed to it). But I'm just saying it's not actually what is best for horses in the round, if we consider their biology, and I wouldn't want that for my own horse.

 

[Gallop_Away]

Again I think people confuse "acceptance" with "contentment". They are not the same thing. A horse might "accept" a rider that's far too heavy without complaint, but just because the horse doesn't buck the rider off, doesn't mean what's being done to the horse is OK or in it's interest.

 

[mariew]

Where I grew up we had 6 months of winter with horses mostly in or in single turnout pens. They were worked much more and content and healthy. I don't think we generally exercise horses as much as we used to. I think horses are very adaptable and no turnout doesn't always mean miserable. Basically autumn to spring was working hard and competition season and then they'd get a few weeks off in the summer to do nothing or possibly just go out for hacks.

 

[Michen]

My horse is in a turnout pen that's probably about the size of a roundpen. Certainly enough for him to have a buck and a play. He's in a dry lot as we are in Colorado so there's no grass, therefore there's no natural grazing movement.

He is however out all day 8-3 unless it's very deep snow. He is naturally a very hot horse and if anything his behaviour is calmer than it was! I am careful to ensure that despite the "turnout" he very rarely if ever goes a day without some form of exercise, even if that's just hand walking.

I don't love it, but my horse is one year post hock injections (the longest he's gone since diagnosis), totally sound, looking and feeling the best he ever has so I'm trying to look at the horse in front of me rather than what I want to see him in. Frankly, he hated winter turnout in the UK, so I think he's rather enjoying the sun on his back!

 

[MagicMelon]

I find it very sad that some horses dont get at the very least a few hours of turnout every 24 hours. I personally could not do that to any of my horses (unless for vet short term reasons). I do think its a big welfare concern but as usual in the horse world loads of people will go nuts and tell me their horses are "happy" because they are clean and rugged up the eyeballs whereas my horses who live out might be standing in a bit of mud in horizontal rain. Sorry but IMO horses have to have their basic needs met. That to me, is not ridden or planned exercise but time to be horses, to have the freedom to move, to graze and to interact with other horses freely. I absolutely class it as a cage, a cage restricts an animals movement - thats exactly what a stable does, horses are big animals yet I wouldnt put my horse into some of the tiny stables lots of people think is adequate.

 

[ycbm]

I'm not disagreeing that it can be done and many horses cope (when I worked with hunters and polo ponies they were all in and I saw with my own eyes that they all coped, being accustomed to it). But I'm just saying it's not actually what is best for horses in the round, if we consider their biology, and I wouldn't want that for my own horse.

We don't actually know what's best for horses in the round because nobody has done lifetime studies of horses kept in different ways, and until they do this argument will rage time and again on horse forums.
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