No Winter Turnout - Welfare issue?

[Fieldlife]

That's because you are only thinking of the animals' welfare at that point in time. If it was found that horses which are stabled 6 months of the year in winter have a longer average life (for example because they get less mud fever complications like cellulitis, fewer broken legs from crowding gateways to come in out of the rain, fewer soft tissue injuries from sliding on surface mud etc) then how does that change the welfare balance?

I won't apologise for wanting data before I demonise other people's choices.

Data is all well and good, but what about what individual horses' want? My current horse went 12 weeks not being turned out before I bought him. He was happy to go out over night in winter when I bought him. He had to do six weeks box rest post surgery. (30 minutes hand grazing am and pm first 2 weeks, then this plus escalating walking both ends of the day, up to 40 minutes twice a day.

After that he would start shouting to be turned out by 2/3pm for the night. He also after being ridden would look pointedly in the direction of his field.

I've moved him to live out, and he is very happy. I see other horses that despite grass and friends prefer a few hours of turnout in good weather.

I have never owned a horse who didnt prefer turnout to stabled. So long as enough forage and friends. I have seen these preferring to be stabled horses owned by others. Mine even if rarely turned out when I buy them, quickly decide it is year round right that they insist on.

 

[Gallop_Away]

I've never seen it argued that horses should be shot rather than kept in for the winter.

And that is not what I'm saying either and I think you know that perfectly well ycbm. Please read the post again ...

So even if such a study existed, it would not convince me that keeping a horse confined to a stable for months at a time, is preferable or in the horse's best interest. A horse's mental wellbeing is just as important as its physical wellbeing.

 

[Hallo2012]

I tend to assume the bad photos are the high traffic areas of the field and the rest is better so horses have an unpictured dry area to stand. But dont envy anyone trying to


I tend to assume the mud in photos is the high traffic areas, and there is some dry in the back of the field out of photos. But maybe I am an optimist. I dont envy anyone keeping horses out on wet low lying clay!

That said maybe a decent sized field shelter, and a island of mud mats, and adlib hay in a feeder, the option of wading through deep clay mud if chose and company of friends is still better for many horses than being in a stable alone?

but many of them dont have shelter, proper hard standing etc its just slop slop and more slop. even the mud mats end up covered in excrement and mud as too many horses on too small an island

 

[mini-eventer]

we are on clay and have turnout pens, they have horses either side, and adlib in a feeder, its not what I would chose but it is a compromise. They get out every day unless it is awful weather they are not stood in mud. I exercise (ride) 5 x per week and he goes in on the walker on his 2 days off. I wouldnt keep horses like this unless I can commit to exercising properly.

The pens are through the worst 3 months of winter, and in summer we can turnout unrestricted.

 

[Dexter]

No, we've been through this before, there isn't any lifetime research, and what short term studies there have been generally fail to meet scientific rigour.
.

No lifetime studies, but enough short-term studies that are peer-reviewed. Happy to post links if you want to read them

 

[Annagain]

Surely, we're all (well most of us) just trying to do our best by our horses in the circumstances we're in, which are often out of our control if we're on livery? Without getting all Mother Theresa on you all, wouldn't it be lovely if we shared tips on how to make it more bearable for horse and owner when turnout is restricted rather than going over the same old argument time and time again?

I'm incredibly lucky that in 20 years at my yard, the horses have had one day where we were forced to keep them in by the YO. That was last year when we had 100mph + winds. We do have them in overnight from Dec to April though and I'm more than happy with this compromise to make sure they get turnout every day and enough grass all year round.

While their welfare is my number one reason for liking this arrangement, I must admit I am one of those leisure riders mentioned above for whom no turnout wouldn't work. I work full time, have a decent social life, do lots of other things and am a little bit of a fair weather rider. I couldn't and don't want to ride every day, even mucking out twice a day would be too much some days. The yard isn't set up for no turnout either in that we don't have a walker. or turnout pens for a play about. We have no services so if we go away or work late we have to rely on favours from friends. By February I'm counting down the days to when I can have a weekend away guilt free. I'm sure for most of us, decent turnout is as important to our welfare as it is to the horses'.

 

[Dexter]

Surely, we're all (well most of us) just trying to do our best by our horses in the circumstances we're in, which are often out of our control if we're on livery? Without getting all Mother Theresa on you all, wouldn't it be lovely if we shared tips on how to make it more bearable for horse and owner when turnout is restricted rather than going over the same old argument time and time again?

I don't think that's the case sadly. Some people are trying to do their best, lots arent. Theres post after post on this forum that illustrate that people keep horses because they want to ride and that over rides any concerns about horse welfare.

If people were trying to do their best then yards that keep horses in 24/7 wouldn't be running still.

 

[Annagain]

I don't think that's the case sadly. Some people are trying to do their best, lots arent. Theres post after post on this forum that illustrate that people keep horses because they want to ride and that over rides any concerns about horse welfare.

If people were trying to do their best then yards that keep horses in 24/7 wouldn't be running still.

The only way that could happen is if the number of horses in the country was roughly halved. Lots of people have horses on livery yards where they struggle for turnout because there's little other choice and, while they don't want to do that, their horses deal with it - with lots of mitigation - so they tolerate it. I totally agree that 24/7 is the holy grail for lots but equally it doesn't suit others and it often isn't possible so mitigating the lack of turnout is the key factor in those circumstances. I'd also say turnout and grazing are not the same and maybe the way things are going, turning some land over to big turnout pens (big enough for multiple horses to socialise for a decent length of time without squabbling) is one way forward. As for saying people could find turnout if they compromised on location or other factors, those yards would quickly fill up if everyone did that. It's far from ideal but it's the situation we're in so let's learn how to do our best with it.

 

[Gallop_Away]

I don't think that's the case sadly. Some people are trying to do their best, lots arent. Theres post after post on this forum that illustrate that people keep horses because they want to ride and that over rides any concerns about horse welfare.

If people were trying to do their best then yards that keep horses in 24/7 wouldn't be running still.

Well said! Without wanting to sound all high and mighty, as I've said previously, if I couldn't find somewhere to keep my horses that offered some form of turnout 365 days of the year, quite simply I wouldn't have horses. Our right to own horses shouldn't be at the expense of their welfare.

I recognise I am lucky. Winter turnout is common where I am in the UK and we are also incredibly lucky to have found a yard with enough space so that paddocks are rotated so that turnout is available all year round.

I understand some yards don't have the space or ground to offer winter turnout on their fields, but as I've said previously, turnout doesn't need to be on grass, there are other options to turn horses out for a few hours where they can move freely and interact with other horses. I do think yards should have the correct set ups to operate as livery yards. I also think owners need to be prepared to pay more in order to help yards fund these facilities.

 

[Pinkvboots]

In the 80's when I was a kid I went to a stables in Tottenham London it was just 2 rows of stables down a side road no fields at all, all the horses were driven everyday and some were sometimes ridden in the afternoon, it was mainly road work but there was a park and the marshes we could go on.

They all seemed happy enough I think most had been kept like that for a long time, they did go to a field for a holiday a few times a year for a couple of weeks.

I suppose its how alot of police horses in London are kept really.

 

[Tarragon]

As others have said, "Winter Turnout" doesn't necessarily mean a large grassy mud-free field, it just needs to be an appropriate space large enough for a horse to be a horse; to be able to have a roll, get rid of excess energy, play with friends and socialise.
I think that "turnout" should be considered as important to the horse's mental and physical welfare as the basics of the right food, water and shelter, and there are many different ways of providing this "turnout".
If the subject header had been "kept in a 12x12 stable all day unless exercised - Welfare Issue?", we would have all agreed!

 

[Peglo]

I believe most people try their best with their situations. But I think my set up works better for one pony more than the other.

Peggy is very antisocial and is better off with her own space, penned off from the others. She was the happiest she’s been since we built our stables and she moved over here with Flo who is sadly gone. They are stabled at night through winter, winters are rough up here with no natural shelter in their field and the grass is almost gone now so she is happy to come in. Out 24/7 through the summer.

Tali I think would likely be much more happy to have an open barn set up with my cousins mare as company instead of Peggy. She’s much more social and if I could, I would be happier with her having the option to come in and go as she pleases instead of being stabled when I decide. She is happy enough with coming in at night and seeing her friends through the day but I know it could be better for her. With different ponies I might be able to change the set up but for now this is what works best.

 

[HashRouge]

I don’t think anyone on here has a problem with stabling overnight. That’s not the same as stabling 24/7.

I have two in overnight currently and two who are free to choose. They tend to hang around in the yard with the stabled ones, so for them, companionship is clearly more important than exercise. Out of the two in at night, one definitely prefers it in the winter and one would love to be out, but is a cob, so left out would just eat everyone’s hay.

Just to clarify, my post was in a response to another poster who mentioned the "Horses living out" Facebook group. I was referring specifically to posters on that group, not on this forum.

 

[JFTDWS]

Necessity is the mother of invention - surfaced turnout, whether pens, larger areas or tracks, are becoming more and more common, and I think that's a good solution. It's not a substitute for proper undulating turnout space - particularly for youngstock / retired horses / summer grazing - in my opinion, but if it gets us through the wet winters without confining horses to stables 24/7, it'll do fine. Naturally, horse owners should expect livery prices to reflect the investment required for installing and maintaining surfaced turnout.

Mine live out 24/7 on grass at the moment - on clay, no surfaced areas, but other than the gateways there's very little mud and still grass growing in the fields. It's not perfect, but it's OK, and definitely better for them than being stabled. If I had them at home, I'd put in a surfaced area and limit winter access to grass. One day...

 

[MagicMelon]

Surely, we're all (well most of us) just trying to do our best by our horses in the circumstances we're in, which are often out of our control if we're on livery? Without getting all Mother Theresa on you all, wouldn't it be lovely if we shared tips on how to make it more bearable for horse and owner when turnout is restricted rather than going over the same old argument time and time again?

But shouldn't people find out about livery yards in their area BEFORE they get a horse? Most people would normally only consider getting a dog for example if they were home often etc. Most who work all day in an office and live in a tiny flat probably would think it wasnt fair to bring a dog into that. Why dont some people every consider that with a horse? I know its different if you already have a horse and then have to relocate for whatever reason, its something I worry about having always kept my horses at home (living out 24/7 with open stables with a hardcore yard and 24/7 access to a big hay bale) and maybe having to relocate to an area I doubt we can afford land so I'll have to consider livery. But I would try my absolute hardest to get 24/7 turnout, that would be absolute top of my list above fancy facilities etc. I think a lot of people put turnout pretty far down the list sadly.

I genuinely think a lot of people convince themselves that a horse living in 24/7 is ok because the horse basically shuts down and learns to live with it. Just because its not leaping to try and jump out all the time, it doesnt mean its happy. I got a horse who had lived in 24/7 all his life, the previous owners had said they'd tried putting him out for 20 min period but that he'd gallop around "and want back in". I found that bizarre. He was just really excited to be out IMO. I slowly increased the time the horse spent out over several weeks/months as it was all he'd ever known being in, once he was out 24/7 he was happy as anything, relaxing out with the other horses. Not a horse IMO who I was told "hated" being out.

 

[Lois Lame]

Speaking of fancy facilities, I'm a little bit shocked when I read about walkers, hot washing stations, indoor arenas, even, on yards. And then, the turnout will be abysmal. Too many horses, not enough land, but all this very expensive stuff. And yes, I'm not a competition rider (would be lovely to be that good - I used to wish for it, sort of, to a degree) but my mind does boggle a bit at what some yards offer, esp when stuff that I would wish for my horse isn't available in many of those places.

I hope this makes sense. I havn't had my coffee yet.

 

[HashRouge]

But shouldn't people find out about livery yards in their area BEFORE they get a horse? Most people would normally only consider getting a dog for example if they were home often etc. Most who work all day in an office and live in a tiny flat probably would think it wasnt fair to bring a dog into that. Why dont some people every consider that with a horse? I know its different if you already have a horse and then have to relocate for whatever reason, its something I worry about having always kept my horses at home (living out 24/7 with open stables with a hardcore yard and 24/7 access to a big hay bale) and maybe having to relocate to an area I doubt we can afford land so I'll have to consider livery. But I would try my absolute hardest to get 24/7 turnout, that would be absolute top of my list above fancy facilities etc. I think a lot of people put turnout pretty far down the list sadly.

The only problem with this is that it can be a bit tricky to find out what sort of winter turnout is really on offer if you don't know other horsey people in the area. And that might be the case if someone hasn't owned a horse before. I've just relocated mine and it was horrendously stressful, because even though we were moving to an area I knew well, my experience of keeping horses there is from 10 years previously and a lot of the horsey people I know/ knew have moved away or don't have horses anymore. I had to take a bit of a gamble on a yard in the end, although it has turned out to have pretty decent winter turnout. It's not the 24/7 that I had when I was down south, but it is all day every day regardless of the weather. But I was worried before I moved, because even though the YO said she liked horses to be out being horses, I didn't know anyone on the yard so couldn't ask what it was really like in the winter once everything got wet. I've moved to a much wetter area than where I was down south, so winter turnout is definitely harder!
I also think, sadly, some people genuinely don't know any better. They've always kept horses on yards where the fields are closed for weeks at a time in the winter, and so they just accept it as normal.

However, on a more positive note, I have noticed some changes in this area since I last kept horses here. One yard I was on for a bit and which used to shut its fields for weeks at a time in the winter is now running an equicentral track system, which is very welfare led (and no change of owner, just change of mindset!). There is another "new" yard which offers 24/7/365 on huge fields (it was a dairy farm when I moved away). I'd have liked to go there, but they have separate mare and gelding herds and I've got one of each and they're absolute best friends. There is also the yard I'm on, which has good winter turnout and was a private yard when I moved away. So there are definitely more options than there used to be for those of us who favour regular turnout.

 

[lannerch]

So is a horse on box rest for a welfare issue , a welfare issue because it’s not on daily turnout?

 

[Gloi]

We used to keep a stable herd of half a dozen various natives at my friend's. In winter after the foggage was eaten they were on a couple of acres of land with quite a bit of hard standing. We put hay for them on the hard standing and they stood round the hayrack and ate. They only seemed to move to go to the water trough and back. Sometimes they were laid down on waste hay. There was shelter around the field but almost always they were all at the hayrack. Being sensible natives they never wasted winter energy by running.
In theory they had all the freedom they liked to run ,play and exercise but in practice I'm sure none of them would have got their 10000 steps on their Fitbit unless they were ridden.
They all looked well on it though. Sadly the land is no longer available.

 

[[153312]]

So is a horse on box rest for a welfare issue , a welfare issue because it’s not on daily turnout?

yes, it is IMO. But arguably the lesser of two evils because it's 1) temporary and 2) will hopefully allow it to live for the rest of its life painfree (and with turnout). Not that the horse knows that obviously, but the fact that horses are so totally in the present moment and unable to comprehend/have an idea of that the future will be better is why it's a welfare issue to me.

This isn't saying I wouldn't and haven't box rested a horse - I've done so far too much recently actually - which is why I think it is a welfare problem.

 

[Kaylum]

Our horses were kept in big barns in the winter nights and in bad weather. They could roam around and have contact with each other. Our mares were kept in a fold yard with shelter. Again together and that wasin the 70s.
Stabling conditions also vary. Some stables don't have much daylight, fresh air or places that they can touch their friends. This has to be a big factor of welfare. My friends horse was kept in a dark stable and became very depressed. All our fields now have loafing areas with large field shelters which are bedded up. The grass part can be shut off when needed. Grass fields aren't always the answer to turn out.

 

[ycbm]

Mine were in a big barn at night, with cctv. Once my older one was 6 and stopped wanting to play, he spent most of the night either at a hay rack or standing/lying in one spot 20 feet away. Out on 10 acres in summer or winter he spent most of his time standing still in one of three spots I used to call the bedrooms.

Constant movement for horses with access to plenty of food is a myth, I think, which might suggest that a full belly is more important to a horse mentally than room to roam.
.

 

[Upthecreek]

Slightly off on a tangent, but it seems to be the case that less yards offer herd turnout these days. I used to be in favour of it, but badly managed introductions that liveries have no say in or control over, resulting in some nasty injuries (and many damaged rugs), has changed my mind. A different story of course if you are keeping horses at home and managing it yourself. Is it a welfare issue to not keep a herd animal in a herd (but able to interact with other horses over fencing)?

 

[HashRouge]

yes, it is IMO. But arguably the lesser of two evils because it's 1) temporary and 2) will hopefully allow it to live for the rest of its life painfree (and with turnout). Not that the horse knows that obviously, but the fact that horses are so totally in the present moment and unable to comprehend/have an idea of that the future will be better is why it's a welfare issue to me.

This isn't saying I wouldn't and haven't box rested a horse - I've done so far too much recently actually - which is why I think it is a welfare problem.

When I was 14, I faithfully box rested my little Arab for about 3 months (including 4 weeks at the equine hospital) after she had a fall and tore up one of her knees. This was on vet instruction, as I recall to both help the knee heal and reduce the likelihood of proud flesh forming. I have no doubt she did need her movement limiting BUT I look back almost 20 years later and wouldn't do the same again. That yard had a fab little all weather sand paddock, about 20m by 10m and I could easily have done small paddock turnout rather than box rest. After all, she could still move round and lie down/ stand up in her stable. She was a little star on box rest, but I do feel sad for her, looking back.

 

[Sossigpoker]

Speaking of fancy facilities, I'm a little bit shocked when I read about walkers, hot washing stations, indoor arenas, even, on yards. And then, the turnout will be abysmal. Too many horses, not enough land, but all this very expensive stuff. And yes, I'm not a competition rider (would be lovely to be that good - I used to wish for it, sort of, to a degree) but my mind does boggle a bit at what some yards offer, esp when stuff that I would wish for my horse isn't available in many of those places.

I hope this makes sense. I havn't had my coffee yet.

And a lot of places advertise their facilities but the turn out isn't even mentioned. Priorities totally wrong.

 

[bouncing_ball]

Constant movement for horses with access to plenty of food is a myth, I think, which might suggest that a full belly is more important to a horse mentally than room to roam.
.

We have a track / equicentral system.

Seems to me when allowed access to grass, water, hay spaced out, horses tend to have grazing bouts and loafing bouts.

In nature horses are designed to keep moving.

Yes if you offer adlib hay / grass / water in one place might stay there. Part of the idea of track to encourage movement for health is spacing the resources out.

I know some humans who’d pretty much stay on sofa all the time if food and drink handed to them! Doesn’t mean it’s good for their mobility / joints / health.

 

[JFTDWS]

Mine have about 3 acres at a time. Their forage is largely down one end, although there's grass across most of the field (short and winter quality). I know they spend time across the whole field from the distribution of manure, skid marks / hoof prints and from the fact I often have to walk the length of the field to catch them to ride them.

 

[Flowerofthefen]

For the first 3 winters I had my boy he wouldn't turn out. He would have killed himself if I hadn't bought him in, that's no exaggeration. I have a long term serious health issue and the last thing I needed , around a full time job, was a horse I had to make sure was exercised properly everyday of the week. It was draining and made me more ill. Luckily now we are up to 4 hours which is fine by me. I know a few people keep their horses in for convenience but there are other stories behind the scenes that can make turnout impossible. As long as everyone is doing their best fir their horse then I'm OK with that.

 

[Birker2020]

When I moved to the one yard I was told that it was turnout 365 days a year only to find out when I moved that turnout between October - May involved 2 hours a day in a sand paddock shared by another horse with a division down the middle so they were separated. They were given a large haynet that all the horses on the yard munched on throughout their time in the sand paddock and during the rest of the time they were given nets of hay in their stables. They had ropes across the doors so they could see each other. So every two hours another 2 horses went out, and this was repeated throughout the day.

It actually benefited Bailey as the time as she was recovering from a leg injury so I didn't want her running around in deep mud anyway. The fields were peat based so the drainage was awful and they got very poached in winter, hence no turn out. It wasn't ideal for a horse with arthritis but she managed fine and actually seemed happier in the stable.

Its not something I would choose for another horse but it suited our requirements at the time.

 

[Gallop_Away]

So is a horse on box rest for a welfare issue , a welfare issue because it’s not on daily turnout?

While it is not ideal, it is different when confining a horse to a stable is for its own good and a necessary evil. It is for the benefit of the horse that it is on box rest when recovering from an injury, whereas lack of turnout is of no benefit to the horse but is just for the convenience of humans.
Box rest is also temporary and there is a huge difference between say 12 weeks box rest as a one off to recover from an injury, and being confined to a stable for 6 months of the year, EVERY year.
I have box rested previously and would do again if necessary as long as it was in my horse's best interest to do so.