Normalizing restricted turnnout ?

[paddy555]

Well, that is a rather over-emotive scenario though isn't it? I'd imagine there are very few horses kept permanently in that exact scenario

why is it over emotive. Stabled horses live in a cage. It is most often concrete block, sometimes wood, often has weldmesh on the front or could have block and those U door entrances. You can paint it black and white and put hanging baskets up, bit of fancy brickwork but basically that is what it is. You are taking a flight animal and confining it.

There seem to be quite a lot of people saying liveries won't let horses out on fields because they are frozen, wet, muddy, could get damaged (either field or horse), or simply no turnout in winter. Some private owners may have the same policy.

I expect there are a fair few kept in livery yards that way especially in the less rural areas.
Horses turned out in single use paddocks without company which seems to becoming more common.

So we are taking a herd animal and preventing their natural behaviour. All the time the horse is alone in it's stable it has the 4 walls to look at.

Exercising does not give them their right to natural behaviour. It simply means we keep them fit for how we want to ride them or is the minimum to keep them healthy, not obese and away from the vet.

I cannot see the relevance of wild or not. It is a case of them behaving as that species would naturally. Their natural behaviour is to groom each other, to dig and share a rolling place, to play, to canter around tails in the air, snorting, high blowing at the slightest provocation. To eat grass, browse the hedges and hanging trees, to dig grass out of the snow, to lie down whilst one of the group stands guard.
.

 

[paddy555]

My big mare only has one wish in the whole world and that is to have hay or grass in front of her nose.... the gelding is more complex and likes free running and social interactions so he does miss turnout if he's not getting it. Fortunately for him he can have 24/7 herd life for about 45 to 50 weeks of the year in my current set up. Working towards the full 52. They've currently been iced "in" for nearly 3 weeks. I let them out if their stables into a mooch pen and a large bit of barn with patio during the day, but the gelding can't be in with the mares as he chases them on the rough ground. The ground is safe for gentle mare mooching but not for silly gelding antics. It's not ideal but I'd like to think they are resilient enough to cope for a few weeks. Plus it seems a fair trade off for not having to run away from lions their whole lives. Well it does to me. My lot would just get eaten straight away anyway.

so your horses are basically getting everything they need to satisfy their natural behaviour. It is not about this cold spell but about those kept in with no turnout in yards in winter as a matter of course.

 

[AdorableAlice]

A JCB would have trouble digging holes at the moment.

 

[stormox]

why is it over emotive. Stabled horses live in a cage. It is most often concrete block, sometimes wood, often has weldmesh on the front or could have block and those U door entrances. You can paint it black and white and put hanging baskets up, bit of fancy brickwork but basically that is what it is. You are taking a flight animal and confining it.
So we are taking a herd animal and preventing their natural behaviour. All the time the horse is alone in it's stable it has the 4 walls to look at.
.

My horse does not stand looking at her 4 walls. She looks over the door, looks out the back, eats her net eats her haylage/ rough forage on the floor, drinks, goes to her lick..... she can even touch noses and pull faces with her mate as the stables are on a corner.

 

[AdorableAlice]

so your horses are basically getting everything they need to satisfy their natural behaviour. It is not about this cold spell but about those kept in with no turnout in yards in winter as a matter of course.

Please tell us how all yards, livery, event, showjump, dealers, under rules etc should operate to achieve your ideals. And detail the charges that should be levied on owners.

 

[oldie48]

so your horses are basically getting everything they need to satisfy their natural behaviour. It is not about this cold spell but about those kept in with no turnout in yards in winter as a matter of course.

Actually it wasn't (see the quote below from the OP) but it got turned into having a bit of a pop at anyone who couldn't or didn't offer their horse turn out regardless of the weather conditions and then into a bit of a rant about people who keep their horses in 24/7. TBH I'm not sure that anyone who responded does keep their horses in like that, most I'm sure like their horses to be out in a field with the sun on their back and the grass growing. Roll on Spring!

"No idea why I have just wasted 5 mins if my life reading what I hope is supposed to be a light hearted article and is has riled me. You look at the weather and it's a black cloud so you know your horse will be in again. Your horse has been in fir 2 days and now you live schooling as he does passage when all you want is working trot.
Articles like this in well respected magazines make it sound normal for many. Why do you fo this horse and hound just why ? "

 

[milliepops]

Roll on Spring!

OMG this!!!

it's just started snowing again *wail*

 

[honetpot]

They aren't actually wild animals though. They can be feral but they aren't wild. The shared history with humans does count for something. Comparison with caged tigers is hyperbolic.

I'm not saying that horses kept stabled 23/7 for 6 months of the year is all cool. It isn't. We need to work away from that scenario. But we must also be sympathetic to the fact that they are domestic creatures. Not wild ones.

They do not have to be wild, basic physiology which has not changed governs their behaviour.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight-or-flight_response
If we as humans, the most adapted domesticated animal, can not change our basic normal responses to stress, and we have been living in confined spaces for many thousands of years, why would any animal adapt so quickly to be kept confined in a small space on its own.
Cattle handling and care is a very well developed science, using cattle basic drives enables them to be moved and controlled safely, even domesticated cattle that have been selectively bred for hundreds of years still are worked with these methods. They have lived as farmed animals with humans for thousands of years.
The huge difference is because cattle are weighed and measures on a regular basis, stress reduces weight gain, and human safety, make it important that handling and handling systems are designed to suit cattle. The work of Temple Grandin, how her autism helped her to have insight to how cattle perceived things because of how they have evolved as help the industry develop more humane safe systems.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Grandin

 

[PapaverFollis]

No I understand that but we have selectively bred the ones that can cope with the needs of domestication for quite a while. All I'm saying is that it counts for something. They aren't wild animals.

 

[ycbm]

You are taking a flight animal and confining it.

Whilst this is true it is not the full picture. You are also removing the necessity for flight and the necessity to scan constantly for the potential need for flight.

My mare was interesting when I bought her in June. She had been all of her 7 years in one place with no field shelters, and never kept in overnight. She shook with nerves for a whole week. And every time she felt the tiniest bit afraid she ran for the barn which had free access but no food. She spent so much time inside walls, where she appeared to feel safe, that after a couple of weeks I felt forced to lock her out.

There is safety in solid walls that predators can't get through, and many horses know it.
.

 

[paddy555]

My horse does not stand looking at her 4 walls. She looks over the door, looks out the back, eats her net eats her haylage/ rough forage on the floor, drinks, goes to her lick..... she can even touch noses and pull faces with her mate as the stables are on a corner.

and where does she do this bit?

Their natural behaviour is to groom each other, to dig and share a rolling place, to play, to canter around tails in the air, snorting, high blowing at the slightest provocation. To eat grass, browse the hedges and hanging trees, to dig grass out of the snow, to lie down whilst one of the group stands guard.

 

[honetpot]

No I understand that but we have selectively bred the ones that can cope with the needs of domestication for quite a while. All I'm saying is that it counts for something. They aren't wild animals.[/QUOTE
That may be down to selective breeding for traits, or habituation, but the basic physiological needs will be the same, and like people vary in each individual based on previous experience. In humans solitary confinement is used as a punishment, and different people will have different coping strategies.
I am not saying do not keep a horse in a stable, but make changes so all its needs are met, which will vary from horse to horse, for its well-being.
I think the obsession with keeping horses in12x12 boxes and it being seen as good husbandry, is partly down to 'horse porn' in magazine where every horse is perfectly clean, groomed and usually overweight. The real world for most horses and owners is that they do not need to be clean and perfectly groomed and a lot could do with losing weight over the winter.

There is safety in solid walls that predators can't get through, and many horses know it.

If they thought this they would live in caves. Habituation and food is usually part of the training to get a horse to tolerate any confined space.

 

[ycbm]

If they thought this they would live in caves. Habituation and food is usually part of the training to get a horse to tolerate any confined space.

Habituation had no part in my mare's behaviour. She had lived all of her 7 years out full time in fields with no field shelters.

She recognised safety when she saw it. She isn't the first horse I've seen who knew predators don't come through walls.
.

 

[PapaverFollis]

All I'm saying honetpot is that they ain't tigers. The fact that they are able to be habituated so well is down to their domestication.

 

[Equine_Dream]

no problem with the exercise. The problem I have is that with 24/7 stabled horses their only movement is exercise. They have no chance to be horses and indulge in horse behaviour.

This! And this is why I do not think they can be classed as the same. Exercise may provide the horse some of the physical movement it needs but it can not give the horse the same freedom to move that it has with turnout. It also can not subsidise the mental stimulation and social interaction that a horse gets from turnout.

 

[honetpot]

I hate all this posts trying to make us feel guilty about the way.we care for our horses.
I am sure we all do the best we can with the circumstances, time and money we have.
How do we REALLY know if our horses are happy? When mines munching hay in a stable on a stormy evening she seems happy. If she finds a tasty but of grass outside she seems happy.
But equally she seems happy trotting out on a hack, or pricking her ears when she sees a jump.
Horses are adaptable animals, over the centuries humans have used and bred from horses that have been able to adapt to our way of life.
I dont know if a horse can even feel the emotion 'happy'.... content maybe.
Enjoy your horse and do the best you can for him - remember the old 'horses prayer'.

I agree they are very adaptable. The miners pit ponies spent most of their year a couple of miles underground, and from the film footage
I have seen looked very well on it. They had exercise, human and equine company and were obviously well adapted but that's a huge difference from being in a 12x12 box with no stimulation and no company and little exercise.
The only way you can assess if an animal is happy is stress levels, usually measured with cortisol blood levels.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fvets.2019.00289/full
All I can say is there are enough calming, ulcer medication, behaviour issue threads and questions to make me think unscientifically there is a growing problem.

 

[DabDab]

The dog analogy is interesting because the theory of what is natural would suggest that we should keep them in packs, but we rarely do. And the ones that are kept in packs are usually also confined in kennels, which one would suggest isn't natural either.

Incidentally, my dogs do, quite of their own accord, confine themselves to a sort of fabric and mesh pen thing with beds in that we have in the kitchen. They could go outside, amble around the house, lie of sofas etc, but they choose the pen, and spend probably in excess of 20 hours a day in there.

My dogs are a long way from wolves I suppose, but then my fine sports horse is about a country mile from the small, hairy, hardy equids that would probably tend to exist here if it weren't for humans.

Yes horses need their needs met in terms of expressing natural behaviour but there are a variety of ways that can be achieved alongside/in combination with turnout in what are generally fairly unnatural patches of land. And for those who have 15 acres of mixed grassland for 5 horses, lucky you, but it is not realistic for most people and not all horses kept differently are repressed/shut down or whatever.

 

[stormox]

and where does she do this bit?

Their natural behaviour is to groom each other, to dig and share a rolling place, to play, to canter around tails in the air, snorting, high blowing at the slightest provocation.

I dont think outside horses do this much unless they are extremely well fed. They are more likely to standround a bale or shelter under a hedge in winter. Mine always rush in but have to be dragged out this weather. That says something!

 

[BBP]

It is interesting how many people are suffering from mental health issues during lockdown, told to stay inside, go out only to exercise once a day and not interact with friends or family other than remotely. I’m always impressed at the adaptability of horses to live in the world we create for them without going a bit mad and wonder how many ‘seem happy’ but are quietly affected.

 

[PapaverFollis]

Lockdown has been mixed bag for mental health. Not everyone has suffered, some people have actually got improved mental health. The majority (though by no means all) of the mental health issues seem to have links to financial stress (I was reading an article in New Scientist again, I appreciate that'sa bold statement and I didn't check the source material and also may be misremembering... it's not crucial to my point here). And we can't rule out the role of the constant threat of illness and the contradictory information we have to filter through... so being restricted physically and socially is only part of the picture. If I was domesticating humans I'd be breeding from the ones that had coped well with lockdown.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Everyone is doing the best with what they have and while some ways of keeping animals may not be the way in which I would, as long as they are cared for and their needs met (food, water, not being cold) then so be it.
The issue I have is with people who have the opportunity to be better and choose not to, eg: the horse kept in 24/7 in case it hurts itself, stabled on a yard with the best turnout I have ever seen.
Jacob is out 24/7 at the moment with rutted and frozen ground for about the first 10m of gateway, on his own, next to the herd. It's not ideal but I am waiting for a stable and I can't feed/hay just him if he is out with the herd all the time. Slag me off all you like, I am doing the best with what I have got, as is *mostly* everyone else, and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[milliepops]

Whilst this is true it is not the full picture. You are also removing the necessity for flight and the necessity to scan constantly for the potential need for flight.

My mare was interesting when I bought her in June. She had been all of her 7 years in one place with no field shelters, and never kept in overnight. She shook with nerves for a whole week. And every time she felt the tiniest bit afraid she ran for the barn which had free access but no food. She spent so much time inside walls, where she appeared to feel safe, that after a couple of weeks I felt forced to lock her out.

There is safety in solid walls that predators can't get through, and many horses know it.
.

yes, i think this is what has slowly happened with Kira. She had lived on her own for several years before I got her, and had un-learned how to be a stabled horse in that time. she lived outdoors, and when I got her she would stand on high alert, as far from wooded or scrubby areas as she could get, constantly scanning for monsters. Having company didn't change her behaviour in that respect.
i think that's part of the reason she wouldn't go in the shelter she had, because she needed to be on the lookout.

gradually she lost the hunted look and seems to have learnt that she's been provided with a safe place to be. We used to struggle even to get her to stand undercover to be shod, and now she puts herself in her box, sleeps in there, sees it as her space. She is still anxious about woods and hedges but the stable is now 100% safe to her.

 

[paddy555]

Please tell us how all yards, livery, event, showjump, dealers, under rules etc should operate to achieve your ideals. And detail the charges that should be levied on owners.

that sums it up in a nutshell. Some horses are being kept in conditions that don't take into account their natural behaviour just so humans can do what they want with them. In some of those environments horses will be kept in 24/7. This thread started off about horses in 24/7 because the yards wouldn't let them out.

Big changes are needed in horse keeping methods for the leisure horse. Livery yards need to adapt to provide tracks,, grass free turnout, dry turn out, stocking rates equal to the grazing available and horses able to go out for part of the day all year round.

Do you think a horse has the right to this (in italics)? should it be part of horse keeping requirements along with feeding, watering, foot care etc etc

If you don't then we are on totally different sides of the fence and a million miles apart.


Their natural behaviour is to groom each other, to dig and share a rolling place, to play, to canter around tails in the air, snorting, high blowing at the slightest provocation. To eat grass, browse the hedges and hanging trees, to dig grass out of the snow, to lie down whilst one of the group stands guard.

 

[Goldenstar]

What about kennelled, working dogs paddy? Should they all come into the house?

No roaming the streets in packs .

 

[Goldenstar]

What’s natural about grass free turnout ?

 

[AdorableAlice]

that sums it up in a nutshell. Some horses are being kept in conditions that don't take into account their natural behaviour just so humans can do what they want with them. In some of those environments horses will be kept in 24/7. This thread started off about horses in 24/7 because the yards wouldn't let them out.

Big changes are needed in horse keeping methods for the leisure horse. Livery yards need to adapt to provide tracks,, grass free turnout, dry turn out, stocking rates equal to the grazing available and horses able to go out for part of the day all year round.

Do you think a horse has the right to this (in italics)? should it be part of horse keeping requirements along with feeding, watering, foot care etc etc

If you don't then we are on totally different sides of the fence and a million miles apart.


Their natural behaviour is to groom each other, to dig and share a rolling place, to play, to canter around tails in the air, snorting, high blowing at the slightest provocation. To eat grass, browse the hedges and hanging trees, to dig grass out of the snow, to lie down whilst one of the group stands guard.

I am on the realistic side of the fence.

 

[ycbm]

Paddy what you want for all horses is not achievable in the modern UK.

I have owned horses who did not want any of what you claim all horses want, but that's not the point I want to focus on.

Should the horses which are not being kept in the way you feel all horses should be kept be allowed to die out and not be replaced?

Because it seems to me that is the logical conclusion of what you are saying, that the number of horses kept in the UK should drastically reduce. And I'm pretty certain that most of those horses would rather be alive in what you think are sub-optimal living arrangements than never be alive at all.
.

 

[paddy555]

I am on the realistic side of the fence.

ah, so I guess you don't think the horse deserves to indulge his natural behaviour and we are going to have to differ in a very big way.

 

[paddy555]

What’s natural about grass free turnout ?

if you have an off grass cushings or laminitic then a lot as people don't seem to find it very easy to get.

 

[DabDab]

ah, so I guess you don't think the horse deserves to indulge his natural behaviour and we are going to have to differ in a very big way.

The way you describe keeping your horses doesn't sound that natural tbh.

Just because you have self-styled yourself as an expert on natural horse behaviour does not mean that a random list of behaviours that you have come up with is either exhaustive or the most important ones.

ETA: none of my horses have ever had to dig grass out of the snow (on your list). As you can imagine, their misery at the absence of this in their lives is palpable ?