Normalizing restricted turnnout ?

[DabDab]

Most of mine is rut free, theres just a bit at the edge of the hardstanding. They came cantering over this morning, broke to a walk near the rutted bit, carefully tip toed over it and lined up inside for breakfast. Mine are native/cobby ponies though so incredibly sensible and dont seem to really notice the weather.

Well one of mine is a native...
Another of mine is completely ridiculous in the field and it is no exaggeration to say that we are out fixing fencing at least once a month because she's crashed through another section. But she's not silly on frozen ruts, presumable because it actively hurts as she is going over it, which is the main reason I wouldn't turn out on it if mine couldn't get over the rutted section relatively easily.

I honestly can't ever remember seeing a horse hooleying over deeply rutted frozen ground. I really don't think it's a particularly nice environment if they have to spend any length of time walking around on it.

 

[Michen]

Well one of mine is a native...
Another of mine is completely ridiculous in the field and it is no exaggeration to say that we are out fixing fencing at least once a month because she's crashed through another section. But she's not silly on frozen ruts, presumable because it actively hurts as she is going over it, which is the main reason I wouldn't turn out on it if mine couldn't get over the rutted section relatively easily.

I honestly can't ever remember seeing a horse hooleying over deeply rutted frozen ground. I really don't think it's a particularly nice environment if they have to spend any length of time walking around on it.

Hehe, mine do. Not at speed but they like to rear and get a bit silly at the gateway. But certainly not charging around.

 

[Littlewills]

I think if the field was rutted mine would stick to the barn/hard standing. I can't imagine them hooleying over it either TBH

 

[paddy555]

It's not remotely. I just said in my above post if I had sensible horses, they too would be turned out. If I could trust them to pick their way over poached frozen ground in a calm manner.

But you have actively said on here your ground is the same as mine (aka poached, frozen and hard to walk on as a human), and your horses are charging around on it, and you are cool with that. And you are judging people who are choosing to protect their horses from that (weather medical circumstances are relevant or not) through stabling because you believe it cruel.

I just find it odd that the risk of injury in those circumstances is ok, but stabling them for a bit to protect them from it is not.

Life with horses is a constant risk. Are mine at risk going out into a field they go into daily that has been frozen for several days than say a horse going hunting. Risk of going over an unknown jump and injury. Travelling, I've seen enough trailers overturn or horses go over bars in 3.5 lorries. Everywhere is risk of injury. We could protect them from everything by wrapping them in cotton wool. Is there more risk to mine from the stress of being shut in for what will be around 8 days and nights? yes I think there is so out they go.

I thought this thread in general was about stabling horses and it seems that some (many) are expected to live in stables just about all winter with minimal chance to act out normal horse behaviour each day. That is what I object to and yes, I do think it is cruel. A walk at each end of the day still leaves 23 hours or so looking at 4 walls. In comparison a hamster has a larger area to live in than a horse in a 12 x 12 stable.

 

[scats]

I’m pretty open minded about the way people choose to keep their horses, although I will always think some form of turnout in winter should be provided. Obviously weather will always play a part and might scupper a few days/weeks at a time, which I think most horses cope with fine for short periods.

But playing devils advocate with myself, if I went on the dog forum and someone told me they had a dog but from October to April they stay in a crate 23hours a day, but it’s ok coz they get a good hour walk in the afternoon, I’d be horrified.
I suppose it’s quite funny how we humans can have different opinions about very similar situations.

My girls have been out on the hard ground this last few days, but I’ve put them in my flatter field where it’s just rutted at the gate and they just pottered across it like a couple of women in high heels and went to the piles of hay where they spent the day in the sunshine munching.

 

[PapaverFollis]

A couple of weeks while the ground is more risky than normal and the odd day here and there when everything is sodden to protect the field is really quite different to no turnout at all all winter.

 

[AdorableAlice]

quite easily from the look of them. They don't have shoes so perhaps that helps. I have never not turned out on this sort of surface. Lots of people I know have horses out 24/7 on this with just a hay feeder or shelter.

What type of horses do you have ?

 

[paddy555]

What type of horses do you have ?

criollos, spanish x, TB/highland

 

[milliepops]

My ones with small neat feet are fairly happy on frozen lumpy ground but the ones with flat feet are very uncomfortable.

 

[Michen]

Deleted as it's just not worth the effort

 

[AdorableAlice]

criollos, spanish x, TB/highland

That makes sense, smaller types and hardy breeds. I would expect those types to cope with the current ground conditions better than the type I keep.

 

[hock]

I remember Roding the Roding school ponies to the stables for winter and them riding them back to the grazing in Spring in the 80’s too. I also remember the ponies always wanting to roll in puddles and wanting to get their heads down to eat, quite sad really. Ignorance is bliss.

Horses for courses. I have one horse that wants to be out for about an hour every day and then be brought in to stand in front of his Haynet. He has to go out everyday though otherwise he’s savage. Another one of mine was getting fed up of coming in so I’ve turned her out with the babies for the rest of the winter. I’m lucky to be able to choose and would hate to have to have that decision taken out of my hands.

 

[paddy555]

My ones with small neat feet are fairly happy on frozen lumpy ground but the ones with flat feet are very uncomfortable.

yes the criollos have the small neater feet, the spanish x and TB/highland have larger but good vertical height and good concavity plus barefoot conditioned feet and barefoot from birth. Luckily the TB/highland inherited the better highland feet just bigger,

For those criticising me there is no slowing down/mincing over the rutted ground, they just march off. If they minced I wouldn't put them on it.

 

[Tiddlypom]

It’s not just whether the feet are sensitive, though. It’s the risk of the horse twisting a foot or leg awkwardly in a rut, with resultant soft tissue damage or even a fracture.

 

[ycbm]

I expect all horses, no matter what their feet are like, to pick their way carefully across the ruts in a gateway. I wouldn't turn out a horse over them which is daft enough to charge around on frozen ruts, it's asking for a badly bruised foot at best or a broken pedal bone at worst.

 

[AdorableAlice]

It’s not just whether the feet are sensitive, though. It’s the risk of the horse twisting a foot or leg awkwardly in a rut, with resultant soft tissue damage or even a fracture.

I dare say the vets are pretty busy at the moment. My husband is moaning tonight, I sent him boundary fence checking. He is moaning his left knee is twisted and his right ankle hurts along with a lot of chuntering about the mess the horses have made. I am having to give him some bute if he is to be sound in the morning !

 

[paddy555]

It’s not just whether the feet are sensitive, though. It’s the risk of the horse twisting a foot or leg awkwardly in a rut, with resultant soft tissue damage or even a fracture.

the alternative would be leaving them stabled all the time. (we don't have an indoor school or barn where they could run loose) For this bout of frozen weather and presuming it starts to thaw at the w/e that would be around 9 days at least until thawed, possibly 10. They are ridden 7 days a week and one is ridden twice daily. The rest of the time they are out in the fields. So shutting them in stables for that length of time isn't going to do them a great deal of good with no exercise especially as one is PSSM. Mentally it would probably crucify them as it would be such a different lifestyle. Stress would risk colic. They cannot be exercised as the roads are too icy.

 

[Michen]

the alternative would be leaving them stabled all the time. (we don't have an indoor school or barn where they could run loose) For this bout of frozen weather and presuming it starts to thaw at the w/e that would be around 9 days at least until thawed, possibly 10. They are ridden 7 days a week and one is ridden twice daily. The rest of the time they are out in the fields. So shutting them in stables for that length of time isn't going to do them a great deal of good with no exercise especially as one is PSSM. Mentally it would probably crucify them as it would be such a different lifestyle. Stress would risk colic. They cannot be exercised as the roads are too icy.

Perhaps you should consider what you would do if you had a horse who had to be box rested (suspected fracture perhaps). I would work on making your horses unstressed at the idea of being in a stable. It might save their lives some day.

 

[ycbm]

"Crucify"? Paddy i turn out whatever, but even I think you are overdramatising the potential harm of keeping in, except, perhaps, to the PSSM one.

Most horses are very stoic about being in a box for a week or two.

ETA if I gave mine a choice at this time of year I think they would be in more than out. They are out because i don't want to feed more and much out more!

 

[Michen]

I expect all horses, no matter what their feet are like, to pick their way carefully across the ruts in a gateway. I wouldn't turn out a horse over them which is daft enough to charge around on frozen ruts, it's asking for a badly bruised foot at best or a broken pedal bone at worst.

It’s not just that though. For example my horses might pick there way over it but then Bear will go to grab Boggles rug and Vice Versa so you get awkward sudden movements on treacherous footing which could cause a serious injury. Even if they are being “sensible” (mine aren’t remotely- little terrors)

 

[paddy555]

Paddy i turn out whatever, but even I think you are overdramatising the potential harm of keeping in, except, perhaps, to the PSSM one.

Most horses are very stoic about being in a box for a week or two.

each to their own. We are quite happy with our situation.

the PSSM one spent 5 days at horse hospital. He was in cage stables in an indoor barn. They sent him home as he couldn't cope. He would never cope I expect due to PSSM which is untrainable.

 

[paddy555]

Perhaps you should consider what you would do if you had a horse who had to be box rested (suspected fracture perhaps). I would work on making your horses unstressed at the idea of being in a stable. It might save their lives some day.

perhaps we would just do better if I stuck to my horses welfare and I'll leave you to your tildren/steroids.

 

[sherry90]

the alternative would be leaving them stabled all the time. (we don't have an indoor school or barn where they could run loose) For this bout of frozen weather and presuming it starts to thaw at the w/e that would be around 9 days at least until thawed, possibly 10. They are ridden 7 days a week and one is ridden twice daily. The rest of the time they are out in the fields. So shutting them in stables for that length of time isn't going to do them a great deal of good with no exercise especially as one is PSSM. Mentally it would probably crucify them as it would be such a different lifestyle. Stress would risk colic. They cannot be exercised as the roads are too icy.

you say you ride twice a day/ridden 7 days and one is PSSM so needs exercise but then say ‘they cannot be exercised’ ??‍

I find a lot of people who turn out 24/7 tend to be a bit holy than thou which grates on me a bit, having had a good doer who became laminitic out 24/7. He then got mud fever on track livery and became depressed not having access to grass. My compromise to keep him healthy and happy is that he is on a livery with good facilities (indoor) so can be worked year round to keep the weight off him and he gets turned out to grass approx half a day year round (bar the odd day when weather is terrible, this winter it’s been about 3days non consecutively so far) he is extremely happy to come into haynets and has a lot of social interaction.
On the flip side I could find grass livery somewhere, chuck him out 24/7 he’d possibly become overweight and laminitic come spring and then need to be box rested or on a grass free area which both would be much more detrimental to his well-being.

 

[sherry90]

perhaps we would just do better if I stuck to my horses welfare and I'll leave you to your tildren/steroids.

IMO thats uncalled for.

 

[Michen]

perhaps we would just do better if I stuck to my horses welfare and I'll leave you to your tildren/steroids.

Eh? Oh are we now going down the route of “you must not medicate a horse” in any way. Jeez, I thought you were a bit nuts from some of the stuff you posted on the Covid thread but... ?‍

 

[ycbm]

perhaps we would just do better if I stuck to my horses welfare and I'll leave you to your tildren/steroids.

Wow. Well out of order Paddy!

 

[BronsonNutter]

My horses are in. They're quite content about it, they can touch/groom over their half wall, and get an hour out together in our frozen arena in the mornings (I also put them out for a little while this evening whilst mucking out again). They're both TBs and are content if they have each other/another friend, and food. Neither are getting ridden as much as I'd like but again, they don't seem to care too much. It seems to be me who is more stressed out about them being in, and it's definitely far less convenient!!

Their field is currently frozen into ruts/potholes which are generally 6-12 inches deep, with 2x frozen lakes in the middle of it. The entire field is like this, not just the gateway. I can't even walk round it without struggling, let alone my ungainly TBs. They lost 4 shoes in it over the course of the weekend and one came in lame (he has had multiple lower limb injuries and I am concerned as to how many more he can cope with before I have to call it quits and PTS him), hence why they are now staying in until the ground improves. If we were back home on lovely sandy well draining soil then they'd definitely still be out.

 

[paddy555]

you say you ride twice a day/ridden 7 days and one is PSSM so needs exercise but then say ‘they cannot be exercised’ ??‍

I find a lot of people who turn out 24/7 tend to be a bit holy than thou which grates on me a bit, having had a good doer who became laminitic out 24/7. He then got mud fever on track livery and became depressed not having access to grass. My compromise to keep him healthy and happy is that he is on a livery with good facilities (indoor) so can be worked year round to keep the weight off him and he gets turned out to grass approx half a day year round (bar the odd day when weather is terrible, this winter it’s been about 3days non consecutively so far) he is extremely happy to come into haynets and has a lot of social interaction.
On the flip side I could find grass livery somewhere, chuck him out 24/7 he’d possibly become overweight and laminitic come spring and then need to be box rested or on a grass free area which both would be much more detrimental to his well-being.

I'm totally lost with your first para. I have no idea what you are talking about.

I don't see where the 24/7 comes from in relation to me. As your post quoted mine I guess all the comments are directed to me?. So I am well aware of the problems of laminitis/grass. I managed my own PPID horse for nearly 10 years, completely off grass but kept outside wandering during each day with company.

 

[paddy555]

Wow. Well out of order Paddy!

nope, simply a reply to someone who has no idea of me, my horses or their training telling me I should work on making my horses unstressed at the idea of being in a stable.

 

[Michen]

nope, simply a reply to someone who has no idea of me, my horses or their training telling me I should work on making my horses unstressed at the idea of being in a stable.

Well you were the one who said if they were stables they’d be so stressed they’d colic. If all 7 of your horses are like that then that’s somewhat unusual...

I really am intrigued as to what you’d do if ever one of them needed box resting?

So a valid thought, I reckon!