Normalizing restricted turnnout ?

[Ellibelli]

These horses have shelter, hay and grass, but they still lined up hopefully when I popped out just now to steam more hay for tonight .

View attachment 65721

’If you’re offering, we don’t mind coming in now instead of at 7pm!’

I had a brain wave and put their front hoof boots on to protect their feet from bruising on the frozen ground. I’d have put hinds on too, but my back is struggling enough as it is with the extra work during the cold snap.

As I said upthread mine are out 24/7 with constant access to their stables, but they still wander in if they happen to be in the field when they see me on the yard, but I think that's because they associate me with a bucket feed? If they wanted to come in to their stables there would be nothing stopping them.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Leaving the horses free access to their stables would not work here.

The dominant IDx mare, the bay, would corner and squish either/both of the others in a stable, it would not end prettily .

They do have a choice of two rubber matted double entranced field shelters, though, one facing south, one facing north, to suit the prevailing wind. It’s just that they like their creature comforts of deep shavings bed, hay on tap etc etc .

Wimps.

 

[Lammy]

I too think there is a massive difference between keeping horses in for a few days at a time due to adverse weather versus fields being shut for 3/4/5 months at a time. That in my mind is not ok whether the horses are being worked once or twice a day or not.
Personally standing in a box for 22+ hours a day for me does not adhere to number 4 of the five freedoms:
1. Freedom from hunger and thirst
2. Freedom from discomfort
3. Freedom from pain, injury and disease
4. Freedom to express normal behaviour
5. Freedom from fear and distress.

I totally understand that it is a necessity in some circumstances and for limited periods of time it’s ok if unavoidable. But for whole seasons? No, I think we need to do better by horses. I would prefer to see an increase in group housing, all weather turnout pens or hard standing at yards for when fields are too bad to turn out in. I think bypassing a horses mental health for human benefit is terribly sad.

 

[sherry90]

the alternative would be leaving them stabled all the time. (we don't have an indoor school or barn where they could run loose) For this bout of frozen weather and presuming it starts to thaw at the w/e that would be around 9 days at least until thawed, possibly 10. They are ridden 7 days a week and one is ridden twice daily. The rest of the time they are out in the fields. So shutting them in stables for that length of time isn't going to do them a great deal of good with no exercise especially as one is PSSM. Mentally it would probably crucify them as it would be such a different lifestyle. Stress would risk colic. They cannot be exercised as the roads are too icy.

You say here they are ridden daily but then go on to say they can’t be exercised. I don’t think we disagree that turnout if preferred but your attitude towards others who are managing their horse/s based on their needs is astounding. I merely used my own horse as an example as to why what you later refer to as a ‘cage’ is preferable (for some part of the day) is preferable for others, as is no turnout, for reasons the owner decides based on knowing their horse and the facilities they can afford/offer the horse.

 

[Gingerwitch]

I do think its easier to keep in than turnnout for livery yards. Firstly changing rugs, booting up, putting head collars on, walking to field, breaking water, walking back repeat till all out. Then add all the work required to set fair the fields afterwards. Rather than walk round with a Barrow of hay or haylidge. This then becomes easy for the yard, less time and less staff and the owners feel moony culty and fit in.

 

[paddy555]

You say here they are ridden daily but then go on to say they can’t be exercised.

their normal routine is daily exercise plus the rest of the time in the field

If they were stabled 24/7 over the period of the frozen ground then they would get no time in the field and no exercise as the roads are too icy to take them out either on foot or ridden so they would get no time out whatsoever.
hopefully that is now clear.

 

[stormox]

I too think there is a massive difference between keeping horses in for a few days at a time due to adverse weather versus fields being shut for 3/4/5 months at a time. That in my mind is not ok whether the horses are being worked once or twice a day or not.
I totally understand that it is a necessity in some circumstances and for limited periods of time it’s ok if unavoidable. But for whole seasons? No, I think we need to do better by horses. I would prefer to see an increase in group housing, all weather turnout pens or hard standing at yards for when fields are too bad to turn out in. I think bypassing a horses mental health for human benefit is terribly sad.

It would be so much easier if horses weren't so intent on injuring themselves and each other....

 

[AdorableAlice]

It would be so much easier if horses weren't so intent on injuring themselves and each other....

Best comment ever.

 

[Lammy]

It would be so much easier if horses weren't so intent on injuring themselves and each other....

Life would be easier in general if horses didn’t seem to have a self destruct button installed.
However, that doesn’t mean they should be refused the right to be horses. I have a horse who had a potentially life ending field injury. Had nothing to do with other horses, it was in the summer, in a big field, perfect weather conditions. Should I never turn him out again in case he hurts himself?
I mean he’s also tried to kill himself tied up on the yard so maybe he shouldn’t be allowed out of his stable at all.

I for one find it scary that people don’t see the issue with keeping a horse by itself in a stable for 90% of the day 7 days a week...

 

[honetpot]

When I was a teenager I helped on a traditionally built working farm yard with stalls built for working horses in about 1900. The stalls could have not been more than six feet wide, with cobbled sloping floor into a drain. The partitions were solid at the bottom with, bars at the top, they were on a chain and noggin, and could lie down in the stall. Through the winter they were in them 22hours a day, only taken out to be watered, exercised and mucked out. They got hay and water. I can not remember any of them having problems, they were a mixed lot bought in from a variety of sources. No stable vices, no colic and calm enough to be taken out on hack, with no use of an all weather school.
So what is the change? Is it that they were able to see and hear each other, had large amounts of forage, or they were a different type of animal? They were either out 24/7 on basically marsh land, it's now a nature reserve, or in, those that were out were never rugged.

I have kept horses on very smart purpose built yards, to converted piggeries, and the places where they are most settled seem to be where they can see each other, and have plenty to eat. The loose boxes mainly sold are not really designed for horse welfare, so if we are having to resort to keeping them in for long periods of time I think there needs to be a total rethink of winter stabling. The 'modern' stable yard is based on a model where horses were worked for at least 90 minutes a day, and there was a fair amount of activity throughout the day. When I worked as a groom they were groomed for 45minutes a day, hayed four times, and skipped out five times, plus they were hacked for exercise, for at least an hour and a half. The modern livery yard, they are lucky if they are seen twice a day, because most people work and just haven't the time, and perhaps ridden for less than an hour.
If it is not acceptable to keep a dog in a cage with no company or exercise 23 hours a day, why is it acceptable to do this to a horse, and not try to do better, they are herd animal and evolved to live outside? The best modern stabling I have seen was indoor, with end roof fans for ventilation, loose boxes with grills front and sides, and a back opening stable top door size window, the TB's in it seemed very calm and relaxed.
All my stabling has had either had half partition sides, or half grills for the last twenty five years, it's not expensive or difficult to do.

 

[honetpot]

It would be so much easier if horses weren't so intent on injuring themselves and each other....

They are horses, they are only doing their natural behaviour. In my experience the majority once they have settled who is boss, usually the grumpiest mare, and they have plenty to eat, the risks of injury are small.

 

[BBP]

Gosh, do peoples' horses routinely go galloping around in fields (on icy ruts or otherwise)? If my horses were charging about as a regular thing I would immediately cut the food and up the work. Other than the very odd little buck and a squeal, I've almost never had herds of galloping lunatics under my care. Perhaps I have unusually sedate horses...

Ignoring the icy ruts aspect as mine is on all weather turnout, yes mine plays every single day. Always has. Not necessarily a galloping lunatic, but he’s the most playful horse I’ve had. Even in a decent level of work. He does have RER which might contribute to his craziness in some situations. Not sure if other RER horses are the same? He gets no feed other than chaff for his boswellia and vitamin E, and can’t be worked anymore. But I do accept the risk of injury with how he behaves. None of the others are quite like him but they do all enjoy a good 4pm wrestle and run session. They are just much more sensible about it!

Stabling him increases the silliness when he does go out, so I’m thankful I now have the all weather and don’t have to decide between muddy rutted ground and a stable.

 

[bouncing_ball]

The best modern stabling I have seen was indoor, with end roof fans for ventilation, loose boxes with grills front and sides, and a back opening stable top door size window, the TB's in it seemed very calm and relaxed.

Some horse like this style of stables. Others hate them as not privacy from other horses when eating and feel threatened by neighbours.

 

[Goldenstar]

I do so agree with this. To me they are 2 different things entirely.

In one respect they are the same , horses need to move to physically function properly , that’s just how they work .
If you can’t provide enough movement through turnout you must top it up with exercise of some type .

 

[milliepops]

Some horse like this style of stables. Others hate them as not privacy from other horses when eating and feel threatened by neighbours.

yeah, i have had horses in all kinds of stables... some work better for some individuals than others. one of mine had very open stables and found the lack of privacy quite unsettling so I had to block off the sides to give her a space to call her own.

another really appreciates being able to see the neighbour next door, but only on one side and needs a side that has no-one looking in. (so a stable at the end of a row is ideal)

It does reduce your options if you have a horse with strong preferences. I think when I'm in a position to build my own I will put grilles in the front half of the side walls and solid at the back so they can always see or hide depending on their needs.

 

[Goldenstar]

I had a horse who hated grids in his stable when we moved him to a all walled box he was a different horse .

 

[paddy555]

yeah, i have had horses in all kinds of stables... some work better for some individuals than others. one of mine had very open stables and found the lack of privacy quite unsettling so I had to block off the sides to give her a space to call her own.

another really appreciates being able to see the neighbour next door, but only on one side and needs a side that has no-one looking in. (so a stable at the end of a row is ideal)

It does reduce your options if you have a horse with strong preferences. I think when I'm in a position to build my own I will put grilles in the front half of the side walls and solid at the back so they can always see or hide depending on their needs.

I agree some hate being threatened and some like company and to groom over a half wall. It is not too difficult however to deal with whatever they want even in a larger yard. All you need is doors or some solid partition that opens, is removable. You can easily create any sort of environment from totally protected, to half protected to horse's necks over the wall.

 

[milliepops]

I agree some hate being threatened and some like company and to groom over a half wall. It is not too difficult however to deal with whatever they want even in a larger yard. All you need is doors or some solid partition that opens, is removable. You can easily create any sort of environment from totally protected, to half protected to horse's necks over the wall.

if you own the buildings you can
if you are a livery client you have very little say at all! I was fortunate that first yard mentioned allowed me to hang up tarps to give my mare privacy. Every other yard i've been at since then, i have had to move in order to get a stable that suited my horse, no DIY permitted. I have discounted yards when searching because the stables weren't suitable. when you are dependent on livery it's really hard.

 

[paddy555]

In one respect they are the same , horses need to move to physically function properly , that’s just how they work .
If you can’t provide enough movement through turnout you must top it up with exercise of some type .

no problem with the exercise. The problem I have is that with 24/7 stabled horses their only movement is exercise. They have no chance to be horses and indulge in horse behaviour.

 

[paddy555]

if you own the buildings you can
if you are a livery client you have very little say at all! I was fortunate that first yard mentioned allowed me to hang up tarps to give my mare privacy. Every other yard i've been at since then, i have had to move in order to get a stable that suited my horse, no DIY permitted. I have discounted yards when searching because the stables weren't suitable. when you are dependent on livery it's really hard.

which is all part of the problem ie what is accepted as suitable modern horse keeping. It is perfectly easy to construct a stable with options, sides/no sides etc Equally easy to come up with easy to change ideas to accommodate differing horse requirements but bog standard seems to have become the accepted norm.
I do appreciate how hard this is if you are a livery and like you want something that works for the horse. There seem to be people who are happy with their horse living 23/7 in it's square box and only coming out to go on the walker. I am not sure if they think that because they don't know any different or if it is indoctrinated into them by YO's, horse media etc.

 

[paddy555]

If it is not acceptable to keep a dog in a cage with no company or exercise 23 hours a day, why is it acceptable to do this to a horse, and not try to do better, they are herd animal and evolved to live outside? .

when I was a child (a million years ago) we regularly went to Blackpool. I often went to the Tower after breakfast. You could get the lift from bottom to top. There you would find animals. They are in square concrete block cages with a grill opening along the front. They didn't get the means to express their natural behaviour and I guess the only way they came out of their cages would have been to go down the circus ring. ( I presume that is what they were for other than for visitors to look at) They must have spent 23 hours a day in those cages, possibly more. The natural behaviour of those animals was to run long distances. (they were lions,, tigers and the like) It was an horrendous way to keep animals. Nowadays I am sure it would not be allowed and they would be behaving more naturally in safari parks.

The poor old horse is still in his concrete block cage with the grill opening along the front, he still spends 23 hours there and still comes down to the circus ring for an hour a day. (we call it an indoor or a walker nowadays) The owner visits daily, sometimes twice. They pat the horse who is probably glad to talk to someone. The see his clean shavings, beautifully groomed and rugged horse and some people think that is OK. He is happy, he hasn't tried to kill them as they came through the door so he must be content.

Only difference between him and the lions is that the horse for the most part is so stoical he just has to accept his lot. If he doesn't and becomes a problem there is always HHO to post about his problems. The lions have moved on, why not the horse?

 

[PapaverFollis]

Well. Apart from the long history of domestication.

 

[Michen]

What about kennelled, working dogs paddy? Should they all come into the house?

 

[Cortez]

Well, that is a rather over-emotive scenario though isn't it? I'd imagine there are very few horses kept permanently in that exact way (unlike the billions of other domesticated animals kept in far worse conditions). Horses are not wild animals.

 

[honetpot]

Well. Apart from the long history of domestication.

They are domesticated through habituation from birth. If you leave horses in the herd situation, and they have little contact with humans, a bit like cats they go back to their basic evolutionary programming which is actually part of how they survived. They are herd, flight prey animals and when stressed if it is possible they run away. Having something on their backs, or even pulling something behind them goes against their evolutionary instincts, training overrides it, but like adrenaline when we are frightened, it's not something they can control, so when stressed they want to get that 'predator' off their back or run away from it.
When human are frightened or anxious we have loose bowels, bite our nails, twitch, can not sleep, find comfort in food. Lock down has taught humans who have more control over their environment that being in a box 24/7 is not good for them and their evolution included living in caves and building shelters. More extreme examples of stress of being confined are head banging, and self harm, and what are signs or stress in horses, repetitive behaviours, digestive problems and loose bowels. We are all animals and animals have basic evolutionary needs.
So the 'long history of domestication', in evolutionary terms is not that long. The horses of my youth mainly lived outside all the time, horses kept in stalls, or stables were work animals. A plough horse would work as long a day as the man was working, the carriage horse would cover many miles, and even the rag and bone pony who came down our street would be doing at least an eight hour day.
If you can not for what ever reason turn out a horse with company, it needs to have something to at least try to replace that stimulation. Like I have said, it's not difficult or expensive, but it means literally thinking outside the box.

 

[PapaverFollis]

They aren't actually wild animals though. They can be feral but they aren't wild. The shared history with humans does count for something. Comparison with caged tigers is hyperbolic.

I'm not saying that horses kept stabled 23/7 for 6 months of the year is all cool. It isn't. We need to work away from that scenario. But we must also be sympathetic to the fact that they are domestic creatures. Not wild ones.

 

[stormox]

I hate all this posts trying to make us feel guilty about the way.we care for our horses.
I am sure we all do the best we can with the circumstances, time and money we have.
How do we REALLY know if our horses are happy? When mines munching hay in a stable on a stormy evening she seems happy. If she finds a tasty but of grass outside she seems happy.
But equally she seems happy trotting out on a hack, or pricking her ears when she sees a jump.
Horses are adaptable animals, over the centuries humans have used and bred from horses that have been able to adapt to our way of life.
I dont know if a horse can even feel the emotion 'happy'.... content maybe.
Enjoy your horse and do the best you can for him - remember the old 'horses prayer'.

 

[Tiddlypom]

What about kennelled, working dogs paddy? Should they all come into the house?

Careful, now, I got into trouble because we have a ‘no dogs upstairs‘ in this house rule, so no dogs co-sleeping in human bedrooms.

*bad owner*

 

[PapaverFollis]

My big mare only has one wish in the whole world and that is to have hay or grass in front of her nose.... the gelding is more complex and likes free running and social interactions so he does miss turnout if he's not getting it. Fortunately for him he can have 24/7 herd life for about 45 to 50 weeks of the year in my current set up. Working towards the full 52. They've currently been iced "in" for nearly 3 weeks. I let them out if their stables into a mooch pen and a large bit of barn with patio during the day, but the gelding can't be in with the mares as he chases them on the rough ground. The ground is safe for gentle mare mooching but not for silly gelding antics. It's not ideal but I'd like to think they are resilient enough to cope for a few weeks. Plus it seems a fair trade off for not having to run away from lions their whole lives. Well it does to me. My lot would just get eaten straight away anyway.

 

[AdorableAlice]

I hate all this posts trying to make us feel guilty about the way.we care for our horses.
I am sure we all do the best we can with the circumstances, time and money we have.
How do we REALLY know if our horses are happy? When mines munching hay in a stable on a stormy evening she seems happy. If she finds a tasty but of grass outside she seems happy.
But equally she seems happy trotting out on a hack, or pricking her ears when she sees a jump.
Horses are adaptable animals, over the centuries humans have used and bred from horses that have been able to adapt to our way of life.
I dont know if a horse can even feel the emotion 'happy'.... content maybe.
Enjoy your horse and do the best you can for him - remember the old 'horses prayer'.

Probably the most realistic and sensible comment in most of this thread. For every horse presently stood in a stable, and I have 5 of them, that are short of work and turnout due to the prevailing weather conditions, there are many more stood out, starving, no water or shelter and uncared for. The fire brigade pulled a mare out of the mud just a couple of miles from my yard this week. Too weak to stand from malnourishment and almost frozen to death. Her end was quick and she is suffering no more.

Her level of suffering, unhappiness and fear was far in excess to my horses suffering. One of mine is thin soled and this ground cripples him. He is mighty cross at being locked in his small barn, fed warm and watered yes, but very cross and unhappy. i Prefer to see him having a painless strop than seeing him crippled, so locked up he remains until Tuesday by the look of things.

The weather, facilities and type of horse all governs how we can best care for our horses and as long as we do our best we should not be made to feel we are abusing our horses. That dead mare would have loved some warmth, food and four wall, poor creature.