Oliver Townend Fence 4 (Shallow Springs)

[sakura]

The USA isn't necessarily representative of the whole world though. Equestrianism will barely be on most Americans' radar. If you asked the same question in the UK, Australia, NZ, Germany you'd probably get a different answer. Some of America's most popular sports (overall, not just Olympic sports) - baseball and basketball for example - wouldn't get a look in in other countries.

It's still an interesting point for the sport though, I wouldn't say equestrianism is hugely popular in the UK, either. Only 39% of those polled on YouGov in the lead up to Tokyo were interested in watching eventing.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/sport/a...-2020-olympics-which-events-are-british-viewe

 

[Annagain]

It's still an interesting point for the sport though, I wouldn't say equestrianism is hugely popular in the UK, either. Only 39% of those polled on YouGov in the lead up to Tokyo were interested in watching eventing.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/sport/a...-2020-olympics-which-events-are-british-viewe

Which is more than Mountain Biking, BMX, Baseball, Handball, Waterpolo, Surfing, Volleyball, Shooting, Field Hockey, Golf and even Football. I think 39% is quite high for a minority sport that gets very little mainstream coverage.

It's interesting that Dressage was as high as 62% - I imagine that the CDJ effect was still in people's minds with her having won in London and Rio and the attention that generated. The events that were the most popular seem to the the ones where team GB had been most successful in recent years.

 

[sakura]

Which is more than Mountain Biking, BMX, Baseball, Handball, Waterpolo, Surfing, Volleyball, Shooting, Field Hockey, Golf and even Football. I think 39% is quite high for a minority sport that gets very little mainstream coverage.

But none of those involve animals and whilst opinion pieces like this (https://inews.co.uk/opinion/equestr...l-cruelty-horses-banned-from-olympics-1135216) exist in the mainstream, equestrianism simply has to do more if it's going to survive as an Olympic sport in the long term.

People may find other sports less interesting to watch, but those sports likely won't have the same pressure on them as equestrianism has.

edit - I know the opinion piece focuses primarily on pure dressage as a sport, but it is clearly relevant to eventing.

 

[Annagain]

But none of those involve animals and whilst opinion pieces like this (https://inews.co.uk/opinion/equestr...l-cruelty-horses-banned-from-olympics-1135216) exist in the mainstream, equestrianism simply has to do more if it's going to survive as an Olympic sport in the long term.

People may find other sports less interesting to watch, but those sports likely won't have the same pressure on them as equestrianism has.

edit - I know the opinion piece focuses primarily on pure dressage as a sport, but it is clearly relevant to eventing.

I understand what you mean but those concerns existed long before that survey (an example here - yes in Australia but it was the first mainstream news article I found, Olympic equestrian events under fire as research links riding equipment to stress response in horses - ABC News; and a petition here before Rio, Petition · International Olympic Committee: Ban all Olympic Horse disciplines · Change.org) and still 62% of people were interested in watching dressage (the sport in the article and one of them in the petition) and 39% the eventing.

I think we, as horse enthusiasts maybe overestimate the interest people take in our sports outside of the Olympics. Most people don't watch or read anything about them from one Games to the next. Lots wouldn't recognise cruelty as we would - rollkur for example - plenty of riders don't even recognise an overbent horse (you only have to see photos people proudly post on Facebook of horses with noses almost touching their chests) let alone those who aren't horsey. I'm not saying it's a good thing, just that these conversations aren't really happening outside of bubbles like ours so the perception of the general public is barely noticeable. If anything, the general public cares more about it being elitist as they understand that more easily.

I imagine 95% of non-riders would have seen SS at the quarry, thought it was amazing he didn't fall and never gave it a second thought. We only see the potential danger as we've looked after lame horses after we've seen them injure themselves doing nothing in the field.

 

[Annagain]

duplicate

 

[milliepops]

I imagine 95% of non-riders would have seen SS at the quarry, thought it was amazing he didn't fall and never gave it a second thought. We only see the potential danger as we've looked after lame horses after we've seen them injure themselves doing nothing in the field.

agree with this - anecdote but still... i've had my own horses for 30 years but my parents are still astounded at how fragile they are, i think without experiencing the accidents/injuries mine have picked up second hand they would have no clue how easily horses "went wrong".

 

[Michen]

Very interesting Badminton round up on Piggy tv (subscription required) Piggy saying how interesting it would be to see re London 52 and the time without the hold, with the breeding etc and how deep he was having to dig half way round.

 

[Michen]

She also calls him Townend And a wry smile with " didn't totally go over the jump"

 

[eahotson]

Probably not true as a statement anyway, otherwise there wouldn’t be so many overweight horses.
Cruelty can be subjective , to some even riding a horse is cruel

Oh please.At least the cruelty of over weight horses is unintentional.The fact that some people have overweight horses does not disguise or mitigate other forms of cruelty in the horse world.Do you know why, at the top end of dressage you no longer see that annoying tail swishing? Its because some kind vet has cut the nerves to the dock.

 

[teapot]

Very interesting Badminton round up on Piggy tv (subscription required) Piggy saying how interesting it would be to see re London 52 and the time without the hold, with the breeding etc and how deep he was having to dig half way round.

The hatcam footage with sound on with worth a listen too over the last few fences.

 

[wishfulthinking]

I was surprised that most of the discussion of this incident that I have seen has concerned his decision to carry on after the not fall rather than if it was a missed flag penalty/run out or not.

Surprised too that Piggy made such a comment in light of Capt. Mark Philip's reference in H&H to the clear video evidence available to the ground jury.

While obviously not having access to the footage theyGJ had the benefit of viewing, I too (having reacquainted myself with the FEI rules after seeing various odd interpretations of them in recent days) believe he was clear.

I remember a somewhat similat incident for Sarah Bullimore and RdR at Burghley in 2019 at the egg boxes on the dairy mound (video available on YT), albeit with no near fall or loss of momentum) that was ultimately given clear, and would think imposing penalties on SS and Oli on this occasion would have been harsh.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Laura said in her post ride interview that London 52 had had to 'dig so deep' over a 'relentless course' with 'question after question' and that he had 'questioned her sanity' during his round in the vicarage line about 'keeping jumping these ridiculous fences'. She was very honest about it, and was full of praise for her horse.

He has the jump, for sure. He was awesome in the dressage and in the SJ, but making the time XC while running within himself is another thing. IMHO it looked like he had to be asked to go half a gear higher XC than his preferred pace. That's why it looked a bit scrappy to me.

I'm just not comfortable any more watching horses being asked to do these things.

 

[palo1]

Very interesting Badminton round up on Piggy tv (subscription required) Piggy saying how interesting it would be to see re London 52 and the time without the hold, with the breeding etc and how deep he was having to dig half way round.

Yes and on her hatcam footage you can hear her encouraging him to keep going (well that is probably subjective but the classic clk clk sound we usually associate with the forward aids). Her win was a bit lucky but then the vast majority of top sporting wins have luck on their side. Laura Collett and London 52 are an amazing combination and Badders 22 was their day. Another year the horse or rider may not have the combination of fitness, confidence, up to the minute training and good old lady luck on their side.

 

[sakura]

If anything, the general public cares more about it being elitist as they understand that more easily.

I completely agree with that!

 

[Upthecreek]

I’m not sure how long Laura and London 52 were held but he most definitely benefited hugely from a breather with his rider off his back and being cooled off with buckets of water. He may have struggled if he had to keep galloping the full course without the break. Not to detract from the phenomenal achievement of winning, but the horse definitely did not look as comfortable during the XC as he did during the other phases.

 

[Fred66]

I was surprised that most of the discussion of this incident that I have seen has concerned his decision to carry on after the not fall rather than if it was a missed flag penalty/run out or not.

Surprised too that Piggy made such a comment in light of Capt. Mark Philip's reference in H&H to the clear video evidence available to the ground jury.

While obviously not having access to the footage theyGJ had the benefit of viewing, I too (having reacquainted myself with the FEI rules after seeing various odd interpretations of them in recent days) believe he was clear.

I remember a somewhat similat incident for Sarah Bullimore and RdR at Burghley in 2019 at the egg boxes on the dairy mound (video available on YT), albeit with no near fall or loss of momentum) that was ultimately given clear, and would think imposing penalties on SS and Oli on this occasion would have been harsh.

He didn’t miss the flag (head and shoulders were the correct side) however it Is questionable as to whether his hind legs were sufficiently high to clear the obstacle

 

[TheMule]

He didn’t miss the flag (head and shoulders were the correct side) however it Is questionable as to whether his hind legs were sufficiently high to clear the obstacle

Thats not the rule though- it used to be head and shoulders through the flag but it changed in 2019 so that the body of the horse has to clear the dimensions of the fence. The legs can be outside the line of the fence.

 

[Fred66]

Oh please.At least the cruelty of over weight horses is unintentional.The fact that some people have overweight horses does not disguise or mitigate other forms of cruelty in the horse world.Do you know why, at the top end of dressage you no longer see that annoying tail swishing? Its because some kind vet has cut the nerves to the dock.

Obviously deliberate cruelty is inexcusable however ignorance is no excuse

5* horses aren’t just dragged from a field they go through considerable training over a number of years and have to meet the eligibility requirements regarding performance at lower levels

I don’t have a problem with 5* however I do think that the last 1/4 of the course should not have such technical questions in it . Skinny’s towards the end would test whether the horse is still listening but doubles and bounces should be no go for tired horses

 

[teapot]

I don’t have a problem with 5* however I do think that the last 1/4 of the course should not have such technical questions in it . Skinny’s towards the end would test whether the horse is still listening but doubles and bounces should be no go for tired horses

That bounce wasn’t at the end of the course though?

Changing the final quarter/three minutes of a course kinda defeats the idea of having a true 5* test though. Horses in theory should be fit enough for a 12 minute course and to be able to jump what’s in front of them.

Skinny fences require as much riding as technical fences/combinations, and in the latter parts of a course, you’re just as likely to leave a leg/have issues.

I think it’s less about course design and far more about cross country riding, undulating ground, and fitness. Things that constantly get brought up by the pros who say courses at the lower levels are not preparing people properly!

 

[eggs]

Oh please.At least the cruelty of over weight horses is unintentional.The fact that some people have overweight horses does not disguise or mitigate other forms of cruelty in the horse world.Do you know why, at the top end of dressage you no longer see that annoying tail swishing? Its because some kind vet has cut the nerves to the dock.

Unintentional or not, ignorance is no excuse for having an overweight horse/pony with the potential consequence of laminitis which is extremely painful and can result in death.

Have to say I have not heard of vet's cutting nerves to the dock - please would you point me to where this information is.

 

[stormox]

I love eventing. I admire the bravery of the horses and riders. I am in awe of their ability to kick on and ride between the flags with their knitting in loops. I love seeing horses fly over huge rider-frighteners.
I like it better than pure SJ where the fences are all airy-fairy now and look like they would blow down in the slightest breeze.
Are we really getting so "snowflakey" these days that we worry about things that didn't happen?
This is a pointless thread really - both Oliver's and Laura's horses were perfectly fine yet theres people here saying they should have pulled up!
Brave riding, brave horses and "if it looks trappy kick on " mentality won the day.

 

[sakura]

It won’t do the sport a lot of good to call discussion “pointless” and anyone who raises a concern too “snowflakey”. Unless, of course, you’re happy to keep it an elite and unrelatable sport. It doesn’t really matter how much you think the general public have influence or even care, it does if it’s to continue on as an Olympic sport.

 

[stormox]

It won’t do the sport a lot of good to call discussion “pointless” and anyone who raises a concern too “snowflakey”. Unless, of course, you’re happy to keep it an elite and unrelatable sport. It doesn’t really matter how much you think the general public have influence or even care, it does if it’s to continue on as an Olympic sport.

I meant it was "pointless" as both those horses were fine, there was no reason to pull them up, and if a steward had stopped them there would have been a false result.

Good riding, stickability and bravery should always be rewarded.

 

[Annagain]

That bounce wasn’t at the end of the course though?

Changing the final quarter/three minutes of a course kinda defeats the idea of having a true 5* test though. Horses in theory should be fit enough for a 12 minute course and to be able to jump what’s in front of them.

Skinny fences require as much riding as technical fences/combinations, and in the latter parts of a course, you’re just as likely to leave a leg/have issues.

I think it’s less about course design and far more about cross country riding, undulating ground, and fitness. Things that constantly get brought up by the pros who say courses at the lower levels are not preparing people properly!

I agree. There were actually very few issues at the last 4 fences. There was obviously the very tired horse at the last fence and although Emily King had a fall at the last combination, I don't think that was tiredness, he took a stride out and left a leg as a result if I remember correctly. She'd ridden the whole round trying to prevent that as he's clearly a very big moving, keen horse. She did very well to contain him at the downhill ditch fence and the bounce. I wonder if she either got a little complacent or tired, or was chasing the time so didn't take a hold in the same way and that's what caused her fall. It was a fairly innocuous (as 5* events go - you'd still not catch me anywhere near it and I have nothing but respect for anyone brave enough to take it on!) fence with a good few strides between the two elements so almost a single fence.

You still have to have enough of a challenge in the final few fences that fitness is tested. I thought the course did that well this year, the very upright skinny three from home really meant they had to put the brakes on then get going again to another pretty upright fence (that has been a double in the past) then a gallop to the arena and the last fence on the turn. If you make it too easy (and lets face it at this level skinnies are nothing, they're so used to jumping them) it becomes a mad gallop to the line and that's pretty dangerous on a tired horse too.

 

[Supertrooper]

She also calls him Townend And a wry smile with " didn't totally go over the jump"

Was just about to post this regarding jump

 

[Auslander]

Is it really so ‘obscene’ to wonder how a horse managed to trot-up sound after such an awful fall? I'm not "Oli-bashing" - my opinion would stand regardless of the rider. Rather, I’m very surprised that there isn’t a drug test between the XC and SJ. There’s certainly incentive to slip some bute in a horse’s feed if you think you’ve got a chance at winning. Let’s not pretend that all professional riders prioritise the horse’s welfare above the competition.
.

No-one is stupid enough to slip a horse anything at an event like this. There is a lot of random drug testing that goes on, and everyone knows they can be pulled at any time. Riders who are in contention are probably even more likely to be under scrutiny.
I worked for an international rider back in the mists of time - and we were absolutely on it re banned substances, even back then. I don't believe that eventing is a sport where horses are routinely slipped something - and I believe that of all the horse sports, it is probably the one where horse welfare is most certainly a proirity.

 

[eahotson]

Unintentional or not, ignorance is no excuse for having an overweight horse/pony with the potential consequence of laminitis which is extremely painful and can result in death.

Have to say I have not heard of vet's cutting nerves to the dock - please would you point me to where this information is.

Certainly.Read the book (well researched) I can't watch anymore by Julie Taylor.Enjoy know some novice riders\owners are much easier to pick on than someone like Oliver Townend.

 

[ponynutz]

Aware it was at the end of the course but I also was not a fan of the bounce jump

 

[Orangehorse]

Is it really so ‘obscene’ to wonder how a horse managed to trot-up sound after such an awful fall? I'm not "Oli-bashing" - my opinion would stand regardless of the rider. Rather, I’m very surprised that there isn’t a drug test between the XC and SJ. There’s certainly incentive to slip some bute in a horse’s feed if you think you’ve got a chance at winning. Let’s not pretend that all professional riders prioritise the horse’s welfare above the competition.
.

You must be too young to remember the horrific fall-out when a British horse failed a drug test, and it turned out to be from a herbal supplement, if I remember correctly. It was tragic, cost the rider and the team vet careers (with the British team) and indirectly led to tragedy. No British rider or anyone connected with the sport is likely to forget that incident.

It was bad enough when the German rider was eliminated fairly recently. All the horses had been tested and clear before they went to the competition.

 

[I'm Dun]

Certainly.Read the book (well researched) I can't watch anymore by Julie Taylor.Enjoy know some novice riders\owners are much easier to pick on than someone like Oliver Townend.

I'm not sure that I would consider that a reliable and unbiased source