Pandering to overweight riders

[expanding_horizon]

In an attempt to stop them prioritising themselves over the horse? It's easier to carry on doing something that you know you shouldn't be if people are going to turn a blind eye

It’s complicated though I’ve seen vets and physios and trainers when asked by a rider with one horse if their weight is okay, say yes, when horse is clearly compromised. They don’t want to face the devastation they’ll cause by being honest. Then rider feels it is okay as their professional support team say it is okay.

 

[DabDab]

It would be more helpful if you could elaborate. As I have repeatedly said I have numbers of students who have been told they were too heavy for their horses (not all were overweight BTW, just too big for their itty bitty little mounts - men, in those instances), who have lost weight or acquired more suitable ones. Is that polarising?

It was a tongue in cheek response...but see how annoying it is when someone doesn't discuss the details of something.

Polarising in this instance I mean (though it is a fairly standard definition) - jumping on anyone who tries to discuss in a more rounded way, assuming that they must therefore be for the other side, refusing to actually discuss an issue because there is only right and wrong etc etc

 

[DabDab]

Generally sitting on a horse is bad for it, unless you are able to encourage horse to move in a way that building weight carrying muscle. But the issue is compounded if a rider is too heavy for a horse.

Exactly, so there is an angle to come at it from

 

[hock]

Let’s be honest horses aren’t designed to carry any of us.

It’s too hot to argue with you lot I’m off for an ice cream and share it with my ponies who think the sun shines out of my fat arse!

Have a good weekend everyone! Even the skinnies

 

[Cortez]

But this approach isn’t working is it? So crack on with it, but don’t expect to suddenly change their ways. If you really want to help and hopefully you do you need to find a way that makes people change their minds.

Isn't it? Or perhaps people are too concerned about being "nice" and not "judgy" (I mean some people are literally judges and get paid to give a considered opinion) and are either telling them they are fine, or not saying anything at all.

 

[ycbm]

Why say anything at all then? If they all already know that they are too heavy?

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

If one person reads this thread who is too heavy for their horse and decides to stop riding until they are lighter or have got a bigger horse, then good will have been done.

If one person who is too heavy is spoken to and stops riding because someone plucked up the courage to do that from reading the thread, then good will have been done.

You appear to be arguing that there is no point anyone writing about others who are doing harm if those others already know they are doing harm. We don't follow that with other animal abuse or with criminals, so I don't understand why you are suggesting it for this discussion.
.

 

[DabDab]

I'm also signing off because sun, horses, circular discussion etc.
But the last, completely unrelated but food for thought point from me is that by the 15% rule to include tack and dressed rider I reckon a good 80% of the western fraternity would be in the too heavy category. Plus a good number of horsemen who are revered on this forum would be too much for some of the horses I've seen videos of them on.

 

[cobgoblin]

I honestly don't think a lot of riders don't realise they are too heavy for their horse. I'm also pretty sure that a large number of the British public would be stretched to work out 15% or 20% of their horses weight, or have even heard of that guideline.

 

[DabDab]

If one person reads this thread who is too heavy for their horse and decides to stop riding until they are lighter or have got a bigger horse, then good will have been done.

If one person who is too heavy is spoken to and stops riding because someone plucked up the courage to do that from reading the thread, then good will have been done.

You appear to be arguing that there is no point anyone writing about others who are doing harm if those others already know they are doing harm. We don't follow that with other animal abuse or with criminals, so I don't understand why you are suggesting it for this discussion.
.

Not really. I'm saying let's have a better/continued discussion rather than just shutting it down with blanket statements that mean nothing. What I am saying really isn't radical, polarised discussion is a lot less effective for moving the consensus needle than education and broad evidence based discussion.

 

[Tarragon]

To get back to point, the issue is not overweight people per sae, it is anyone who is too big for their mount. You can be a perfectly fit and healthy person, but still too large for the horse/pony you are riding.
I reckon everyone who has posted on this thread can all spot horse and rider combinations out and about that are ill matched and mutter under our breaths "they shouldn't be riding that horse/pony". presumably because we are "educated" equestrians who care about the horse's welfare.
The issue is educating the riders who cannot see that there is a problem.
I think it should start at the top and make sure that all the role models in all disciplines are made to set a good standard, perhaps starting with the showing scene, and I want to see obese horses, and riders too heavy for the horse they are riding, to not be allowed to compete.
Then hopefully, people will start to question themselves and make better informed decisions and in turn start to spread the word.
As a pony-riding adult, this topic is of huge significance to me and I am so very conscious of everything I do in relation to my pony's welfare. I do ride at that 15% level, so I have no wriggle room!
A bit like free-range eggs - at the start they were only for the well-off and for those with high well-fare principles, but over a couple of decades they are now the norm. The changes in public conception to weight and health, in people and horses, is, I think, changing for the better, but it will be many years before we start to see a significant improvement.
As long as we can have these discussions, and try to improve things for all the horses we meet in our own way, I am hoping we will get there.
Probably a bit "rose-tinted" for some of you, but I am very much an optimist!

 

[KittenInTheTree]

I crunched the numbers based on my weight when dressed for riding and that of my heaviest saddle combined. It puts me at 16% for my roan and 19% for my youngster. The saddle in question fits my roan like a glove but I also have a lighter one for him that puts me at 15%, so that's all to the good. The youngster won't be backed until she's six. I'm halfway hoping that the roan's tack will fit her too, as they're both a similar shape. If so, then the lighter saddle would put me at 18% for her. I'm not entirely happy with that, so I'm aiming to lose some weight between now and backing her.

Now I just need to find the energy and time enough in the day to actually do any riding at all...!

 

[ycbm]

Not really. I'm saying let's have a better/continued discussion rather than just shutting it down with blanket statements that mean nothing. What I am saying really isn't radical, polarised discussion is a lot less effective for moving the consensus needle than education and broad evidence based discussion.

In the context of a thread called "Pandering to overweight riders" we were discussing what a cut off % weight should be and how it could be implemented.

A minority of people wanted to expand that discussion into how a horse can be made more able to carry a rider, a different subject.

If enough people had wanted to discuss that, then in the nature of forums that's exactly where the thread would have gone.

Maybe you just joined in too late to push it in the direction you would have liked to see it go.

I would be interested to hear your views on how a nuanced approach without a weight % will stop riders who are too heavy from riding their horses.
.

 

[ihatework]

So how do you propose to address the problem then? I still teach a bit, and I will point out the obvious if it needs to be pointed out.

*I don't have a large crack habit, but a number of people that I teach have gone on to lose sufficient weight to be able to ride their horses properly.

I keep thinking I should probably start medicating on crack to help with the flab
Or I could just eat less I suppose

 

[toppedoff]

On Facebook but in a group I follow today..

"Hi there, just wondering if there are any heavier riders, around 19 stone mark. My partner is looking to get back into riding which brought us to Clydesdales. Are there any other breeds that could carry this weight or do you think Clydesdales are suitable. Thanks"

One of the comments said "Clydesdales are more built for pulling than carrying, I think a cob can carry more."

 

[GrassChop]

On Facebook but in a group I follow today..

"Hi there, just wondering if there are any heavier riders, around 19 stone mark. My partner is looking to get back into riding which brought us to Clydesdales. Are there any other breeds that could carry this weight or do you think Clydesdales are suitable. Thanks"

One of the comments said "Clydesdales are more built for pulling than carrying, I think a cob can carry more."

And this is what we are up against ladies and gentleman...

 

[toppedoff]

And this is what we are up against ladies and gentleman...

It's absolutely mad!

 

[paddy555]

certain bits are allowed, types of spur, colour of jods, some action are not allowed, beating the horse into submission, working it in rollkur?, or holding it in a position with its head and neck until it must surely need the relief to let the blood flow, blue tongues,etc. BLOOD IN MOUTH BLOOD ON SIDES

all these things have been seen at top level, they still happen, then are we too heavy,? well yes i think we can be, definately the one i saw the other week, well that was horrific!!!!!!what is more to point is working towards what we think is humane for the horse overall, and weight is just one aspect,

weight is only one aspect. Obviously it would be great if people were within suitable limits but I would probably prefer to see a slightly overweight rider riding well in all other aspects than someone of a good weight doing what you mention above.

 

[sbloom]

But a 16.2 drum horse type COULD carry more than a Clydie...it's just that 19 stone is almost certainly too much.

It's all very well saying "if one person decides not to ride" when the other side of the coin is that feeling fat shamed, even if that is not the intention, will make a lot of people, who struggle with their relationship with food, feel worse about themselves, and then they eat more in so many cases. Are they likely to then stop riding their horses because they gained a few more lbs? Some might, but many won't.

I DO think there's an issue here and as I said, I'd probably agree with a competition limit, and general recommendation, of 20% but it's not enforceable for most of the transgressors, who won't be competing. If an approach in reality actually causes more harm to riders' mental and physical health than it causes benefit to horses then we all lose. Instead of, effectively, shouting, why don't we try and work out why people are too heavy for their horses and seek to help them, instead of simply bandying figures around?

HELP them with their relationship with food AND their relationship with their horse, if the horse can be kept healthy then can find other ways to be with their horse, but our horsey culture doesn't encourage that, or educate towards it. I often recommend people towards relationship coaches, to help them bond with their horse, plus groundwork, learning to longline etc. Instead we talk punitative measures as the first step, and we use very blunt language that evidence shows can be very problematic.

Believe whatever you like but much of this conversation will be more harmful than helpful, overall. Until we acknowledge that reality we're banging our heads against a brick wall.

 

[expanding_horizon]

It's all very well saying "if one person decides not to ride" when the other side of the coin is that feeling fat shamed, even if that is not the intention, will make a lot of people, who struggle with their relationship with food, feel worse about themselves, and then they eat more in so many cases. Are they likely to then stop riding their horses because they gained a few more lbs? Some might, but many won't.

I DO think there's an issue here and as I said, I'd probably agree with a competition limit, and general recommendation, of 20% but it's not enforceable for most of the transgressors, who won't be competing. If an approach in reality actually causes more harm to riders' mental and physical health than it causes benefit to horses then we all lose. Instead of, effectively, shouting, why don't we try and work out why people are too heavy for their horses and seek to help them, instead of simply bandying figures around?

HELP them with their relationship with food AND their relationship with their horse, if the horse can be kept healthy then can find other ways to be with their horse, but our horsey culture doesn't encourage that, or educate towards it. I often recommend people towards relationship coaches, to help them bond with their horse, plus groundwork, learning to longline etc. Instead we talk punitative measures as the first step, and we use very blunt language that evidence shows can be very problematic.

Believe whatever you like but much of this conversation will be more harmful than helpful, overall. Until we acknowledge that reality we're banging our heads against a brick wall.

As an owner who is not skinny, if one of my trusted equine team of professionals told me I was too heavy for my horse, I would 100% do something about it. I'd be galvanised into doing something constructive. Whether that be losing weight, working horse from the ground or rethinking suitability of that horse.

I appreciate not everyone is the same, but I dont think you can generalise that the majority of people if told kindly by an professional they are employing, that they are a bit too heavy for that horse and are compromising the horse, and perhaps should only ride for very short periods at a time, they would not take action.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Believe whatever you like but much of this conversation will be more harmful than helpful, overall. Until we acknowledge that reality we're banging our heads against a brick wall.

That is just your opinion. People are different.

I'd much rather, and it would be much more effective for me, if someone came out and told me directly (but not unkindly) if I was too heavy for a horse. I don't do fannying around, I simply don't get that game, and I'm not alone in that.

 

[sbloom]

I'm talking more about these discussions, though clearly it can go very wrong in the flesh. Anyone who can take it, ask your professional outright, why put it on them to bring it up?

@Tiddlypom I'm talking about averages, people are indeed different and I'm 100% accounting for that hence saying "overall". Increasingly the experts are saying that being overweight is closely related to mental health, stress etc, so there will be many people who will struggle with these conversations and likely fewer who will not.

 

[DabDab]

In the context of a thread called "Pandering to overweight riders" we were discussing what a cut off % weight should be and how it could be implemented.

A minority of people wanted to expand that discussion into how a horse can be made more able to carry a rider, a different subject.

If enough people had wanted to discuss that, then in the nature of forums that's exactly where the thread would have gone.

Maybe you just joined in too late to push it in the direction you would have liked to see it go.

I would be interested to hear your views on how a nuanced approach without a weight % will stop riders who are too heavy from riding their horses.
.

What for purposes of regulating competition? Well personally I think a max rider weight chart that has horse type (clearly defined in the background by bone rib cage or whatever) along the top and horse height down the side would be an easier approach with less pitfalls, and potentially could gently steer naturally heavier riders towards a more suitable type of horse in the first place.

But that's not really what I mean by 'nuanced discussion' (my chart is not much more nuanced than a % rule). What I mean is people actually discussing what mechanics are at play when you put a rider on a horse's back, a sort of equation, and therefore what part the weight of the rider plays in that equation and how an extra 5, 10, 20kg changes the overall effect on the horses body (I'm not talking strict maths, more general principles). I personally believe that making that kind of science-based discussion and knowledge more mainstream would cause more people to proactively consider their weight in relation to their horse and a lot of the other factors that go into the equation.

And tbh, I genuinely believe that the reason we don't have this kind of discussion going on atm is because the understanding of mechanics in the general population is so low that people neither understand the principles at play nor even consider them. Common sense tells people that more weight = bad, that is the depth of most people's knowledge or level of enquiry on the subject goes.

 

[TPO]

It's not a lack of knowledge. It's prioritising their want to ride above all other factors.

I don't believe for one minute that people aren't aware, however generally, of their weight and whether it's fair to expect a horse to carry it.

 

[sbloom]

I don't know the solution, but I'm with @DabDab plus we KNOW that feelings trump facts (knowledge) so often - witness Brexit and all sorts of other issues. I always keep trying to focus on what the reality is in front of us, not how I am, not how most people I know am, but what science says about human behaviour and experience, and then try to look at grown up discussions and how to effect change. Only talking about how things SHOULD be isn't going to help us make progress, we need to start from where we are.

 

[humblepie]

Just done the maths and at 20% my 16.2 TB could carry 16.5 stone? Not sure he’d be impressed with that.

 

[ycbm]

I agree that education about the issues around horses being asked to carry us at all needs further work. SB will have realised by now that I'm as hot on strengthening the shoulder cradle and recognising a weak top line as she is.

But my experience is that in all sorts of walks of life most people like a hard and fast rule. I believe it would be a major step forward in horse welfare of there was a widely known and widely repeated rule -

"No horse of any shape, age, fitness or training should be asked to carry more than xx% of their own 3/5 body score weight. "

For starters, I'd settle for that xx being 20 but I believe that's too high for sitting on the flat (or worse, dipping) bridge of a horse's spine.
.

 

[blitznbobs]

There is a lot of evidence in human medicine that carrying weights and heavy weights at that is good for you. Good for bone density , good for muscle building , good for cardiovascular fitness. Whilst it also does increase wear on tear on some joints, it protects other joints. How many of our children slog to school with more than 20%of their body weight in a rucksack on their back and then proceed to carey it round all day.(my son does i weighed it and him) When i suggested to my son that that was a pretty daft thing to do he shrugged and said he had got in to trouble so often for not having stuff he carried everything round with him… humans are even less designed to carry heavy things on their back than horses (all force goes through every single vertibrae in turn) but they seem to survive and not even moan.

I am not saying that it is great for a big fat rider to ride a little tiny horse but we need a lot more evidence before sweeping statements are made… it is like the argument of not riding til the horse is six… because they are still growing - i had a long chat to my vet a couple of weeks ago because i was thinking of backing my 17.2 3 year old theevidence is now coming out that leaving them til they are 6 gices no chance for their tendons to truly toughen up and leads to weakness in and of itself. The true answer is there is not enough research and the research done is done by 1) people with a serious agenda and 2) in small local numbers.

And everything else is just opinion… sometimes what is ‘obvious’ is correct and sometimes it is completely wrong.

 

[southerncomfort]

Just done the maths and at 20% my 16.2 TB could carry 16.5 stone? Not sure he’d be impressed with that.

I saw a wanted ad today. Lady was looking for a 14.2 + to carry 16st.

 

[ycbm]

There is a lot of evidence in human medicine that carrying weights and heavy weights at that is good for you. Good for bone density , good for muscle building , good for cardiovascular fitness. Whilst it also does increase wear on tear on some joints, it protects other joints. How many of our children slog to school with more than 20%of their body weight in a rucksack on their back and then proceed to carey it round all day.(my son does i weighed it and him) When i suggested to my son that that was a pretty daft thing to do he shrugged and said he had got in to trouble so often for not having stuff he carried everything round with him… humans are even less designed to carry heavy things on their back than horses (all force goes through every single vertibrae in turn) but they seem to survive and not even moan.

I am not saying that it is great for a big fat rider to ride a little tiny horse but we need a lot more evidence before sweeping statements are made… it is like the argument of not riding til the horse is six… because they are still growing - i had a long chat to my vet a couple of weeks ago because i was thinking of backing my 17.2 3 year old theevidence is now coming out that leaving them til they are 6 gices no chance for their tendons to truly toughen up and leads to weakness in and of itself. The true answer is there is not enough research and the research done is done by 1) people with a serious agenda and 2) in small local numbers.

And everything else is just opinion… sometimes what is ‘obvious’ is correct and sometimes it is completely wrong.

I hear what you're saying and I know you are medically qualified and I'm not, but there is also, isn't there, a very strong relationship between the age of a person who needs a hip or knee replacement and the amount of excess body weight the person is carrying?

 

[skinnydipper]

Weight bearing exercise to optimise bone density is not the same as lugging excess body weight around.