Pandering to overweight riders

[paddy555]

My riding club got the weigh bridge in at camp so everyone could weigh their horses and got a condition score. Otherwise I would have no idea. Could your yard arrange to get the vet out with theirs and everyone chip in?

I think I was the only one who got on with my riding stuff and tack to see what my total weight was.

I was just using my set up as an example. It is my own yard, just my horses. I'm not really bothered what they weigh, I over estimate for worming, as I don't compete.

however I can't see many in my position paying to have a weighbridge delivered unless they could justify the cost due to serious competing.

But you probably could make an approximation of healthy horse weight based on height and type (low/mw/hw) and then assign a maximum permitted weight of rider in kg, minus kit. 15% for example.

Do-able yes

Open to challenge, whines, life’s not fair, but but but - no doubt

Enforceable under national rules - I suspect not

unenforceable. The only definite is the rider's and saddle weight. Even weighed the horse could be any weight because you could then judge it to be either fat or thin. If you go by the exact weight it will simply encourage larger riders on overweight horses. If you go by eye that horse is say 50 kg overweight then everyone has a different eye.

I could see the judge in showing explaining lovely horse but put down the line due to overweight of horse or rider but surely the rider would just carry on and find a class under a different judge. Looking at showing pics in horse & hound there are some very seriously overweight horses winning so clearly judges not picking up on this
.

 

[ihatework]

I've seen photos of a current BD competitor on a lightweight wb/tb type who is so much too big for her horse that her saddle is almost completely invisible. There were complaints made to BD but apparently nothing has been been done

This sort of thing is so difficult for an organisation.

Whilst I’d love for a judge to just be able to say ‘your horse is struggling you are too big for it therefore you are eliminated’ - they really can’t.

Personally I’d support a rulebook change to include a welfare clause whereby a judge/official in the event that a rider appears excessively heavy and causing a welfare issue to refer it onto independent adjudication. If referred then rider and horse weighed and if in excess of 20% minus kit then welfare objection stands (for example)

 

[Goldenstar]

Please be aware that my tongue is firmly rooting around in my buccal fat here, but how about we recalibrate towards these crazy ideas: being overweight is not a "positive" thing; mentioning it is not taboo; personal responsibility is a thing; thinking about the horse's welfare is a primary focus.

How can we recalibrate these crazy ideas ? We are being schooled to believe we must believe that people can change sex and it’s unacceptable to say you don’t believe that, besides that pretending it’s healthy to be obese seems almost sensible.
I have an observation from care homes the youngest people are fat and the oldest are slim there’s a lesson there .

The thing we have to explore do we care enough stand up .
I will borrow a quote, facts don’t care about feelings but we need to think of how best you deal with the issue of an horse working carrying a too heavy burden in a way that is most likely to have a positive outcome .
I don’t know the answer BTW.

 

[expanding_horizon]

We had access to a weighbridge at Trec Nationals this year.

My horse was 628kg, and condition scored 5.5/9
5 is ideal so he is slightly over with slight fat pads over his shoulders and quarters. Said his ideal weight is 620kg.
Though he’s pretty close to perfect weight

Also weighed myself, hat, boots, trec kit, body protector etc at 82kg.

With saddle, girth, stirrups etc 93.5kg

So our ridden total carried weight is 15.08% of his ideal body weight.

I’m about 12% of his body weight without hat, boots, clothes, body protector.

Saddles weigh a lot!

 

[paddy555]

but how about we recalibrate towards these crazy ideas: being overweight is not a "positive" thing; mentioning it is not taboo; personal responsibility is a thing; thinking about the horse's welfare is a primary focus.

if one was to start a thread on here along the lines of overweight (human) and personal responsibility there would be screams of objections. It is not the person's fault, (and in some cases it isn't as there are medical or drug taking problems) the effects such comments as "personal responsibility" would have on their mental health. If you were to say that it is selfish as it impacts on the NHS with obesity related problems that would be dismissed and if you were to look at the real problem for the person ie the strain on their joints, type 2, heart problems etc etc then no one seems to care IRL.
If people don't care about what additional weight is doing to their own health why would they extend that to their horse. (tongue also probably in cheek before the rants appear)

serious riders (competing or not) will seriously consider 15 or 20% and the impact it could be having and how they could improve the situation. The others will ask their friend's, be told it is fine and reach for another ginger biscuit.

 

[DabDab]

Ref sbloom's point about structure, posture, conditioning, weight distribution for the 'grey' areas...2 x 15kg sacks of feed is approximately 48% of my weight. I can carry one on each shoulder for some distance, I could probably walk around steadily for 10-15mins loaded up like that. If I was to carry those two stacks of feed one on top of another in my arms in front of me then i would struggle to take one step. And if I changed those sacks of feed for rectangular bales of something like hay or shavings and carry them on my shoulders then I can practically skip about.

Why? Because on my shoulders they are positioned over my centre of gravity on a structural part of my anatomy, and because of lowered moments (that's mechanics moments) in play. Sometimes I read this type of thread on here and it's like most people stopped listening in school after someone explained gravity to them, like that is the only force that exists in our world.

So yes, weight is weight, but it interacts with a bunch load of other stuff on the way to the final effect, particularly where you've got multiple dynamic systems interacting with each other.

And I actually see no reason why a more sensible and reality/science-based general conversation around those different factors can't be had while also saying that there a point at which overloading is just overloading whichever way you slice it and therefore an upper rider weight limit applies (I don't necessarily agree that a % of horse weight is the right way to do that though).

 

[Peglo]

@paddy555 I thought you kept yours at home right enough but the heat is getting to me today. mine are also at home and if wasn’t for the riding club I wouldn’t know what my horse weighed. But it would be an option for bigger yards possibly.

People are certainly in denial about horses weight. There was a highland pony at our local show that was so fat it looked like a blob. The judge told her the horse was overweight and she argued that he’d been weighed and was fine. This horse was not fine and she was told by a judge that he wasn’t but she won’t listen. I do feel for professionals having to deal with that.

 

[sbloom]

If we're getting into individuals and their struggles with weight I will, as always, come down on the side of mental health and that so much WILL come across as fat bashing, no matter how much you get annoyed by that or think it's outrageous. We are not in the world we were in before the epidemic of obesity started. Rangan Chattergee's podcast was fascinating this week, I only heard it because I had Spotify on autoplay and glad I did. Oh and give @rebelfit a follow on FB (and probably insta).

#381 Why Your Brain Wants You To Be Anxious, Lazy & Fat (And What You Can Do About It) with Dr Anders Hansen

Podcast Episode · Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee · 05/09/2023 · 1h 40m

podcasts.apple.com

 

[Flame_]

As an aside, I don't think anyone complains about being compulsorily weighed to go bungee jumping (limit 118kg for anyone interested) Horses are such an emotive subject

If someone is stopped from bungee jumping at a bungee jumping venue, that's probably the end of their bungee jumping dreams and they will do something else like go fishing but riding horses is more of a way of life than that, especially when said horses are our own property. It's not ok to go telling people they can't drive their cars or decorate their houses. I don't think we can stop people riding their horses. It has to be their decision because if they get eliminated from a show, they'll just go and do a fun ride, etc. This is an education and attitude issue and not the job or problem of vets or show staff who are often volunteers.

IIRC, though it feels like yonks ago I read it, the OP was talking about social media input around heavy riders and this might actually be the best hope there is about altering perspectives on what size horses people should and shouldn't be riding. Some of the American photos of large riders on small horses are positively disturbing. Maybe it ought to be pointed out more often to people when they look far too big for their horse?

 

[Goldenstar]

I agree with above they are way more relaxed about what horses can carry in the US it’s eye popping.

 

[ihatework]

I was just using my set up as an example. It is my own yard, just my horses. I'm not really bothered what they weigh, I over estimate for worming, as I don't compete.

however I can't see many in my position paying to have a weighbridge delivered unless they could justify the cost due to serious competing.

unenforceable. The only definite is the rider's and saddle weight. Even weighed the horse could be any weight because you could then judge it to be either fat or thin. If you go by the exact weight it will simply encourage larger riders on overweight horses. If you go by eye that horse is say 50 kg overweight then everyone has a different eye.

I could see the judge in showing explaining lovely horse but put down the line due to overweight of horse or rider but surely the rider would just carry on and find a class under a different judge. Looking at showing pics in horse & hound there are some very seriously overweight horses winning so clearly judges not picking up on this
.

If we're getting into individuals and their struggles with weight I will, as always, come down on the side of mental health and that so much WILL come across as fat bashing, no matter how much you get annoyed by that or think it's outrageous. We are not in the world we were in before the epidemic of obesity started. Rangan Chattergee's podcast was fascinating this week, I only heard it because I had Spotify on autoplay and glad I did. Oh and give @rebelfit a follow on FB (and probably insta).

#381 Why Your Brain Wants You To Be Anxious, Lazy & Fat (And What You Can Do About It) with Dr Anders Hansen

Podcast Episode · Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee · 05/09/2023 · 1h 40m

podcasts.apple.com

I agree with you that the obesity problem has a large amount of a variety of MH issues behind it.

I also agree it’s extremely sensitive topic and those that get triggered by it will call it fat bashing.

But does that mean they should get a free pass (I appreciate you might not be saying that)! No they shouldn’t.

All sorts of crimes are heavily linked to MH issues yet criminals don’t get excused. All sorts of people with MH issues can stay within the law and/or acknowledge their issues leading to obesity means they shouldn’t be getting on a horse.

It’s tough.

But until it gets called out it won’t change

 

[Goldenstar]

I really think the title of the thread is wrong .
Its headed over weight riders .
It really should be riders too heavy for their horses the degree of weight the rider is over does not really matter as long as the horse is up to the weight .
Many things go effect how much weight is right for a horse, the horses weight is only one of them .

 

[TPO]

But this isn't about why someone weighs whatever they weigh. That's a whole different topic.

I honestly couldn't care what someone else weighs when it's not affecting me. I do care when horses are expected to carry excessive weight because someone has decided they want to ride regardless.

I've posited about it before but there is a "too heavy for their horse" rider at the annual western show up here.They also don't have a well fitting saddle; in fact its a nasty synthetic that literally bends due to the excess weight. The rider is beyond the cantle and the wee horse displays every pain sign known to man (pain face, ears pinned, tail twitching and swishing, bunny hops etc). The show organiser, stewards, and judge won't say or do anything because their ethos is to "be kind" and encouraging to get more people involved. I appreciate that its not an easy convo to have but surely that's one of the onuses when volunteering as show staff/management?

Its no surprise that the show is struggling for entries and repeat spectators. It's certainly not enticing (not just that we've also got big spurs on gripped up legs, english contact on shanked bits etc).

Back to weight, people can do and be what they want but if for whatever reasons, intentional or not, they are too heavy for the suspension bridge that is a horses back then they shouldn't be on it.

Horses bodyweight and 15/20% isn't a perfect system but it's a start.

I also wouldn't see the need to weigh everyone. The % of people who either look heavier or lighter than they actual are is minimal compared to people who are very obviously far too big to be on horse back. They should be the initial focus.

I think they were mentioned earlier but there was an influenzer who was very heavy* and had an obese horse yet they were get sponsorship and endorsements from big name brands. Everyone is to "be kind", but not to the horse apparently!!

*only found them via posts on here and links to tattle [from here]. Was too sickened to look again so maybe (hopefully) the weight situation has changed

 

[Tiddlypom]

MH may well be behind many people's struggles with their weight, but that does not give anyone a free pass to ride a horse for which they are too heavy.

The horse does not have a free choice, the rider does. Yes, it might all be very complicated re a person's relationship with food, but the horse's welfare must always come first.

 

[sbloom]

It is a different topic, but it was brought up - the whole "pandering" and some of the comments aren't helpful to the discussion. And no, a rider that is too heavy for their horse for MH reasons (listen to the podcast and you'll see why so many are overweight, it's not simply gluttony or laziness) doesn't get a pass, there is no-one on this thread that thinks horse welfare doesn't trump concerns about the rider.

 

[GrassChop]

I was 14.5 stone in the photo. I wasn't aware of the horse's weight, but I was under the limit for the centre. That's around 92 kg.

Sorry, hope you don't think I was saying you are heavier than you are! You don't look it, it was just used as an example!

 

[paddy555]

If we're getting into individuals and their struggles with weight I will, as always, come down on the side of mental health and that so much WILL come across as fat bashing, no matter how much you get annoyed by that or think it's outrageous. We are not in the world we were in before the epidemic of obesity started. Rangan Chattergee's podcast was fascinating this week, I only heard it because I had Spotify on autoplay and glad I did. Oh and give @rebelfit a follow on FB (and probably insta).

#381 Why Your Brain Wants You To Be Anxious, Lazy & Fat (And What You Can Do About It) with Dr Anders Hansen

Podcast Episode · Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee · 05/09/2023 · 1h 40m

podcasts.apple.com

sorry I don't go for that. We have not changed that much so quickly as a species. What has changed is the lack of responsibility and let's call it an epidemic of obesity because that is a good excuse.

As far as "your brain" is concerned then I'm sure many people's brain's would love them to do things they shouldn't but they don't. They overide it and control it. For example the horse walks all over you, you are in an anxious mood and would love to beat the living daylights out of it for hurting you. You don't. You stand back and count to 10. You see something you like in the saddlers. You realise you can't afford it and put it back, you don't just walk off with it.
Same with food which, let's face it is the real cause of obesity.

If people think the excuse is their brain making them get fat and give in to it how are they going to think any differently about being overweight and riding a horse. Their brain says it wants to ride, let's ride.
Up to people if they want to get fat, sorry NHS, but until some adopt a realistic view of the problem it will never be seen as a horse welfare issue.

 

[Cortez]

Presumably our brains haven't changed that much that quickly? 30 - 40 years ago we weren't anywhere near as fat on average.

 

[GrassChop]

Presumably our brains haven't changed that much that quickly? 30 - 40 years ago we weren't anywhere near as fat on average.

Unfortunately, takeaways and unhealthy food wasn't as easily accessible as it is now. You don't even need to leave the house anymore if you want something!

 

[sbloom]

Presumably our brains haven't changed that much that quickly? 30 - 40 years ago we weren't anywhere near as fat on average.

Yes and no, the environment is completely and utterly different in terms of the type of food that surrounds us and the availability of/access to it, plus the environment causes changes in DNA that get passed down the generations (can't remember the name of it). Listen to the podcast, we can think what the hell we like, but science is telling us the facts.

 

[Arzada]

There was a highland pony at our local show that was so fat it looked like a blob. The judge told her the horse was overweight and she argued that he’d been weighed and was fine. This horse was not fine and she was told by a judge that he wasn’t but she won’t listen. I do feel for professionals having to deal with that.

I am interested to know if anyone has reported an obese horse to the RSPCA. And what action the RSPCA took.

 

[expanding_horizon]

The thing I dont entirely understand is surely a smaller short backed stocky horse with bone can carry more weight than a bigger horse that isnt as compact?

Leaving out age / fitness / back muscle, surely a smaller stockier horse will cope better sometimes than a bigger all over horse?

I vary between 75-85kg personally and I bought a horse that is sized to accommodate this. But I do wonder about smaller and stockier horses also working.

 

[SEL]

I am interested to know if anyone has reported an obese horse to the RSPCA. And what action the RSPCA took.

One at my old yard. They visited and gave the owner an action plan.

 

[blitznbobs]

Are we going to stop people competing that have poor saddle fit as there are plenty of studies that a poorly fitting saddle creates more pressure points than a heavy rider?

 

[ycbm]

I was 14.5 stone in the photo. I wasn't aware of the horse's weight, but I was under the limit for the centre. That's around 92 kg.

Exactly Joseph, there are plenty of horses which can carry your weight. Unfortunately for beginners like you there aren't that many of them at riding schools.
.

 

[DabDab]

MH may well be behind many people's struggles with their weight, but that does not give anyone a free pass to ride a horse for which they are too heavy.

The horse does not have a free choice, the rider does. Yes, it might all be very complicated re a person's relationship with food, but the horse's welfare must always come first.

But they don't believe they are too heavy?

Hence discussion like this about what can practically be done. "Don't ride your horse if you are too heavy for it, horse welfare comes first" might feel nice to type but it's just not meaningful in any way.

"Don't ride your horse in a saddle that doesn't fit properly. Welfare come first"

"Don't ride with heavy hands. Horse welfare come first"

"Don't jump your horse too much. Horse welfare comes first"

All meaningless without qualification. Back in the day stuff like this used to be considered elements of horsemanship, now discussions of this type just seem to be reduced into some meaninglessly black and white soundbites, where everyone picks a side and then becomes increasingly entrenched in their side. And it improves nothing

 

[Tiddlypom]

I'm not talking soundbites to make me feel good? I'm talking hard action which includes the compulsory weighing of riders.

Yes, there's lots more to be done re saddle fit, rider skills etc but getting riders who are too heavy off horses backs is a start. As many riders are in denial that they are too heavy for their horse(s), compulsory weighing has to be part of it.

 

[Kaylum]

But this isn't about why someone weighs whatever they weigh. That's a whole different topic.

I honestly couldn't care what someone else weighs when it's not affecting me. I do care when horses are expected to carry excessive weight because someone has decided they want to ride regardless.

I've posited about it before but there is a "too heavy for their horse" rider at the annual western show up here.They also don't have a well fitting saddle; in fact its a nasty synthetic that literally bends due to the excess weight. The rider is beyond the cantle and the wee horse displays every pain sign known to man (pain face, ears pinned, tail twitching and swishing, bunny hops etc). The show organiser, stewards, and judge won't say or do anything because their ethos is to "be kind" and encouraging to get more people involved. I appreciate that its not an easy convo to have but surely that's one of the onuses when volunteering as show staff/management?

Its no surprise that the show is struggling for entries and repeat spectators. It's certainly not enticing (not just that we've also got big spurs on gripped up legs, english contact on shanked bits etc).

Back to weight, people can do and be what they want but if for whatever reasons, intentional or not, they are too heavy for the suspension bridge that is a horses back then they shouldn't be on it.

Horses bodyweight and 15/20% isn't a perfect system but it's a start.

I also wouldn't see the need to weigh everyone. The % of people who either look heavier or lighter than they actual are is minimal compared to people who are very obviously far too big to be on horse back. They should be the initial focus.

I think they were mentioned earlier but there was an influencer who was very heavy* and had an obese horse yet they were get sponsorship and endorsements from big name brands. Everyone is to "be kind", but not to the horse apparently!!

*only found them via posts on here and links to tattle [from here]. Was too sickened to look again so maybe (hopefully) the weight situation has changed

Don't even go there about tiktok influencers - shocking is the word.

 

[Cortez]

Hence discussion like this about what can practically be done. "Don't ride your horse if you are too heavy for it, horse welfare comes first" might feel nice to type but it's just not meaningful in any way.


Back in the day stuff like this used to be considered elements of horsemanship, now discussions of this type just seem to be reduced into some meaninglessly black and white soundbites, where everyone picks a side and then becomes increasingly entrenched in their side. And it improves nothing

How is it not meaningful to discuss a problem? It is the first step in getting something done about it. NOT discussing it achieves precisely nothing. Horsemanship isn't "back in the day", it is real, it exists, it's not just soundbites either. It's seemingly becoming somewhat rare, but it is still here. And I can assure you it feels anything but nice to have to discuss this in the first place, it's tragic.

 

[Dave's Mam]

My riding club got the weigh bridge in at camp so everyone could weigh their horses and got a condition score. Otherwise I would have no idea. Could your yard arrange to get the vet out with theirs and everyone chip in?

I think I was the only one who got on with my riding stuff and tack to see what my total weight was.

We had a weighbridge come to the yard & like you, I was the only one to go & grab my saddle & step on myself.