Pandering to overweight riders

[DabDab]

How is it not meaningful to discuss a problem? It is the first step in getting something done about it. NOT discussing it achieves precisely nothing. Horsemanship isn't "back in the day", it is real, it exists, it's not just soundbites either. It's seemingly becoming somewhat rare, but it is still here. And I can assure you it feels anything but nice to have to discuss this in the first place, it's tragic.

I literally said that this is what discussion like this should be about, just reducing the discussion to soundbites is really unhelpful? Right there, in black and white in my words I am advocating discussion.

Because 'don't ride if you are too heavy' is not discussing the problem, it is a meaningless soundbite.

I also did not say that horsemanship is a past tense concept.

Try having another read again eh

 

[DabDab]

I'm not talking soundbites to make me feel good? I'm talking hard action which includes the compulsory weighing of riders.

Yes, there's lots more to be done re saddle fit, rider skills etc but getting riders who are too heavy off horses backs is a start. As many riders are in denial that they are too heavy for their horse(s), compulsory weighing has to be part of it.

I was quoting your specific post right there, not anything else you may or may not have advocated throughout the thread, thats why i quoted your specific post. I'm simply pointing out that saying to people to get off their horse if they are too heavy is not useful, and using it as an example of the way these discussions always seem to go

 

[cobgoblin]

Given that so many parents cannot even recognise that their own children are obese these days, and that they continue to fed them pizzas and burgers whilst staring straight at the amorphous blob sitting across the table. What chance is there that any improvement in horee welfare re rider weight will come about without some sort of official enforcement?
Bring out the scales.

 

[expanding_horizon]

We had a weighbridge come to the yard & like you, I was the only one to go & grab my saddle & step on myself.

I was also amazed when had weighbridge at trec, how many people thought if the horse was overweight, they meant there was a higher number to calculate from rather than taking the % weight the horse can carry from the horse's ideal weight. If anything you should subtract the extra weight a horse is carrying from the total at the end. But shouldnt it be obvious the % carrying weight is based on the horse's idea weight. (Unless horse is underweight).

 

[expanding_horizon]

I was quoting your specific post right there, not anything else you may or may not have advocated throughout the thread, thats why i quoted your specific post. I'm simply pointing out that saying to people to get off their horse if they are too heavy is not useful, and using it as an example of the way these discussions always seem to go

How else do you discuss it?

I have sold a smaller horse (5 years ago) and in last few years actively bought a bigger horse. One factor influencing this was recognising that my weight average has crept up in middle age. I still try and exercise and manage my weight, but equally recognising what my realisitic balanced weight is for me and making sure it is within my horse's comfort zone is important.

Another tall friend of mine has a smaller horse, she diets very actively to stay light for this horse, I admire her effort.

 

[tristar]

how are many riders able to find out what their horse weighs? many like me are on private yards a long way from the nearest weighbridge and without transport.
Everything I have read about weigh tapes is that they underweigh (that is iro discussing worming weights)

one may be able to have weight restrictions at shows however what about say hunting? I doubt they are going to give a damn and the vast majority of ordinary riders wouldn't even be aware of it let alone bother

exactly.

the main idea is to start at competitions, when horses are presented to compete, ie to be put under pressure to deliver a certain standard of performance.

as said before at vettings weight could be a component of suitability for the purchaser

such as yourself you can make your own calculation based loosely or approximately as a guidance, also you can weigh yourself and know when you put on or lose weight, and see when you horses do likewise, we generally have a weight idea for when worming them do we not?

i have just done this cause i was a bit worried about the small horse just 15 hh, of cob type it came out i am just under 15 per cent and have very lightweight saddle, the irons are the heaviest part so i was very relieved as i hope to debut him in competition at some point, and feel a little under pressure as my sponsor bought a new jacket for the job so its one thing i do not have to ponder on,

 

[marmalade76]

The thing I dont entirely understand is surely a smaller short backed stocky horse with bone can carry more weight than a bigger horse that isnt as compact?

Leaving out age / fitness / back muscle, surely a smaller stockier horse will cope better sometimes than a bigger all over horse?

I vary between 75-85kg personally and I bought a horse that is sized to accommodate this. But I do wonder about smaller and stockier horses also working.

I agree, I think ponies are capable of comfortably carrying a greater percentage of their own bodyweight than any horse. The only horse that could trump them is the Arab.

 

[DabDab]

How else do you discuss it?

Is that a trick question?

There's 10 pages with a fair amount of discussion here, and many many more threads on the subject with discussion.

Look, cards on the table, I am relatively slim, and I have always been relatively slim, I diet regularly to keep myself that way, which is not something I find hard to do, and I also have no qualms about laying off riding for a time when I believe I would physically hamper my horses (usually for reasons of muscle spasm/crookedness etc). Do I have a certain level of disdain for those who don't behave similarly? Yep. But I am simply not of the notion that me vomiting that opinion in its simplest terms, with all it's disdain, over the Internet will change a single thing.

I am pro bringing in regulation for things like rider weight, but people/bodies/organisations that come up with regulations have to be pragmatic about it, and therefore need to consider nuance, and there needs to be some consensus from either the wider community or science on that nuance.

 

[hock]

The first page had me about to say, oh yer those groups are awful and everyone’s in denial etc etc. But by the end of the first page start of the second the thread started to get a bit “I live on water so I can ride my Suffolk punch because I weigh 6 stone”.

Problem is the people who feel really strong about it deliver the message in such a horrible way that you chase all the “overweight riders” to cling together for support lol. Then they all tell each other they’re fine, clearly a lot are not fine.

If you truly want to help the cause learn to communicate and educate rather than win the argument on a forum.

I’ve been kicked off fat riders pages (as a fat rider) so I’m on your side but the approach is really ugly and you’re not helping at all. If you truly want to help the repetitive “riding horses if your overweight is abuse”. I don’t care who you are what you know how fabulous you are, if you think that’s going to change an overweight persons mind you’re on crack.

Do you want to help or win the argument on a forum that no one will think about in a week?

 

[ponynutz]

how are many riders able to find out what their horse weighs? many like me are on private yards a long way from the nearest weighbridge and without transport.
Everything I have read about weigh tapes is that they underweigh (that is iro discussing worming weights)

one may be able to have weight restrictions at shows however what about say hunting? I doubt they are going to give a damn and the vast majority of ordinary riders wouldn't even be aware of it let alone bother

exactly.

I’ve only weighed my horse once - she sees the vet every 6 months to a year and I ask then about her condition. Over the years I know what 3/5 condition looks like on her and so I maintain it by eye.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Ok, so how do you discuss the problem of overweight riders on horses without being allowed to mention that overweight riders on horses is a equine welfare issue?

There has been no fat shaming on here that I can see. If people want to go large, well that's grand, but not if it affects animal welfare. That's been said plenty.

I'm no good at tip toeing around an issue. Perhaps someone could direct those of us who really can't see what the issue is with declaring that if you're too heavy, don't get on the horse? I'm not deliberately being awkward, but I just don't understand mind games . That's in general, not just on HHO.

 

[TPO]

The first page had me about to say, oh yer those groups are awful and everyone’s in denial etc etc. But by the end of the first page start of the second the thread started to get a bit “I live on water so I can ride my Suffolk punch because I weigh 6 stone”.

Problem is the people who feel really strong about it deliver the message in such a horrible way that you chase all the “overweight riders” to cling together for support lol. Then they all tell each other they’re fine, clearly a lot are not fine.

If you truly want to help the cause learn to communicate and educate rather than win the argument on a forum.

I’ve been kicked off fat riders pages (as a fat rider) so I’m on your side but the approach is really ugly and you’re not helping at all. If you truly want to help the repetitive “riding horses if your overweight is abuse”. I don’t care who you are what you know how fabulous you are, if you think that’s going to change an overweight persons mind you’re on crack.

Do you want to help or win the argument on a forum that no one will think about in a week?

So your argument is what exactly? All I can take from your post is "fat riders won't listen" when the message is "don't ride horses that you are too heavy for".

I mean we're talking about adults, why does anyone need the screaming obvious pointed out to them?? We're not talking about a kilo or 5.

I don't believe for a minute that every human isn't vaguely aware of their size/weight/fitness. People who are too heavy for their horses are doing so knowingly and putting their wants ahead of animal welfare.

The nuances can be discussed until everyone is blue in the face but at the extreme end of the spectrum its plain as day to tell a person that is too heavy/big for their/any horse.

 

[ponynutz]

Ok, so how do you discuss the problem of overweight riders on horses without being allowed to mention that overweight riders on horses is a equine welfare issue?

There has been no fat shaming on here that I can see. If people want to go large, well that's grand, but not if it affects animal welfare. That's been said plenty.

I'm no good at tip toeing around an issue. Perhaps someone could direct those of us who really can't see what the issue is with declaring that if you're too heavy, don't get on the horse? I'm not deliberately being awkward, but I just don't understand mind games . That's in general, not just on HHO.

I really think it’s easy to slip into judgment if the system to maintain standards at shows isn’t designed to include everyone. Everyone needs to be weighed if that is what we want because there IS such a stigma about being overweight in society. Being deemed visibly overweight enough to need to be weighed would feel almost like public humiliation.

(Not a clap back at you Tiddly pom, this post of yours just made me reflect on more reasons why a fair system is needed rather than a quick one)

 

[Cortez]

The first page had me about to say, oh yer those groups are awful and everyone’s in denial etc etc. But by the end of the first page start of the second the thread started to get a bit “I live on water so I can ride my Suffolk punch because I weigh 6 stone”.

Problem is the people who feel really strong about it deliver the message in such a horrible way that you chase all the “overweight riders” to cling together for support lol. Then they all tell each other they’re fine, clearly a lot are not fine.

If you truly want to help the cause learn to communicate and educate rather than win the argument on a forum.

I’ve been kicked off fat riders pages (as a fat rider) so I’m on your side but the approach is really ugly and you’re not helping at all. If you truly want to help the repetitive “riding horses if your overweight is abuse”. I don’t care who you are what you know how fabulous you are, if you think that’s going to change an overweight persons mind you’re on crack.

Do you want to help or win the argument on a forum that no one will think about in a week?

So how do you propose to address the problem then? I still teach a bit, and I will point out the obvious if it needs to be pointed out.

*I don't have a large crack habit, but a number of people that I teach have gone on to lose sufficient weight to be able to ride their horses properly.

 

[DabDab]

No problem with saying it is a welfare issue, but maybe we could talk about why it is a welfare issue? What effect is a rider (any rider) getting onto the back of a horse having on that horse? And what part does rider weight play in that equation.

Not mind games really, just generally accepted as a more successful way to bring about a change if consensus in a wide community than polarising statements

 

[Cortez]

No problem with saying it is a welfare issue, but maybe we could talk about why it is a welfare issue? What effect is a rider (any rider) getting onto the back of a horse having on that horse? And what part does rider weight play in that equation.

Not mind games really, just generally accepted as a more successful way to bring about a change if consensus in a wide community than polarising statements

What do you consider polarising?

 

[expanding_horizon]

Is that a trick question?

There's 10 pages with a fair amount of discussion here, and many many more threads on the subject with discussion.

Look, cards on the table, I am relatively slim, and I have always been relatively slim, I diet regularly to keep myself that way, which is not something I find hard to do, and I also have no qualms about laying off riding for a time when I believe I would physically hamper my horses (usually for reasons of muscle spasm/crookedness etc). Do I have a certain level of disdain for those who don't behave similarly? Yep. But I am simply not of the notion that me vomiting that opinion in its simplest terms, with all it's disdain, over the Internet will change a single thing.

I am pro bringing in regulation for things like rider weight, but people/bodies/organisations that come up with regulations have to be pragmatic about it, and therefore need to consider nuance, and there needs to be some consensus from either the wider community or science on that nuance.

What I meant is if someone trainer / vet /physio / judge / friend doesn’t discuss a rider being too heavy for a horse with the rider how do things improve? Not discussing it (tactfully) with the rider will not drive any change?

 

[DabDab]

So your argument is what exactly? All I can take from your post is "fat riders won't listen" when the message is "don't ride horses that you are too heavy for".

I mean we're talking about adults, why does anyone need the screaming obvious pointed out to them?? We're not talking about a kilo or 5.

I don't believe for a minute that every human isn't vaguely aware of their size/weight/fitness. People who are too heavy for their horses are doing so knowingly and putting their wants ahead of animal welfare.

The nuances can be discussed until everyone is blue in the face but at the extreme end of the spectrum its plain as day to tell a person that is too heavy/big for their/any horse.

Why say anything at all then? If they all already know that they are too heavy?

Nobody discusses the nuances, until they are blue in the face or otherwise. The 15 or 20% rule is literally as nuanced as it seems to get for the most part. Probably why people have been talking about this for years and years and still no hint of any regulation changes or whatnot

 

[hock]

Ok, so how do you discuss the problem of overweight riders on horses without being allowed to mention that overweight riders on horses is a equine welfare issue?

There has been no fat shaming on here that I can see. If people want to go large, well that's grand, but not if it affects animal welfare. That's been said plenty.

I'm no good at tip toeing around an issue. Perhaps someone could direct those of us who really can't see what the issue is with declaring that if you're too heavy, don't get on the horse? I'm not deliberately being awkward, but I just don't understand mind games . That's in general, not just on HHO.

So how do you propose to address the problem then? I still teach a bit, and I will point out the obvious if it needs to be pointed out.

*I don't have a large crack habit, but a number of people that I teach have gone on to lose sufficient weight to be able to ride their horses properly.

With respect you need to work that out yourself. Which is the best scenario:

For years I was too scared to have a back person out to my horse, a saddler etc because I was scared they would be disgusted I was riding. I was thinner than I am now.

Now I have a fabulous saddler that checks all my horses regularly and I have a great back person who also does the same. I also now have a trainer that’s Grand Prix x 2. I weigh more now than I did in the before scenario but less than when I met the right professionals that were kind and approachable and I could be honest with them and discuss their/my concerns.

My horses are much better off now surely?

 

[expanding_horizon]

No problem with saying it is a welfare issue, but maybe we could talk about why it is a welfare issue? What effect is a rider (any rider) getting onto the back of a horse having on that horse? And what part does rider weight play in that equation.

Not mind games really, just generally accepted as a more successful way to bring about a change if consensus in a wide community than polarising statements

Generally sitting on a horse is bad for it, unless you are able to encourage horse to move in a way that building weight carrying muscle. But the issue is compounded if a rider is too heavy for a horse.

 

[DabDab]

What do you consider polarising?

Most of your posts tbh

 

[expanding_horizon]

With respect you need to work that out yourself. Which is the best scenario:

For years I was too scared to have a back person out to my horse, a saddler etc because I was scared they would be disgusted I was riding. I was thinner than I am now.

Now I have a fabulous saddler that checks all my horses regularly and I have a great back person who also does the same. I also now have a trainer that’s Grand Prix x 2. I weigh more now than I did in the before scenario but less than when I met the right professionals that were kind and approachable and I could be honest with them and discuss their/my concerns.

My horses are much better off now surely?

Yes providing these professionals are being honest with you that all is okay.

 

[GrassChop]

To be honest, I think the horse log pulling challenges should be stopped as well as a lot are way too heavy but that's a whole other rabbit hole.

 

[Cortez]

Most of your posts tbh

It would be more helpful if you could elaborate. As I have repeatedly said I have numbers of students who have been told they were too heavy for their horses (not all were overweight BTW, just too big for their itty bitty little mounts - men, in those instances), who have lost weight or acquired more suitable ones. Is that polarising?

 

[I'm Dun]

This is pretty polarising

if one was to start a thread on here along the lines of overweight (human) and personal responsibility there would be screams of objections. It is not the person's fault, (and in some cases it isn't as there are medical or drug taking problems) the effects such comments as "personal responsibility" would have on their mental health. If you were to say that it is selfish as it impacts on the NHS with obesity related problems that would be dismissed and if you were to look at the real problem for the person ie the strain on their joints, type 2, heart problems etc etc then no one seems to care IRL.
If people don't care about what additional weight is doing to their own health why would they extend that to their horse. (tongue also probably in cheek before the rants appear)

serious riders (competing or not) will seriously consider 15 or 20% and the impact it could be having and how they could improve the situation. The others will ask their friend's, be told it is fine and reach for another ginger biscuit.

 

[TPO]

Why say anything at all then? If they all already know that they are too heavy?

In an attempt to stop them prioritising themselves over the horse? It's easier to carry on doing something that you know you shouldn't be if people are going to turn a blind eye

 

[hock]

Yes providing these professionals are being honest with you that all is okay.

It’s better than ok surely? Out of my yard of 10 I only ride 3 of them because I’m too heavy but luckily I have a stable jockey for the horses I can’t ride.

I appreciate having access to the professionals I do because clearly If you question your professionals integrity you don’t. That would be a great concern for me.

 

[hock]

So your argument is what exactly? All I can take from your post is "fat riders won't listen" when the message is "don't ride horses that you are too heavy for".

I mean we're talking about adults, why does anyone need the screaming obvious pointed out to them?? We're not talking about a kilo or 5.

I don't believe for a minute that every human isn't vaguely aware of their size/weight/fitness. People who are too heavy for their horses are doing so knowingly and putting their wants ahead of animal welfare.

The nuances can be discussed until everyone is blue in the face but at the extreme end of the spectrum its plain as day to tell a person that is too heavy/big for their/any horse.

But this approach isn’t working is it? So crack on with it, but don’t expect to suddenly change their ways. If you really want to help and hopefully you do you need to find a way that makes people change their minds.

 

[expanding_horizon]

It’s better than ok surely? Out of my yard of 10 I only ride 3 of them because I’m too heavy but luckily I have a stable jockey for the horses I can’t ride.

I appreciate having access to the professionals I do because clearly If you question your professionals integrity you don’t. That would be a great concern for me.

Yes if they give clear feedback on which horses are appropriate for you to ride that sounds great. Sounds like you’ve found a good team.

 

[tristar]

i have to say i have made a determined effort to lose some weight, so far 9 pounds another 8 or so to come off, mainly because i am concerned that it may continue to creep up and there is no advantage in it for the horses, and when my clothes do not fit.

i also think the overall picture of the 15 hh will be more elegant if both of us are trim ish and fit looking, although i have seen very good riders on the heavy side, but for myself, no, health considerations such as high blood pressure, diabetes etc can be avoided in the main

and the horses deserve the best we can do, to make some effort, after all we try to keep them on the right side of heavy, because of laminitis, leg problems, insulin resistance it all part of the large conundrum, the balancing act that on the day sees a horse and rider perform well, and its a hard place to get to

certain bits are allowed, types of spur, colour of jods, some action are not allowed, beating the horse into submission, working it in rollkur?, or holding it in a position with its head and neck until it must surely need the relief to let the blood flow, blue tongues,etc. BLOOD IN MOUTH BLOOD ON SIDES

all these things have been seen at top level, they still happen, then are we too heavy,? well yes i think we can be, definately the one i saw the other week, well that was horrific!!!!!!what is more to point is working towards what we think is humane for the horse overall, and weight is just one aspect,