ester
Not slacking multitasking
I'm very happy to pass judgement on people whose horses are at best struggling, at worse suffering as a result of their actions.
Parelli - yay or neigh?
- Thread starter Cheval Gal
- Start date
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
From the water deprivation thread. https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/water-deprivation-as-a-training-tool.538255/
The above is exactly why you are correct to judge Mrs J. The dog needed someone to speak up on their behalf and no-one did.
Cheval Gal
Well-Known Member
This is dreadful. I'm beginning to wonder why the movement has become so very popular. The ladies I know who practise it think they know more than anyone about horse behaviour. It comes across to me as trying to break a horse's spirit. This thread has simply confirmed my views.From the water deprivation thread. https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/water-deprivation-as-a-training-tool.538255/
The above is exactly why you are correct to judge Mrs J. The dog needed someone to speak up on their behalf and no-one did.
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
Its popularity grew for many reasons.
1. 'NH' is perceived as being kinder than traditional horsemanship. I have no doubt that some really rough stuff went on in the Old West in the US, Monty Roberts talked about his father's rough methods a lot when he brought his version of NH over here. Of course we didn't have the wild west here in the UK so asking if 'NH' is kinder than the BHS way probably boils down to the individual using it.
2. Good propaganda/advertising. This ties into 1 to some extent, but most people I have spoken to about Parelli always mention the advertising of the DVDs and merchandise as being part of the success. I found it interesting that it was mentioned upthread that this is Linda's area of expertise. She's done an amazing job.
3. Cult feeling. There is definitely a bit of a cultish feeling with the followers of Parelli. I have been told that i wouldn't understand because I've not followed the programme. I'm an 'outsider' and only the 'insiders' get it. I still feel that not letting your horse drink is wrong, I don't want to be brainwashed into thinking that's OK thank you.
4. Learning from DVDs. This definitely make the programme accessible to people who can't or won't see a trainer regularly. There is also the fact that the way the programme is structured (with levels that you move up) makes people think that if they just follow the DVDs and buy the equipment that they will become great horse people. This is a seductive concept that is appealing. Unfortunately you cannot learn everything from DVDs and in person training is invaluable to show you what you are doing wrong that you don't even *know* you are doing wrong.
5. Feeling part of something good. Not quite the same as the cultish aspect so I've put this separately. The people I knew definitely wanted to do right by their horses and they supported each other.
6. There is some good horsemanship in there. While there are aspects (some quite big) that i don't like about Parelli, there is some good horse sense in there too. If people find those bits and they help them with their horse, it can make them more willing to go along with the more uncomfortable parts. Of course some people take the good bits and leave the rest and that is the best approach IMO.
I'm sure there's more, but this is what I witnessed all those years ago.
Pedantic
Well-Known Member
Saw a clip some time ago of I think his daughter flicking some poor horse with the metal buckle on the end of its attached rope, supposedly teaching its owner, I wasnt impressed.
Gingerwitch
Well-Known Member
And how do you know if she is turning out, bringing in or moving your horse by teaching it the parelli way ? Problem with parelliets is the think they know better and others whom don't follow this method are stupid.
Supertrooper
Well-Known Member
I never felt comfortable with Parelli, only real experiences I’ve had of it are with a horse who’s owner did it almost constantly with him who was the most switched off horse after she started. It was as though he was no longer there anymore
And from what I remember rightly the awful demo they did with a well known SJ’s horse which didn’t end well
I’ve always enjoyed reading Mark Rashids books and saw a demo of his also. He seems like he’s a natural horseman who doesn’t need gadgets
And from what I remember rightly the awful demo they did with a well known SJ’s horse which didn’t end well
I’ve always enjoyed reading Mark Rashids books and saw a demo of his also. He seems like he’s a natural horseman who doesn’t need gadgets
FinnishLapphund
There's no cow on the ice
I want to take this opportunity to correct myself, and apologise for previously having given Pat Parelli a bit of praise on another thread, some years ago. I said that I had one of his books, way back from when he started to get famous in Europe in the early 90's, which had once helped me with a dog problem.
I used to have a Smooth Collie that didn't pull on the leash. Except whenever she thought we were turning to start to go home, then she would throw herself forward, and nearly yank my arm off/make me fall on my face.
ETA Difficult to brace myself against it, since I never knew when she would realise that we might be on the way home./eta
When I wrote the reply I remembered that I hadn't been able to find anything about that problem in my dog books, instead I had found the solution in a Horsemanship book. I remembered I had the Pat Parelli book, put one and one together, and didn't go to the bookshelf to check.
Today, it has passed so many years, I wasn't sure I really had a book by Pat Parelli. Went to the bookshelf to check, and found that I have more than one book in the Western Horseman series. The one by Pat Parelli, but also Problem-solving by Marty Marten.
Oops. Sorry, it is Marty Marten that I should have praised.
It is his suggestions for how to solve problems with horses who either wants to rush home to the stable, or doesn't want to go far from the stable, which fixed the problem with my dog.
I used to have a Smooth Collie that didn't pull on the leash. Except whenever she thought we were turning to start to go home, then she would throw herself forward, and nearly yank my arm off/make me fall on my face.
ETA Difficult to brace myself against it, since I never knew when she would realise that we might be on the way home./eta
When I wrote the reply I remembered that I hadn't been able to find anything about that problem in my dog books, instead I had found the solution in a Horsemanship book. I remembered I had the Pat Parelli book, put one and one together, and didn't go to the bookshelf to check.
Today, it has passed so many years, I wasn't sure I really had a book by Pat Parelli. Went to the bookshelf to check, and found that I have more than one book in the Western Horseman series. The one by Pat Parelli, but also Problem-solving by Marty Marten.
Oops. Sorry, it is Marty Marten that I should have praised.
It is his suggestions for how to solve problems with horses who either wants to rush home to the stable, or doesn't want to go far from the stable, which fixed the problem with my dog.
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
Marty Marten is a good guy. He's based near Boulder and used to do regular clinics at my barn there. I went to several with my first horse and then my current horse. He spent a lot of time talking about softness and lightness and standing around doing very little that was exciting, just gently encouraging the horse to soften its jaw and poll. Was it him who suggested what we used to call a 'star' for dealing with horses who wanted to rush home? You ride the horse out, doesn't matter how far, then go back to the barn. But then, you go back in a different direction. Rinse and repeat a few times. Horse soon learns that anticipating the trip home is a bit pointless because you might just go out again.
Pinkvboots
Well-Known Member
Can't stand parelli
honetpot
Well-Known Member
Is this supposed to be surprisingly enlightening, I worked this out when I was about thirteen. I must be a genius.
HazuraJane
Well-Known Member
That's been my take on Parelli as well. Cue up people who chatter non-stop whilst walking their horse on a lead line, telling the horse there's nothing to be scared of. Oof.
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
I clearly wasn't as bright as you when I was 13, because I needed a trainer to help me solve that problem.
And if I had a pound for every adult I've met who couldn't ride their horse out alone or got dragged back to the barn jigging and dancing, I would be buying my own equestrian property. It clearly isn't obvious nor common knowledge.
And if I had a pound for every adult I've met who couldn't ride their horse out alone or got dragged back to the barn jigging and dancing, I would be buying my own equestrian property. It clearly isn't obvious nor common knowledge.
Griffin
Well-Known Member
I am not a fan of Parelli, some aspects I find cruel.
Skib
Well-Known Member
I dont know why you are so down on this?
I was in my early years of learning and had to lead a horse I didnt know quite a long way on my own. The teacher had compared it to taking a toddler for a walk. I was responsible and one does talk to a toddler. I recited Ride a Cock horse to Banbury Cross to the mare over and over again as it was the only rhyme I could think of with equestrian content.
Stupid really but horses do like me and do do as I say.
Talking to the horse means ones mind is on the horse; and the horse gives one its attention back. Contrast more experienced people leading horses while on their phone.
Shilasdair
Patting her thylacine
We are so down on this because talking constantly to your horse is the equivalent of white noise - and the horse ceases to listen to command words. That's maybe ok if you are riding, when you use your body to give commands, but not when you are leading in hand and reliant on voice commands (with more limited use of body language).
It's the same way you switch off to a nagging person.
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
Skib - I sing to mine. AC/DC's Back in Black is good for keeping my butterflies in check, the poor neds must think 'oh no, not again!'
ETA - Shils I do see your point about white noise. I think I need to pay attention to how much i blabber on to them or not and try to get the balance right.
ETA - Shils I do see your point about white noise. I think I need to pay attention to how much i blabber on to them or not and try to get the balance right.
Shilasdair
Patting her thylacine
Skib - I sing to mine. AC/DC's Back in Black is good for keeping my butterflies in check, the poor neds must think 'oh no, not again!'
I sing to mine to punish them.
When they behave, I stop. I wonder if this works on students...
oldie48
Well-Known Member
Not a fan of Parelli but to some extent I do understand why people get sucked into it, learning to work effectively with horses on the ground is a real skill and too many people get hurt when things go wrong because they have misread the situation. One of our horses wouldn't load and had a nasty habit of running backwards at speed as soon as her feet touched the ramp. I went to a Richard Maxwell demo, bought the DVD and the halter and did all the practice. TBH I think I was pretty hopeless with regard to timing etc but much to my amazement she loaded (after an initial run back) and I never had a problem again and I've used the same method with other horses. I've a lot of time for Max, he treated Mr B a couple of times and he has a real connection! FWIW I've also used a brush up the bum when a horse wouldn't load onto a strange lorry following a breakdown. As the police had stopped traffic both ways on the A40 and the jams were increasing rapidly, I clearly didn't have time to retrain the horse in question, who usually loaded first time anyway and the broom had him on the lorry in a trice (water pistol also works very well too!). It's always useful to have a few things to try in an emergency!
FinnishLapphund
There's no cow on the ice
Actually the phrase 'natural horsemanship' really boils my piss.
As opposed to what? Unnatural horsemanship? And why don't we have natural goatmanship, or natural dogmanship, or catmanship? We don't really know what wild horses do in behavioural terms as there aren't any. Prezwalski's horses, which an old university colleague used to study, are feral at best, and the same applies to the Camargue horses.
So maybe we need to remove the feelgood word 'natural' and just revert to horsemanship. Then again, if someone has horsemanship skills, they generally don't have to flag it to you...
Since I now happen to have the book Natural Horse-man-ship by Pat Parelli in front of me, I can inform you, and others, what the opposite actually is.
According to the introduction to Parelli's philosophy, on page 6-7, the opposite of Natural horsemanship is Normal horsemanship!
Apparently "Natural is what Mother Nature provides for us and allows us to work with."
"In contrast is Normal horsemanship, which is sometimes obtained through mechanics, fear, and intimidation." (Maybe Linda P should have read this before "training" that one-eyed horse.)
"Normal is what everybody does that everybody else is doing when they have half a mind to." "We go through life being pressured to become normal." "One thing that normal does is put a thick shell on our imaginations."
"Normal has synonyms like good, common, average, ordinary, usual, conforming, typical, and mediocre. What we should want to do in Natural Horse-Man-Ship is stay away from normal. Normality is our adversary."
"Some synonyms for natural are native, instinctive, inborn, inherent, and intuitive."
I have a feeling that I should offer people reading this some virtual barf bags.
By the way, after reading ycbm's, and Mrs Jingle's replies:
I happened to notice that on the backside of the book, it says that "He has done demonstrations in front of over a million people." (Book printed 1993, the number is presumably larger by now.)
It made me think that saying that so and so many people have seen your demonstrations, may be intended to sound impressing, but doesn't really say anything about if the audience was satisfied with what they saw, or not.
FinnishLapphund
There's no cow on the ice
Yes, that is correct. The Star Pattern, which can be alternated to suit your surroundings.
What you describe is what fixed my dog. When turning home could mean just walking past the house (sometimes even the front door), continue the walk in another direction, turn back, walk past the house again, etc, she learnt that it was best to not presume that we were going to go home, until she actually was both home, and indoors.
Reading his book is very different to reading Parelli's. Already in the introduction, instead of starting to shove his philosophy down your throat, instead of saying that his way is right, and other ways are wrong, Marty Marten talks about providing ideas, giving suggestions for how to solve problems, and that there is no guarantee that his principles will work for everyone, for example for someone who is over-horsed.
TTK
Well-Known Member
Huge fan of Marty Marten, his books have helped me so much with both ground & ridden work. The man is a true horseman and doesn’t have a cult following. Parelli demos are horrible to watch
canteron
Well-Known Member
This was taken from an anti show jumping site - but in my mind applies to all disciplines from Tennessee horse walking to Parelli to showing to breeding to hunting to dressage to ......... 
all can be done well or in an abusive manner - it all depends on compassion and feel and human frality? To my mind Parelli, like whatever discipline, can be good or can be misused.
all can be done well or in an abusive manner - it all depends on compassion and feel and human frality? To my mind Parelli, like whatever discipline, can be good or can be misused.
FinnishLapphund
There's no cow on the ice
My brain sometimes gets locked into one direction of thought, and when it happens, it can be difficult to come up with any alternatives. Still happens occasionally, for example when I solve crosswords.
The books I had read, dog trainers whose classes I had attended, focused on how to make your dog walk nicely on the leash, which my dog already did. It was just this new habit that she suddenly developed, one single excited jerk forward whenever she thought we were going home. Sometimes it came when we actually started to head home, with perhaps 30 minutes walking left, other times it could come when we were 30 metres from the front door.
My brain was so locked into the idea that it was a walk nicely on the leash problem, that it was an Aha moment to find Marty Marten's Star pattern suggestion.
Quigleyandme
Well-Known Member
WTF are these two bitches trying to achieve here? I don’t get it at all.
eahotson
Well-Known Member
Neigh.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
I don't consider parelli a discipline though, it's a system.
Celtic Fringe
Well-Known Member
I was once quite amused to see someone at a local competition ask a local 'natural horseman' to help load their pony. It had been a very long day so he simply recruited around 6 big blokes to basically lift the mildly surprised, but uncomplaining beast into the trailer. Job done and everyone got to go home. I do hope they taught it to walk in by itself at a later date!
I did do two 'Intelligent Horse' clinics with my old cob when I first got him and some of it was helpful but I would not attempt a join-up or some of the other techniques on a horse now. Ours would be utterly confused by being chased around.
I did do two 'Intelligent Horse' clinics with my old cob when I first got him and some of it was helpful but I would not attempt a join-up or some of the other techniques on a horse now. Ours would be utterly confused by being chased around.
SatansLittleHelper
Well-Known Member
Can't stand the parelli team....they fit in the same box as cesar Milan for me, another arsehole who thinks it's OK to abuse animals in the name of "training".
What happened to good old common sense..??
I'm not completely against NH, each to their own....providing the horse is well cared for and happy but I don't really understand alot of the methods and what they are supposed to achieve. Seems like a lot of faffing about to me ?
?
What happened to good old common sense..??
I'm not completely against NH, each to their own....providing the horse is well cared for and happy but I don't really understand alot of the methods and what they are supposed to achieve. Seems like a lot of faffing about to me ?
?doodle
Well-Known Member
I fell into the trap of Monty Roberts. I took a horse to him to be potentially used as a demo horse along with Kelly marks. My eyes were well and truely opened by what went on behind the scenes and what was then shown to the audience. Horrific.