Patrick Kittell..

Burnttoast

Burnttoast

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micramadam said:
Sorry to butt in guys but despite what I said before I felt I had to say that not all Dutch riders practise this abuse (Rollkur).

I'm not as eloquent as some of you and my English is bit rusty (been out of the country too long :p) but I'll try and elaborate.

There are a lot of Dutch riders (including some of those at the top) who IMHO don't deserve to have horses but unfortunately these are the ones who score the points in dressage. The school of thought about Rollkur is ultimately passed down the line from these 'icons' and is seen by a lot of Dutch dressage riders/instructors as normal practise even if they won't admit that they practise it. The horses are abused during the warm up and then go on to perform a high scoring test.:mad:
One of these days I will film the warm up area at a competiton so you can see what we have to endure and rest assured there will be no editing. (Technophobe!)

On a brighter note, there is in fact a rebellion starting where the more enlightend riders are moving toward a more classical style of dressage.
We changed my daughter's instructor because we didn't agree with her methods. The least said the better!
We now travel 70Km to an instructor who advertises herself as teaching Harmonius Dressage. She believes that to get the best out of a combination there has to be harmony between horse and rider. I wholeheartedly agree and have seen massive improvements. They (my daughter and her horse) still have a way to go but with time they will get there.
This instructor has a waiting list for lessons as her methods are now beginning to show results in and out of the dressage ring.

A lot of people wouldn't have taken the time we are prepared to take to get things right but we know that the hard work and time put in now will pay dividends in the future. We seem to be in the minority and most people want instant results. Seems to be a common problem these days in all areas of life these days.
Click to expand...


What a great post. I'd wish your daughter good luck with her progress but it doesn't sound like she'll need it! :)
 
tallyho!

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Pinkatc, I was pleased to see horse got his own back. But it only means he will be strapped down and demeaned even more.
 
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Has the study by the Dutch and Danish which showed that rollkur - AND the euphemistically named LDR - increases stress levels in horses not been published in England?

Surely, the Rollkur-pro H&H must have mentioned it?
 
tallyho!

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Jess, you really do not need to dig up stuff about rollkur. It's there, we know what it is when we see it. If people need and want scholarly articles to prove its wrong, there is something not quite right. Why should you take the trouble to find it for them dear? I cannot believe some people want evidence! Some things do not need a clinical paper. This is one such thing. Sadly.

Blame the judges I say!
 
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tallyho! said:
Jess, you really do not need to dig up stuff about rollkur. It's there, we know what it is when we see it. If people need and want scholarly articles to prove its wrong, there is something not quite right. Why should you take the trouble to find it for them dear? I cannot believe some people want evidence! Some things do not need a clinical paper. This is one such thing. Sadly.

Blame the judges I say!
Click to expand...

I don't mind. It's kind of my job ( I mean I do it for a job so I find it easy) and if people want papers I sort of understand. The last one I just found is a doozy. I am going to risk this and probably get banned but here are some excerpts

Case 1
A 6-year-old eventing mare was referred for overground endoscopy (Franklin et al. 2008) with a history of abnormal respiratory noise during the cross country phase. The noise was particularly obvious when the rider slowed the horse on the approach to a fence and the horse adopted a more flexed head and neck position. A resting endoscopic examination revealed no abnormalities. The overground endoscopy was performed during 3 bouts of exercise on an all weather gallop. The peak speed attained during the exercise test was 22 mph which is slightly faster than the average speed required for novice eventing (520 m/min ≈ 19 mph). During the exercise test the rider was instructed to vary the horse's outline from flexed to extended head positions. During the periods of head and neck flexion marked palatal instability leading to dorsal displacement of the soft palate was observed, but when the horse was ridden in a more extended head and neck position, palatal function appeared relatively normal

A 6-year-old showjumper was referred for overground endoscopy with a history of inspiratory noise during exercise. The horse was currently competing successfully and performance was not thought to be affected at present. Overground endoscopy was performed in a large arena and the rider was instructed to exercise the horse as normal. During exercise no abnormal respiratory noise was audible when the horse was ridden with an extended or mildly flexed head and neck position. In addition, no abnormalities were observed endoscopically. However, when ridden with a greater degree of head and neck flexion, the reported inspiratory noise became evident. This corresponded with dynamic bilateral arytenoid and vocal fold collapse

Several studies have suggested that head and neck flexion can induce or exacerbate dynamic URT collapse (Davidson et al. 2002; Strand et al. 2004, 2009; Franklin et al. 2006; Allen et al. 2007; Strand 2009). Cases 1 and 2 describe 2 different dynamic upper respiratory tract conditions in sport horses only present when the horse exercised with a flexed head and neck position. Upper respiratory tract obstructions as a result of head and neck flexion are principally a problem in sport horses in the UK, in contrast to racehorses which exercise with the head and neck extended

Head and neck flexion has been shown to affect upper airway flow mechanics during exercise, specifically resulting in increased inspiratory impedance and decreased inspiratory flows (Petsche et al. 1995). As this obstruction occurred on inspiration and not expiration the authors proposed that this was unlikely to occur solely because of the acute angle in the airflow pathway and was more likely due to greater compliance of the airways which would allow tissues to bulge into the upper airway (Petsche et al. 1995). This theory is supported by radiographic studies which show that head and neck flexion causes a reduction in the dorsoventral diameter of the nasopharynx. A radiographic study of 9 Thoroughbreds showed that the nasopharyngeal diameter in head and neck flexion was 14.4–36.4% (mean 20.8%) narrower than the nasopharyngeal diameter in head and neck extension (K.J. Allen and L.J. McCluskie, unpublished data). Similarly, Linford et al. (1983) found the mean nasopharyngeal diameter of 5 Thoroughbreds in head flexion was 4.9 cm compared with 7.5 cm in head and neck extension. Cehak et al. (2007) also measured the pharyngeal diameter of 10 horses (mixed breeds) at 3 head positions (flexed, natural, extended) and 3 head levels (lifted dorsally, midway, lowered ventrally). The smallest mean diameter was 3.0 cm found at the dorsal flexed position and the largest mean pharyngeal diameter 5.5 cm was at the extended midway position.

It goes on but I really oughtn't to be sharing it :eek:

Booboos. Pax and give this one a read. It's written by non idiots and everything :)
 
kerilli

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THANKYOU so much for posting this.
I really hope enough people read it for it to slightly offset the current thinking, which seems to be 'unless your horse's neck is arched and its head at least vertical, you are a clueless rubbish rider'.
 
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K the pony in your avatar is clearly in front of the vertical. You must be a clueless and rubbish rider :D


eta, Jess, interesting article. If I were more inspired I would purchase it myself. As it stands I'm just enjoying the extracts!
 
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Jesstickle

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JFTD said:
K the pony in your avatar is clearly in front of the vertical. You must be a clueless and rubbish rider :D


eta, Jess, interesting article. If I were more inspired I would purchase it myself. As it stands I'm just enjoying the extracts!
Click to expand...

I'll send it to you when I get to work on Monday and I have your email in front of me if you want. If you don't dob me in!
 
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kerilli said:
Oh, I am. Tbh she was a bit too far in front of the vertical there, but still better than in rollkur position! ;) ;)
Click to expand...

Nah, this is too far in front of the vertical (it's closer to horizontal :D)... This pony protests vigorously against rollkur...

576034_540673960677_2075533603_n.jpg
 
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jesstickle said:
I don't mind. It's kind of my job ( I mean I do it for a job so I find it easy) and if people want papers I sort of understand. The last one I just found is a doozy. I am going to risk this and probably get banned but here are some excerpts

Case 1
A 6-year-old eventing mare was referred for overground endoscopy (Franklin et al. 2008) with a history of abnormal respiratory noise during the cross country phase. The noise was particularly obvious when the rider slowed the horse on the approach to a fence and the horse adopted a more flexed head and neck position. A resting endoscopic examination revealed no abnormalities. The overground endoscopy was performed during 3 bouts of exercise on an all weather gallop. The peak speed attained during the exercise test was 22 mph which is slightly faster than the average speed required for novice eventing (520 m/min ≈ 19 mph). During the exercise test the rider was instructed to vary the horse's outline from flexed to extended head positions. During the periods of head and neck flexion marked palatal instability leading to dorsal displacement of the soft palate was observed, but when the horse was ridden in a more extended head and neck position, palatal function appeared relatively normal

A 6-year-old showjumper was referred for overground endoscopy with a history of inspiratory noise during exercise. The horse was currently competing successfully and performance was not thought to be affected at present. Overground endoscopy was performed in a large arena and the rider was instructed to exercise the horse as normal. During exercise no abnormal respiratory noise was audible when the horse was ridden with an extended or mildly flexed head and neck position. In addition, no abnormalities were observed endoscopically. However, when ridden with a greater degree of head and neck flexion, the reported inspiratory noise became evident. This corresponded with dynamic bilateral arytenoid and vocal fold collapse

Several studies have suggested that head and neck flexion can induce or exacerbate dynamic URT collapse (Davidson et al. 2002; Strand et al. 2004, 2009; Franklin et al. 2006; Allen et al. 2007; Strand 2009). Cases 1 and 2 describe 2 different dynamic upper respiratory tract conditions in sport horses only present when the horse exercised with a flexed head and neck position. Upper respiratory tract obstructions as a result of head and neck flexion are principally a problem in sport horses in the UK, in contrast to racehorses which exercise with the head and neck extended

Head and neck flexion has been shown to affect upper airway flow mechanics during exercise, specifically resulting in increased inspiratory impedance and decreased inspiratory flows (Petsche et al. 1995). As this obstruction occurred on inspiration and not expiration the authors proposed that this was unlikely to occur solely because of the acute angle in the airflow pathway and was more likely due to greater compliance of the airways which would allow tissues to bulge into the upper airway (Petsche et al. 1995). This theory is supported by radiographic studies which show that head and neck flexion causes a reduction in the dorsoventral diameter of the nasopharynx. A radiographic study of 9 Thoroughbreds showed that the nasopharyngeal diameter in head and neck flexion was 14.4–36.4% (mean 20.8%) narrower than the nasopharyngeal diameter in head and neck extension (K.J. Allen and L.J. McCluskie, unpublished data). Similarly, Linford et al. (1983) found the mean nasopharyngeal diameter of 5 Thoroughbreds in head flexion was 4.9 cm compared with 7.5 cm in head and neck extension. Cehak et al. (2007) also measured the pharyngeal diameter of 10 horses (mixed breeds) at 3 head positions (flexed, natural, extended) and 3 head levels (lifted dorsally, midway, lowered ventrally). The smallest mean diameter was 3.0 cm found at the dorsal flexed position and the largest mean pharyngeal diameter 5.5 cm was at the extended midway position.

It goes on but I really oughtn't to be sharing it :eek:

Booboos. Pax and give this one a read. It's written by non idiots and everything :)
Click to expand...

Good for you for posting.
 
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Jesstickle

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JFTD said:
that'd be grand, ta. I won't tell if you don't post it on an open forum :D
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No worries. Just returning the favour ;)

Amazing what you can find when you know where to look isn't it? I must have been tired last night wasting my time searching pubmed for 'rollkur'. Bloody idiot! I should have known a little bit more lateral thinking than that would be required! :eek:
 
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jesstickle said:
No worries. Just returning the favour ;)

Amazing what you can find when you know where to look isn't it? I must have been tired last night wasting my time searching pubmed for 'rollkur'. Bloody idiot! I should have known a little bit more lateral thinking than that would be required! :eek:
Click to expand...

I am shocked at your suggestion that I might have infringed copyright laws at some point :eek: :D

hmmm, yes, I can't see rollkur being a particularly useful search term on pubmed!
 
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Jesstickle

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dafthoss said:
Jess I think I have a log in for wiley wait till I get back and I'll try find it for you ;)
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O good. Then I can read all the other papers the review cites without bankrupting myself! :)

I bought the one I actually linked to. It cost me £20. How is that for dedication?! :D
 
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dafthoss

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I'm in devon so I'll see if I can steal enough Internet to find it and send it to you :) at £20 a paper you won't have to bankrupt your self to read them all
 
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Many thanks for these links jesstickle! I certainly did not mean to be ungrateful to you for digging them up and I apologise if I came across this way. Nor am I looking to argue with anyone, although I will continue to disagree with views I don't agree with! :)

I am a bit stuck with the baby today (bad teething day) so I can't look at the studies in detail but unless I am mistaken they have diagrams of what they describe as the flexed neck position and it has nothing to do with rollkur. If it is the paper I remember the flexed position is the 'normal' on the vertical dressage position, so any conclusions of this paper apply to all dressage rather than being about rollkur.
 
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