Patrick Kittell..

[Jesstickle]

Nope. No diagrams Nice endoscopy pictures but that is all. And the showjumping one I think is particularly pertinent.

''instructed to exercise the horse as normal. During exercise no abnormal respiratory noise was audible when the horse was ridden with an extended or mildly flexed head and neck position. In addition, no abnormalities were observed endoscopically. However, when ridden with a greater degree of head and neck flexion, the reported inspiratory noise became evident. This corresponded with dynamic bilateral arytenoid and vocal fold collapse''

I'm more than happy to contact the authors to ask exactly what mildly flexed head and neck means but I would imagine, what with them being vets used to performance horses, that we would be talking about something approaching an outline by that point. Obviously the review isn't about hyperflexion so they aren't using the same words but I think it is interesting none the less.

dafthoss has just given me her athens account details so I'm off to get some more info!

 

[Booboos]

I knew I had seen some of this before, here it is: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=395421&highlight=petsche&page=8

It's Petsche who has the diagram of what they mean by 'flexed' and it's an 'on the bit' with the head on or slightly in front of the vertical - not rollkur at all.

 

[Jesstickle]

I didn't really expect it to mean rollkur as the study is nothing to do with hyperflexion. I still think it's a good jumping off point though and not irrelevant. Sometimes the exact studies you want don't exist yet and you have to fill the gaps with what is known until they do. Or do it yourself. I'm sure you know that. As I said, I am off to do some more digging around but I am having trouble getting into some of the vet conference lit at the mo. No problem though because fortunately I am friends with an equine vet and I will get her to get hold of it all for me Annoyingly, despite having an Athens login it's another one I can't read without purchasing it. I really don't care enough to spend another £20!

Perhaps the world dressage bodies should invest some money. There is tonnes of literature on race horses but very little for dressage.

FWIW I doubt very much, that given the fact putting the horse on the vertical can restrict it's airways, pulling the horses head beyond that point somehow offers miraculous relief rather than compounding the situation. Bit obviously I don't have an endoscope to investigate this so won't be doing my own research into it. Besides, I actually like my horses

 

[Jesstickle]

As an aside Booboos, where do you actually stand on the fact that rollkur is banned at FEI competitions and these photos seem to highlight an abuse of the rules?

It is imperative that stretching should be executed by unforced and non aggressive means. By
‘unforced’ it is meant that the rider is not permitted to use rough, or abrupt aids or apply
constant unyielding pressure on the horse’s mouth through a fixed arm and hand position. It is
the responsibility of the steward to intervene if these requirements are not respected.

The steward will intervene should he observe:
• Neck stretching achieved through forced, or aggressive riding
• The use of extreme flexion if it does not comply with the above
• A rider deliberately maintaining a sustained fixed head and neck carriage longer than
approximately ten minutes
• In cases when the horse is in a state of general stress and/or fatigue

''Following constructive debate at the FEI round-table conference at the IOC Headquarters in Lausanne today (9 February), the consensus of the group was that any head and neck position achieved through aggressive force is not acceptable. The group redefined hyperflexion/Rollkur as flexion of the horse’s neck achieved through aggressive force, which is therefore unacceptable. The technique known as Low, Deep and Round (LDR), which achieves flexion without undue force, is acceptable.''

The horse's head in those photos is definitely held there by force. It's an unsustainable posture for any horse to hold itself in and certainly doesn't comply with LDR diagrams of what can be achieved in an unforced way ( I understand other positions may be used besides those) but how can you possibly argue a horse isn't being forced into a position it physically can not maintain without the riders hands?!

 

[charlie76]

I actually think that these posts take the attention away from what is supposed to be a wonderful occasion.
From a set of pics all bell breaks loose and detracts everyone from the main focus.
whether you think it is right or wrong, the stewards and governing bodies had no issue with his warm up as he still competed.
Tbh, I don't think pictures are away of telling anything, all of those shots could have been taken in seconds.
instead of focusing on this, maybe everyone would be better of focusing on the brilliance of having the Olympic games here on our doorstep.

 

[Jesstickle]

I actually think that these posts take the attention away from what is supposed to be a wonderful occasion.
From a set of pics all bell breaks loose and detracts everyone from the main focus.
whether you think it is right or wrong, the stewards and governing bodies had no issue with his warm up as he still competed.
Tbh, I don't think pictures are away of telling anything, all of those shots could have been taken in seconds.
instead of focusing on this, maybe everyone would be better of focusing on the brilliance of having the Olympic games here on our doorstep.

What a strange thing to say. It is perfectly possible to have a poor opinion of the stewards in the dressage warm up at the games and to be thoroughly enjoying the rest of it.

I'm not actually allowed to post about how great all the other sport I am totally loving is in NL though as it's agains T&Cs I love sport. I follow multiple sports religiously. I don't take cheating lightly in any of them, and stewards do occasionally make mistakes in all sports so I'm not sure the argument they did nothing convinces me. Would you like me to list all the sports I have an interest in to put your mind at rest that I am not utterly fixated on dressage? It's quite long. Perhaps I should just list all the ones I play or have played instead? Or perhaps all the scandals I can remember that I've said 'hmm, I'm not totally cool with that actually'? Blood gate, Renault telling their driver to park in the wall, Dwayne Chambers etc etc.

Am I meant to find rollkur more palatable when it's on my doorstep for some reason? I'm not sure I follow your logic.

I also think you'll find that the rest of the non horsey country is blissfully unaware of this so I wouldn't worry too much that we're somehow ruining it. Mostly because the rest of the country finds dressage a bit lame and weird as far as I can work out and don't see why it should even be an Olympic sport. No idea where they get that idea from

 

[WoopsiiD]

Re:the south african pony pic.
Sadly Rollkur is not just a method used by dressage riders.
It has been seen in the showing world too. Big hulking brutes on tiny ponies bullying them into submission and all for a piece of bloody red ribbon.

 

[SusannaF]

To me, the reaction of Nelson in that video indicates neurological pain.

Do you think these riders would pay attention if they had their horses pain levels conveyed to them on a computer screen rather than via body language? It could be broadcast on a display board for the audience... Not that the poor horse isn't doing that anyway...

 

[touchstone]

And here's me thinking that dressage was all about schooling a horse to express its natural movements. The only time horses I've known stick their noses on their chests is to get to an itch, they certainly don't spend time showing off to the others like that.

Science can't measure things like compassion and empathy, both of which I feel is lacking in riders who will use rollkur.

 

[Booboos]

jesstickle: I am not sure but overall I think that respiration for racing is an entirely different business from respiration for dressage or SJ or hacking or other activities. Just because a neck position is optimal for racing and less optimal for other activities doesn't mean it is harmful during these other activities.

On the FEI rule I think it's a complete disaster. Either rollkur is harmful in which case it should be banned full-stop, or it is not in which case riders should be left alone. The rule is a cope out as a result of public pressure. It is vague (what is the difference between rollkur and LDR?), it is excessively subjective (how long is too long? How does one ensure consistency between different stewards?) and it encourages the kind of response one is getting now, i.e. individuals judging from photos that the FEI is not enforcing its own rules. A mess all around.

 

[SusannaF]

The FEI also failed to enforce their own rules in a similar case –*only the sport was reining.

http://susannaforrest.wordpress.com/2011/05/26/the-definition-of-abuse/

It ended in them saying that they would announce changes to reining rules, but the rules that they already had were already being broken... under the eyes of one of their stewards.

Who elects the FEI??

 

[perfect11s]

And here's me thinking that dressage was all about schooling a horse to express its natural movements. The only time horses I've known stick their noses on their chests is to get to an itch, they certainly don't spend time showing off to the others like that.

Science can't measure things like compassion and empathy, both of which I feel is lacking in riders who will use rollkur.

Yes +1

 

[Marydoll]

Agree with touchstone

 

[JFTDWS]

On the FEI rule I think it's a complete disaster. Either rollkur is harmful in which case it should be banned full-stop, or it is not in which case riders should be left alone. The rule is a cope out as a result of public pressure. It is vague (what is the difference between rollkur and LDR?), it is excessively subjective (how long is too long? How does one ensure consistency between different stewards?) and it encourages the kind of response one is getting now, i.e. individuals judging from photos that the FEI is not enforcing its own rules. A mess all around.

Rollkur is banned, full stop.

Difference between LDR and rollkur according to FEI rule:

rollkur is held by force. It is not acceptable to force a neck position.
LDR is not held by force. Diagrams also show "acceptable" LDR outlines, which do not correlate with those seen in rollkur or the photos of certain riders from Grenwich.

How long is too long?

Any fixed head position held for approx 10 minutes without release is too long.


Seems quite clear to me

 

[Vizslak]

FEI's latest response on FB
The FEI absolutely condemns all cruel or aggressive training methods. Rollkur is banned under FEI rules.

We completely agree that the recent pictures are unattractive, but we have spoken to the FEI Stewards and they have clearly confirmed that there were no breaches of the rules.

Rest assured that our Stewards are always there, on the ground, monitoring all training sessions. Any breaches of the rules will result in sanctions.

FEI Facebook is a wonderful platform for sharing and we value your comments. It is FEI policy not to delete posts, but please understand that any comments which include abusive language will be removed.

Thank you

 

[tristar]

'they don't accept abusive language,' but they allow abuse of horses, they must be funny people.

ten minutes in that position is far too long, i personally think you can ride a horse and put it long low and deep, without rollkuring it, depending on the degree, it is a different feel, with variations of tension or contact and importantly compliance or otherwise of the horse, personally i detest both.

i agree with booboos if its banned, ban it

 

[Booboos]

Rollkur is banned, full stop.

Difference between LDR and rollkur according to FEI rule:

rollkur is held by force. It is not acceptable to force a neck position.
LDR is not held by force. Diagrams also show "acceptable" LDR outlines, which do not correlate with those seen in rollkur or the photos of certain riders from Grenwich.

How long is too long?

Any fixed head position held for approx 10 minutes without release is too long.


Seems quite clear to me

I still think it is vague and difficult to enforce. How much force is too much force? You only have to look at discussions on simple contact and people have enormously diverging opinions on what it means. Also some horses are far more sensitive in the mouth than others and it may be easier to place them in hyperflexed positions, does that mean it's fine because there was no force?

As a steward how to you compare the diagrams with what you see? We have the benefits of photos which are moments in time, the steward is looking at numerous horses, in movement. Do stewards go around with the diagrams holding them up against the horses in the warm-up?

How do stewards police the 10 minute rule? Suppose you have 10 horses in the warm-up 3 of which are being worked in LDR, should the steward have 3 stopwatches that they start and stop each time each horse is hyperflexed? Suppose the horse momentarily lifts its head in the air, is this a proper break in the 10 minute rule or a resistance to the horror of rollkur?

 

[JFTDWS]

I still think it is vague and difficult to enforce. How much force is too much force? You only have to look at discussions on simple contact and people have enormously diverging opinions on what it means. Also some horses are far more sensitive in the mouth than others and it may be easier to place them in hyperflexed positions, does that mean it's fine because there was no force?

fair point, can't really answer that, though it's not really relevant where the force is extreme, as in the photos from Grenwich. Assuming we all agree that there is extreme force in those, which we may not

As a steward how to you compare the diagrams with what you see? We have the benefits of photos which are moments in time, the steward is looking at numerous horses, in movement. Do stewards go around with the diagrams holding them up against the horses in the warm-up?

Do you need diagrams to differentiate horses worked in front of you who are in a competitive outline compared to those evading the bit or those who are slopping along on the forehand? I don't, and this is merely an extension of that, surely?

How do stewards police the 10 minute rule? Suppose you have 10 horses in the warm-up 3 of which are being worked in LDR, should the steward have 3 stopwatches that they start and stop each time each horse is hyperflexed? Suppose the horse momentarily lifts its head in the air, is this a proper break in the 10 minute rule or a resistance to the horror of rollkur?

I think the key word in the timeframe rule is "approximately" - there's no need for stop watches to prove it's been a full ten minutes. If you're stewarding, you must have an idea of passage of time, roughly. If you notice a horse who has been in a fixed head carriage for a reasonable period of time, you can then keep an eye out for how long it's maintained. If you can only prove the horse has been worked for 9m30s, it is still approximately 10 minutes and should be dealt with appropriately.

No, momentary lifting can hardly be considered a break from the fixed head carriage - the release of pressure by the rider would have to be the fundamental key, surely?

 

[Munchkin]

Where the frigging hell is common sense in all of this nonsense?

 

[coss]

To me, rollkur has the highest point being the middle of the neck - undesired.
In a test you want the poll to be the highest point (which it can't be if the horse's head is btv)
In warm up and schooling exercises riders may encourage their horses to stretch into a longer frame - according the diagrams above I believe stretching long/low/down/LDR makes the withers the highest point.
A horse can't have its chin on its chest and keep the withers higher (can it?) - pic taken from f.e.i facebook page.

 

[Vizslak]

regardless booboos ''Rollkur is banned under FEI rules''...therefore when Rollkur is used it matters not how long for, a minute is too long as its banned.

 

[tallyho!]

The FEI need to stop kow towing to these super rich "modernists".

If only they paid attention to the fundamentals of classical riding and gave points only where it was expressed, they woud not be in such a mess. The judges need education perhaps?

 

[Vizslak]

Yes, I see Sylvia Loch spoke out about it this morning, fair play to her.

 

[Marydoll]

Yes, I see Sylvia Loch spoke out about it this morning, fair play to her.

Can you point me in the direction of her comments, was it via crc

 

[Oscar]

Surely the buck stops with the judges?!! Until they stop rewarding bad riding then the abuse will continue.

"Who will guard the guards"

 

[tallyho!]

Exactly horsey lad

 

[tallyho!]

Did she Viz, that's good. Where was it?

 

[JFTDWS]

tallyho, just copied this off one of the fb groups:

From Horse and Hound Blog.
Statement from Sylvia Loch:
I went to Greenwich and applaud the high standard of the British riders and many, many others. Unfortunately, not everyone rides humanely. By failing to intervene and thereby condoning the riding methods of Patrik Kittel and others like him during the warm-up, the FEI is letting us all down. It is bringing the discipline of dressage into disrepute by not adhering to its own standards, principles and codes of conduct. This is extremely disappointing when the eyes of the world are upon us and how we treat our horses.



I pretty much worship the ground she walks on

 

[tallyho!]

I know

Me too

 

[Vizslak]

sorry ^^^yes thats the comment I was referring to.