Patrick Kittell..

[tallyho!]

Thought she summed up the worlds feelings rather well don't you?

 

[JFTDWS]

Thought she summed up the worlds feelings rather well don't you?

She's quite eloquent, for a horsey type

 

[Vizslak]

I do and its very nice to see someone stand up and have the balls to say something

 

[Jesstickle]

I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell you all that SL is actually an idiot don't worry

Edit: as an aside, don't you think riders that use rollkur should provide us with some solid evidence it isn't detrimental to the horse? I bet they haven't done any peer reviewed studies into whether it is or not and yet they're quite happy to tell us it is good for the horse and doesn't harm the horse. Quite vehemently at times. Double standards perhaps asking that we prove it is cruel because our gut instinct says it is but not expecting them to prove it isn't when really all they are going on is empirical evidence and gut instinct themselves? Why do they have the right to do anything without evidence but we don't have the right to demand they stop. We seem to be at an impasse if you follow these demands for evidence to the logical conclusion.

No one can ever do ANYTHING ever again or stop doing ANYTHING ever again without providing properly peer reviewed evidence. Good job I'm not PM isn't it?

 

[Marydoll]

Unfortunately the FEI vet has just been on rudells round up, stating there has been no rollkur in the warm up along with someone from WHW, who never commented on the pics
I am very dissapointed in the stance by the FEI their head appears to be firmly in the sand

 

[JFTDWS]

I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell you all that SL is actually an idiot don't worry

Then I will have to throw my toys out of the pram, insult them rudely and flounce off the forum.

 

[mulledwhine]

Why are the judges not deducting points for this?

In not doing so they are sending out the message that it is acceptable

 

[Marydoll]

Id have to say the whole thing is leaving a bad taste, the fact theyre not even prepared to aknowledge this as an ongoing problem thats not resolved really has me worried for the sport and also for the many horses it will continue to affect

 

[asyouwish]

Its sickening and I would just love to see someone tie them into an un-natural position to make them more flexible. How would they like their legs tied behind their heads to make them able to flex and do the splits and better yoga etc? Im sure they wouldnt like it one little bit

They should be banned from world competitions, the proof is there, videos, pictures and still the FEI and Olympic rulemakers are allowing them to do it. Makes you totally ashamed to compete sometimes. I wonder if everyone who objects across the equestrian circuit STOPPED giving BD money by entering their shows and affiliating and boycotted if this would make a difference.

 

[Jesstickle]

Its sickening and I would just love to see someone tie them into an un-natural position to make them more flexible. How would they like their legs tied behind their heads to make them able to flex and do the splits and better yoga etc? Im sure they wouldnt like it one little bit

Kind of like they do to child gymnasts in certain nations. I don't really like the idea of that very much either but I'm probably just being overly soft and need to get some scientific evidence I remember a really harrowing interview with olga korbut about how she was constantly chided for everything she ate and ended up counting how many sips of water she had a day Loads of sports are bl00dy weird! Actually, that was a really interesting documentary. I wonder if I could find it online?

 

[Bikerchickone]

I just watched the FEI and WHW on Horse and Country too... What a waste of ten minutes of my life. They just trickled out all the same rubbish and the bright and bouncy interviewer didn't even bother asking the right questions. Wonder how much they were paid to give the FEI that public relations opportunity tonight? :rollseyes:

I agree with SL's statement they're bringing the sport into disrepute and will have no one to blame but themselves when eventually people start to boycott the perpetrators more forcefully.

Don't actually know why I expected any different from them

 

[dominobrown]

I too am very keen for people to not to be hysterical and to be able to differentiate between what is and isnt rollkur, LDR is a neccessary training method (actually that MOST horses would benefit from if done correctly day in day out) it makes the horse soft and supple over the back, I would rather see overbent horses working LDR properly through from behind any day of the week than a horse with its head stuck in the air doing as it wishes, its how I have trained my horses for years and always will do, it builds a strong supple horse. There are videos and pictures floating about that I have seen with horses in this position or indeed in a correct competition outline (poll high) with captions of Rollkur underneath, please when spreading the facts make sure people know what is and ISNT Rollkur. I dont believe Carl Hester works his horses in Rollkur but rather that he works them in an outline deemed to be 'overbent' which is totally fine and not Rollkur, I am willing to be corrected on this though

Sorry to dredge this up, but this is one of the most important points on this thread.
A long low outline is quite comfy for the horse and encourages stretch over the back and builds muscle. The pictures of Patrick Kittell warming up do show Rollkur in my opinion.
I work my horse LDR, but I ride with long reins (in a snaffle, with a nice light contact), the horse is stretching down, lifting his back, his ear a pricked. He is going fowards and is stretching down. Sometimes I will ask for inside or outside bend for him to stretch his body a bit, again not hauling him round.
If I hauled my horse anywhere I would be in A+E!! He makes any diacomfort very clear
I will try and find a picture of this, as its a handy tool for training horses, and it doesn't involve force, like rollkur.
p.s Try holding your next in the same position for 10 minutes, any position, just don't move it... uncomfortable?

 

[dominobrown]

This website shows head positions which are acceptable...
http://www.barnmice.com/group/horsejournals/forum/topics/fei-publishes-diagrams-of

None of them are Rollkur in my opinion.

 

[JFTDWS]

This website shows head positions which are acceptable...
http://www.barnmice.com/group/horsejournals/forum/topics/fei-publishes-diagrams-of

None of them are Rollkur in my opinion.

I agree, but I also don't think the photos correspond to any of those "acceptable" outlines, by a long way

 

[dominobrown]

I agree, but I also don't think the photos correspond to any of those "acceptable" outlines, by a long way

Well exactly- the drawings are acceptable, the pictures deffo don't compare! If I was a little more computer literate you could but them side by side to show comparison...

 

[JFTDWS]

Well exactly- the drawings are acceptable, the pictures deffo don't compare! If I was a little more computer literate you could but them side by side to show comparison...

We're singing from the same hymn sheet then.

If I were really computer literate I might superimpose the images in rollkur onto the acceptable outline images to demonstrate the differences. I'm not

 

[dominobrown]

Yeh me too! Sadly I can't
But if anyone with photoshop can... it would be quite useful to see the difference!

Ahh! Spot the difference....

 

[el_Snowflakes]

Im surprised that people are picking just on PK....as far as I have seen (and I work in dressage) everyone has at some time or another had a horse in a hyperflexed state.
I see nothing wrong in taking a horse who isnt listening to the seat or the bridle into a deep outline and saying hang on matey, listen.
IMHO I would rather see a horse go into rolkur for 2 mins than see someone kick hell out of one with spurs on, or belt it with a whip! The tap, tap, tap, nag, nag, nag of a schooling whip makes me want to do it to the rider!!

I dont like to hear/see equestrianism being portrayed as an elitist sport, or as a cruel sport, but I dont see how hyperflexion is seen as worse than horses with spur wheals, cut mouths, whip marks that are seen at some shows.

There are many many many worse things that could happen to a horse than a little hyperflexion in a workout.

Pootle, no, one is not limited to one concern apiece, nor am I commenting on every thread I find banal, as that is a waste of my time. Are you being deliberately pedantic or have you a bee in your bonnet?

I merely feel that there are a lot more things to fret over than a german rider hyperflexing for a few minutes in a warm up.


ETA: Im well aware that Rolkur is banned - however it is only banned when going over the length of time the FEI allow. Those who wish to use Rolkur in short bursts are allowed to do so, and as such I find nothing wrong with it.
I do disagree with constant hyperflexion. The video of PK warming up has been cut to make it seem that he is in constant rolkur, when he infact is not.

Because there are worse things that can happen to a horse does not make it ok. I can safely say I have never seen a horse at a show with the injuries you describe.

ETA: What makes you think 'belting' a horse, constant tapping with a whip or kicking the hell out of it with spurs on is the the alternative to rollkur? Sorry but your argument is very weak.

 

[_GG_]

Ah, the FEI are sticking to their guns then. They only have one option now with this event due to the poor decision to make their initial statement. That left them in a position which would mean admitting fault if they took action or facing the embarrassment of explaining themselves if they started to backtrack.

No...the FEI will be managing this problem, sticking to their guns by using the most passive statements they can, designed to control the situation until the Olympics is over. Then, they will have numerous discussions and decisions will be made on how to better manage this issue in the future.

This thread is extremely interesting, but all you have to do to remember how simple it is is to show a few videos to someone who knows nothing about it...or horses. My father said to me today, on hearing a discussion about Rollkur, "but I've seen you ride Fly when her head is low and behind the vertical...do you do use this method? So, I showed him some clips. A few of different riders using Rollkur, to which he became quite angry, then the clip of me riding Fly that I posted on page 13 of this thread. He actually commented that Fly looked more relaxed when she dropped her head down...then commenting that it looked like she was having a good stretch and that there was no pulling on the reins.

That is how I define the issue of Rollkur at its most basic level. It's using a horses desire to evade pain in order to create submission.

It is the judges that will ultimately determine the future use of Rollkur. Fingers crossed Charlotte, Carl and Laura will bring home medals...including Gold. Would love it if Richard could too
If we win team and individual, it will be the first time in 12 years that Anky has not won. It will be a clear sign that you do not need to use these methods to win the big medals and so long as the trend continues in that desired fashion...the rest will take care of itself.

If you start making the issue about long term effects on the horse, you will ultimately detract from the main and very basic issue that it is simply wrong to knowingly inflict pain on any animal.

Sylvia Loch has done wonders today...but we need more people to comment who can stand on their own two feet and be counted.

It will take an extremely brave big name in dressage to come out and publicly support the movement against Rollkur. I hope it happens, but I don't think it will!

 

[Vizslak]

yes I was not for a minute suggesting Kittels horse is not in Rollkur, just that other images being bandied around are giving a false impression. I'll be brave here as I have photobucket open, here is my lad working LDR (totally different)

ets, infact this is quite high for a normal LDR position

 

[tallyho!]

Exactly good on SL. I posted the photos on BAPSH - a lot of people on there training in Portugal and Spain where classical is pretty much the only way (not that I support everything they do there by the way) and not one person even commented.

I did wonder if many of them had been protesting against it and have got bored trying. Many compete BD though so I was really surprised.

Why aren't people who have a bit of influence speaking up???!!!

 

[Stilldreamin']

This denial based on photos- moment on time blah blah is ridiculous. Weren't they watching miss Cornelissen ride into the ring?! Thousands of spectators and probably millions of online/tv viewers watched her work that horse with his nose in his chest!

 

[Booboos]

What did everyone think of Rubi's test then? He seemed clearly BTV to me in parts of the test (and was marked down for them) despite being 'the right' breed and having been trained in 'the right' method?

tallyho!: my experience of much of Portuguese and Spanish riding is that they start the horses quite early on, with no hacking, very strong bits and riders are mainly strong men who use their hands a lot. They also seem to progress to advanced moves far too quickly before any of the basics are established so you might have a horse that can piaffe, but it can't do a 20m circle without support from the hands.

jesstickle: ironically the few studies on this issue have been funded by the Dutch, despite the 'outcry' no one else has bothered to spend any money on this. It's a very dangerous step to require the 'accused' to prove one's innocence simply because others have a gut feeling there is something wrong. Remember that over time people have had a gut feeling that there is something wrong with you if your skin is black or yellow, if your religion in Christian, or Muslim, or Hindu, if your sexuality is promiscuous or homosexual, etc. For anyone who thinks these are attitudes of the past there are current examples in the US where people have cited as their defence in the killing of lesbians their disgust of the practices! If individuals are satisfied with unexamined and unproven gut feelings as the basis of their opinion, so be it, but they are not sufficient for limiting the behaviour of others. Otherwise my gut feelings about this and similar threads on rollkur is that they are pretty disgusting and shameful, so let's rely on my feelings to ban all these discussions!

 

[dominobrown]

Well said booboos- I agree.

 

[Jesstickle]

Booboos I would liken it more to introducing a new surgical technique to the world or a new drug or something along those lines. Likening it to racism is, I feel, very crass of you and belittles those who have been victims of such atrocities. Being a holocaust survivor isn't quite the same as being PK is it? If you want a new method, in scientific terms, to become the norm it is entirely up to you to prove its efficacy and safety. If you want to make this about science anky et al need to follow the scientific rules too.

 

[tallyho!]

tallyho!: my experience of much of Portuguese and Spanish riding is that they start the horses quite early on, with no hacking, very strong bits and riders are mainly strong men who use their hands a lot. They also seem to progress to advanced moves far too quickly before any of the basics are established so you might have a horse that can piaffe, but it can't do a 20m circle without support from the hands[/QOUTE]

There is much I disagree with and perhaps I speak for very few people who don't treat horses like this. The people I have met, wait until horses are 5 or 6 to start as they know how late they are to mature. Some back at 3 which is normal but I imagined that members of that association would be against rollkur or at least had something to say. Clearly, I was very wrong.

The places you are talking about are the ones people don't know how to avoid. Particularly foreign buyers. They see a nice Spanish horse that can piaffe and assume its an advanced horse. How wrong they are. Sadly, these are the ones experts in this country take the inexperienced to see! They don't get shown that it lives in a dark stable most of its life and piaffe is the only thing it can do!

But anyway, I am not here to discuss the intricacies of Spanish horses. I wanted to raise awareness of rollkur in the Olympics.

 

[perfect11s]

What did everyone think of Rubi's test then? He seemed clearly BTV to me in parts of the test (and was marked down for them) despite being 'the right' breed and having been trained in 'the right' method?

tallyho!: my experience of much of Portuguese and Spanish riding is that they start the horses quite early on, with no hacking, very strong bits and riders are mainly strong men who use their hands a lot. They also seem to progress to advanced moves far too quickly before any of the basics are established so you might have a horse that can piaffe, but it can't do a 20m circle without support from the hands.

jesstickle: ironically the few studies on this issue have been funded by the Dutch, despite the 'outcry' no one else has bothered to spend any money on this. It's a very dangerous step to require the 'accused' to prove one's innocence simply because others have a gut feeling there is something wrong. Remember that over time people have had a gut feeling that there is something wrong with you if your skin is black or yellow, if your religion in Christian, or Muslim, or Hindu, if your sexuality is promiscuous or homosexual, etc. For anyone who thinks these are attitudes of the past there are current examples in the US where people have cited as their defence in the killing of lesbians their disgust of the practices! If individuals are satisfied with unexamined and unproven gut feelings as the basis of their opinion, so be it, but they are not sufficient for limiting the behaviour of others. Otherwise my gut feelings about this and similar threads on rollkur is that they are pretty disgusting and shameful, so let's rely on my feelings to ban all these discussions!

So basicly dont think for yourself wait until an expert tells you what to think!!!!

 

[Jesstickle]

Let me elaborate my reasoning as I was on my phone earlier but I'm not ensconced safely in the lab and can type a bit easier.

I work at a diagnostics company.We have a new technology my CEO invented. We think it's really neat, better than what is out there at the moment. That's our gut instinct from working with it every day.

However, before we are allowed to go forth and tell the world to use our test and sell it to people we have to, rightly, prove our gut feeling is correct. There is potential harm involved ( someone might get the wrong diagnosis and receive delayed or no treatment) so we have to go through clinical trials to prove efficacy and safety.

In the world you propose Booboos, we could sell our test, confidently assuring people it works a treat and there is chance of us getting it wrong. And it would be up to the rest of the world to prove that wasn't the case. Doesn't that seem a little off to you? Imagine if we were wrong; the consequences whilst we waited for someone somewhere to decide it was worth their while to do a study in to it.

Lets try another one. A doctor somewhere thinks it would be beneficial to all children to remove half of one of their legs at birth. That's his theory. Lets imagine he has a reasonably sound reason for thinking this. Do we just let him go off and do this or do we impose rules on him? Do we ask him to provide a reason for his thinking, if we can see merit in his thought process he then has to ask us permission to perform a trial which is strictly regulated and present the data to us. The onus is his to prove this theory is right. We don't wait for the rest of the world to be so horrified they prove him wrong.

That is how science works. We aren't talking about someone's innate sexuality or race, which they have no choice in, we're talking about someone's theory they have concocted. They are two very fundamentally different things and you can't possibly say singling someone out for something they can not possibly change about themselves is the same as singling someone out for a belief they hold. If you want to make it about science that's up to you.

I just object to an obvious breach of rules, as previously mentioned

 

[Fidgety]

This article goes to some length to describe the effects of Rollkur on the horse. I'm aware that it might not be seen as 'scientific enough' in order to satisfy - but as this article points out 'Pain cannot be scientifically measured', I'd hope that for any who might be in doubt that thought alone would be enough to give food for thought :-(

http://scienceofmotion.com/documents/hyper-flexion.html

Interestingly, the article finishes with the words

"If 10 or 50 or 100 spectators stand up and turn their back on the ring or even leave the ring area, perhaps riders, trainers, judges, stewards and even the governing body might realize that if they do not respect horses, they may have to pack and go because a very large body of real horse persons will not let go. "

 

[Booboos]

Booboos I would liken it more to introducing a new surgical technique to the world or a new drug or something along those lines. Likening it to racism is, I feel, very crass of you and belittles those who have been victims of such atrocities. Being a holocaust survivor isn't quite the same as being PK is it? If you want a new method, in scientific terms, to become the norm it is entirely up to you to prove its efficacy and safety. If you want to make this about science anky et al need to follow the scientific rules too.

I didn't say that PK's treatment is similar in gravity and harm caused to holocaust survivors (and frankly I would suspect this is a wilfull misinterpratation of what I am trying to say, as what I am trying to say is a very simple, well known, liberal position on the justification of the restrictions of liberty). I am saying that the reasoning used by the Nazis to kill Jews (and many others) which was basically "I don't like you" is insufficient ground for restricting the liberty of others, and this goes for all cases where gut feeling is used as in the PK case.

Anky et al have proved the efficacy of the technique through their success, their horses tend to do very well, they also tend to have long careers and not seem to suffer from any problems, not any more than horses in general. How much more positive proof do you need? But in any case, I am not trying to convince you to practice rollkur (which is the case that needs positive evidence), merely not to stop others from doing so.