Poor people

[Arzada]

Two more dog attacks on children in the last few days https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-60931620

The 2yo boy attacked by by one or more dogs on Monday died today.

Two children and a woman were injured in a dog attack on Saturday. The children are stable in hospital

 

[skinnydipper]

I don't think I argued for banning anything.
.

Sorry, ycbm. What was your suggestion?

 

[CorvusCorax]

I'd personally try to see if we can address what is so wrong in people's lives that they need an aggressive/poorly-tempered dog that looks a certain way, to bolster their ego.
Make it unprofitable/remove any incentives for breeding and selling dogs willy nilly.
However that may involve sweeping changes which would hit a lot of backyard breeders **that's not faaair** apparently.
But hitting people in the pocket is a huge deal. Rat them to the taxman.
Educate people on interactions between children and dogs.
Educate people on doing background/research on different types of dog and teaching them not to throw an unknown dog into a busy/noisy/active/stressy household.
Basic courses on dog behaviour/body languages and breed suitability.
Vets and dog trainers need to get on the case as well.

 

[ycbm]

Sorry, ycbm. What was your suggestion?

I didn't make one, I wouldn't be so presumptuous, I haven't owned a dog since I was a child. I just look at the statistics and see something that clearly needs change.

I think CC has made some decent sounding suggestions.
.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Having responded at length to multiple consultations over the years, you can imagine how well my decent sounding suggestions have gone down, sigh.

 

[[153312]]

IMHO We need:

> licensing to keep any animals

> Further licensing of animals BEFORE they are allowed to breed

> universal courses on animal and child care in the curriculum as part of the PSHE/personal development/whatever TF they're calling that bs now.

> Child and animal cruelty/neglect sentencing/consequences actually worth the paper they are written on

(And actually sensible education on drugs, sex, alcohol and relationships, but that is probably a whole 'nother debate).

 

[Clodagh]

I'd personally try to see if we can address what is so wrong in people's lives that they need an aggressive/poorly-tempered dog that looks a certain way, to bolster their ego.
Make it unprofitable/remove any incentives for breeding and selling dogs willy nilly.
However that may involve sweeping changes which would hit a lot of backyard breeders **that's not faaair** apparently.
But hitting people in the pocket is a huge deal. Rat them to the taxman.
Educate people on interactions between children and dogs.
Educate people on doing background/research on different types of dog and teaching them not to throw an unknown dog into a busy/noisy/active/stressy household.
Basic courses on dog behaviour/body languages and breed suitability.
Vets and dog trainers need to get on the case as well.

They sound sensible, but impossible! I think all dogs should be licensed and the fee pay for dog wardens who have powers.
Our whole civilisation has gone instant gratification with everything, not just dogs. I’m sounding defeatist because I can’t see anyone has any Will to learn about things, wait five minutes or consider a consequence.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Yep, everything is 'too hard', no one is willing to change and then we wring our hands when this shit keeps happening. Nothing will change when no one has the will for change.
No one likes new rules when they first come in, but everyone gets used to them eventually.
There are dog licences in at least one part of the UK and people do end up in court.

 

[[153312]]

DWA licensing is quite effective from what I've seen in the herp hobby - not sure why we couldn't just do a broader version of that tbh. With input from the German system where iirc you have to do a test (not sure on that).

Is it perfect, no.
Would it be perfect if it was extended, no.
Would it be "too hard"....imho, no.


But it would be something.

i seriously don't know how people can just say these things are too hard, when kids are literally being killed.

 

[skinnydipper]

Microchipping has been mandatory since 2016 but it is not happening. Dog warden is frequently picking up dogs who are not chipped.

I can't see the people who don't microchip their dogs buying a dog licence.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Microchipping should be done by the breeder, not the purchaser.

If they didn't buy a licence, they would be fined and/or taken to court, like they would do if they did not pay their TV licence. Like I say, it already happens in one jurisdiction in the UK.

 

[[153312]]

Microchipping has been mandatory since 2016 but it is not happening. Dog warden is frequently picking up dogs who are not chipped.

I can't see the people who don't microchip their dogs buying a dog licence.

You shouldn't have to buy it. You should have to earn it, somehow; that way it doesn't discriminate on class or income and would be more effective than just filling in an online form and paying a fee then going off and buying a dog from a Byb out of a petrol station anyway.

 

[CorvusCorax]

There are discounts for people on benefits, pensioners and neutered dogs.

 

[skinnydipper]

Do you have to provide the dog's microchip id number to obtain a licence?

"The dog, now being held by Belfast City Council wardens, was not micro chipped, and the owner has not yet come forward."

https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/belfast-news/belfast-family-left-traumatised-after-23451001

 

[CorvusCorax]

As far as I am aware, yes. If you look at that list, yes, the geography and population is much smaller, but as far as I can see there is only one fatality in the region where dog licences still exist in the timeframe.
Also, and this is an aside, but a lot of people do not do an exhaustive all-over check for a chip, with multiple scanners.

At the end of the report says that the attack happened at business premises? Anyway if there is no licence, if they ever link the dog to someone, they will get done for that.

 

[skinnydipper]

At the end of the report says that the attack happened at business premises? Anyway if there is no licence, if they ever link the dog to someone, they will get done for that.

I think they were walking to mini golf.

I was going to ask what the penalty is for not having a licence but I see it is £50 if paid within 14 days.

 

[Gloi]

Not entirely serious but charge licence fees for dogs by the kilogram .
Any unchipped , unlicensed dog found to be pts.

 

[Clodagh]

Microchipping should be done by the breeder, not the purchaser.

If they didn't buy a licence, they would be fined and/or taken to court, like they would do if they did not pay their TV licence. Like I say, it already happens in one jurisdiction in the UK.

How would you police it though? So if I bought a pup and took it to the vets and it’s not chipped, what would they do?

 

[HashRouge]

You really, really can't infer anything from that list about the relevance of breed in the likelihood of a dog attacking. Bite incidents, never mind attacks and fatalities, will always be hugely multi fauceted things and trying to boil it down to something as simple as breed just is silly. Everything from age of the person, location, dog's training, human's behaviour, and yes, breed as well, and many, many, many other things is going to be involved.

I mean, you can certainly infer that bulldog-type breeds are more likely to be involved in fatal attacks than any other type of dog. It's right there in the data! I think we can also infer that they shouldn't be trusted around small children...

Obviously it's not as simple as just saying "bulldog-type breeds are more aggressive than any other breed". For a start, certain bulldog breeds appear frequently on the list, while others don't appear at all (i.e. a fair few staffies, pit bulls and American Bulldogs, but no boxers). However, you can certainly infer that certain bulldog-type breeds are more dangerous/ more likely to attack and/ or that they are more likely to cause serious injury or death than other types of dogs.

Now, I recognise that part of this will be because these breeds can be seen as "status dogs" and so may have their aggressive tendencies encouraged rather than receive the correct training, but I would think that it is inevitable that any dog bred for things like bull or bear baiting is likely to have certain aggressive traits inherent to their breeding. I know other dog breeds can be aggressive too, but the bulldog-type breeds also have the significant bite size/ strength that makes them particularly dangerous. I.e. jack russells have a bit of a reputation for being aggressive and I would never trust one round a small child either, but it is much smaller, has a much smaller jaw, and is much easier for an adult to tackle if it did attack (not saying you wouldn't get a nasty bite for your troubles!).

I appreciate what you were trying to say in your post - i.e. it is not just about breed - but it is naive to suggest that we can't infer anything at all from the fact that the vast majority of the dogs on that list are bulldog-types.

 

[CorvusCorax]

How would you police it though? So if I bought a pup and took it to the vets and it’s not chipped, what would they do?

It's not for me to police as I'm not the police, but I'm sure whoever was policing it would do so in the way it's policed perfectly well in other places.
It is an offence in GB but it's not being policed, perhaps people should be asking their elected representatives why/voting for better ones!

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

The problem is that you can bring in tests and licenses and mandatory education classes, but these people are intentionally buying/training unstable dogs for status and 'power', or to be threatening - they don't want a dog, they want a threat and a weapon. So they'll go to your course and still buy a XL Bully and train it to 'protect the family/house'.

To a degree I can understand this, although I don't agree with it. I have said before on this forum, that were I to get a dog I would want something that would make people think twice about approaching me as I like to walk in more remote areas of the Downs, and feel nervous to go by myself. I would make sure to train the dog to be balanced and to not have an ounce of aggression, but the other person wouldn't know that. That being said, would I buy a breed bred to fight with a bite that they won't release instictively? No. I used to be very for bully breeds due to personal expeirences of them - we had two of the most lovely staffies as children, however due to the emerging quality of the owners it does need governing. A person needs a fighting breed of dog just about as much as they need an automatic rifle - it's an unecessary level of force.

- I would say that you need a license for all breeding dogs including temperament tests, all breeders are licensed in themselves and all litters registered with a central body (not a breed body, just a central database).
- Make it as mandatory as it is with sheep to track all dog ownership movements, give dog wardens more funding and have them out with microchip testers - incorrect details or no chip, £250 on the spot fine. Hugely increased power to dog wardens.
- Anything that has been mutilated (ears/tail) without a working dog license is an instant £5000 fine and a confiscation of the dog, regardless of whether it's a rescue or not, we shouldn't be importing these dogs as it makes it seem like it's okay for some and people copy. Licenses only considered for classic field working breeds and not protection dog types.
- ALL bully breeds, fighting breeds eg: chow chow and terriers to undergo temperament tests with aforementioned governing body, anything that fails is an instant dispatch if the owner is incapable of handling it or unwilling to muzzle and work with a central list of approved dog trainers. Unsavoury but eventually these lines will cease.
- Give dog groomers the ability to report, with photographic evidence, to aforementioned central body for dogs with a large amount of mats (doodles), horrendous nails or other neglect for an instant £1000 fine unless dog only recently rescued/acquired.


ETA: On the staffy front, I am sure the breed has been heavily influenced by pitbulls now. The staffy types of old were short and squat and were the most even tempered, good family dogs I have ever come across. Now I see more and more of the tall, leggy, tendency to be a bit unbalanced types.. Has anyone else noticed this?

 

[CorvusCorax]

Just out of interest, is anyone against these suggested measures because **they** might have to pay a licence/do a course?

 

[ycbm]

You shouldn't have to buy it. You should have to earn it, somehow; that way it doesn't discriminate on class or income and would be more effective than just filling in an online form and paying a fee then going off and buying a dog from a Byb out of a petrol station anyway.

If they don't buy it, how can it be provided without people who don't own dogs having to pay taxes to finance it?
.

 

[skinnydipper]

Not only would I be happy to do a course, I think the licence fee should be higher.

If people think that £12.50 a year or £5 for those on benefits is too much to expect some people to pay, how on earth are those people going to afford to feed the dog and cover vet bills/insurance payments. Oh, I forgot - GoFundMe.

It costs me over £40 to walk through the door of my local vet and once inside everything for a big dog costs more - drugs increase in cost because mostly the dose is mg/kg.

 

[silv]

Not entirely serious but charge licence fees for dogs by the kilogram .
Any unchipped , unlicensed dog found to be pts.

A bit unfair on the dog, not it's fault that the idiot owner didn't bother to get it licensed or chipped. If that had been the case my lovely rescue dog Panda wouldn't be here through no fault of her own.
Here in NZ it is compulsory for dogs to be registered with the council and chipped. 95% of the dogs causing trouble or are stray belong to people who don't worry about the law and don't bother to register or chip them. So really it does not work.
Bit like the gun licensing laws, it's not the ones with the licenses you have to worry about, but the ones owning firearms without.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Would it work if...there was actually a big deterrent to not doing it? What are the fatality rates due to dog attacks in NZ?

 

[fiwen30]

When I was born, my parents lived in a big American motor home, and were travelling and working across Europe. They had a big female GSD who they absolutely adored, but which was also encouraged to be ‘guardy’ of the motor home, for security/warning/protection as they travelled. She wouldn’t let anyone onto the bus if she didn’t like the look of them. My mum told me they had to remove and restrain her at every border crossing, as she went off the rails when the officers had to board and check the bus.

After I was born, I think there was only about 6 months before the GSD was PTS. Mum said she was ‘jealous’ of the new baby - she would stand and growl at the cot. I think it put into perspective for them that this much loved, adored, and trusted dog, which they had created these behaviours in, was actually bloody terrifying, and very dangerous. I don’t think there’s a single picture of me with that dog in it, because mum kept as much distance as possible between us both.

I’m told that my dad, on the other hand, never believed the GSD’s behaviour towards an infant baby to be that concerning, and I’m not sure he ever forgave my mum for insisting that it was PTS. So I guess there’s always going to be morons, I suppose.

 

[[153312]]

If they don't buy it, how can it be provided without people who don't own dogs having to pay taxes to finance it?
.

Are you saying only dog owners should feel safe from dogs? Shouldn't everyone?

 

[milliepops]

as a non dog owner i don't want to fork out to cover the expenses of a dog licensing system.
it's not like paying for public goods like schools or libraries which i also don't (now) use.

 

[Goldenstar]

My experience in the welfare sector leaves with depressing view that increased regulation would only be accepted by those who don’t need it the problem people would just ignore it