PTS

[ycbm]

They always heavily sedate the horse first, which should be mandatory on welfare grounds, but bizarrely and sadly it doesn't seem to be.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here TP? Why do you think it's necessary to sedate horses on welfare grounds to shoot them?
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[scats]

I’ve had 5 of my own put to sleep and been there for countless others.
All my own have had the injection and the vets have been nothing but compassionate and caring. They explained everything they are going to do and treated the horse they were dealing with with tremendous kindness.

The vet who put Diva to sleep knelt down and kissed her afterwards, then gave me the biggest hug. I’m not really a hugger, but it was a lovely thought and I accepted and appreciated that act of comfort.
She had two students with her who had come to watch (absolutely fine by me, the next generation of vets need to learn) and one got very upset and had to sit down for a while.

 

[ester]

Our vet still had a gun, there was no way the horse could wait for the knackerwoman to do it. Vet very experienced and happy to do so so not sure why that wasn't fair on the horse, vet or owner. Vet's preference, owner's preference and a horse out of pain ASAP.

Given that our main vet retired last year I wasn't sure if any of the others could as I know fewer do now.

 

[ycbm]

You wouldn't wait for a knacker if the vet doesn't have a gun and the need is immediate, though, would you (one) Ester? They would just do the injection, wouldn't they?

I wouldn't expect any vet now to go to the bother of gun licensing, safe gun storage, and the dangers of gun owning when they have the drugs available to do it.
.

 

[ester]

No, not sure how I suggested that would be the case?

I was more replying to 'I'd only have a knacker shoot a horse not a vet' and letting you know that our vets still shoot and are happy to do so, though I was surprised they still did as you queried whether vets still did.

 

[paddy555]

in an emergency we have around 6 horse vets who come out. There is no choice, it is just the first and nearest one that can be sent. I guess vets must carry sufficient drugs in their cars at all times to PTS a horse in an emergency. I cannot see that 6 vets would carry guns in their cars at all times.

 

[ester]

I'm not sure anyone else in the practice can (3 vet practice) and she possibly doesn't have it with her all the time but if you're emergency out of hours on call heading to a colic you probably chuck it in the truck.

I'm a bit confused as it seems like I might have said something about preferences in an emergency- I maybe didn't word it well? if there isn't a choice it's not a decision is it you just PTS how the vet can but I have no issue with a vet shooting if they don't.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I don't know of any vets who would. Do any of them still have a gun?

Not that I know of. I think those who did have probably retired now. Our 1st horse had a field accident, young vet attended wasn't certain that he had broken his spine, thought it could be bruising, wanted to give him time to recover. A few hours later, the decision was made to pts. The Farmer whose land he was on arranged for the knackerman to come out, even then 40 yrs ago, the vet wasn't asked to shoot the horse. Mind you that might have been the farmer's sensibilities, I suppose. The vet was a young woman and farmer had daughters around our age..

Much more recently a horse was severely injured by a car on a local road, around midnight. After some non-productive phone calls, she was shot by the local terrier man who was the nearest person who was licensed to do the job. No-one could find a vet who could get there.

 

[paddy555]

I'm not sure anyone else in the practice can (3 vet practice) and she possibly doesn't have it with her all the time but if you're emergency out of hours on call heading to a colic you probably chuck it in the truck.

I'm a bit confused as it seems like I might have said something about preferences in an emergency- I maybe didn't word it well? if there isn't a choice it's not a decision is it you just PTS how the vet can but I have no issue with a vet shooting if they don't.

I didn't take it about preferences I was just wondering about practicalities. Leaving on an out of hours to colic is pretty obvious but if you are on your normal day of vaccinations and abscesses and get called away to PTS an emergency it may not be practical.

I have no issue with a vet shooting if that is the way they personally wish to PTS and think they are better at it than injecting. In theory I would always go with how that particular vet wished to do it. Efficiency not method,

 

[Tiddlypom]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here TP? Why do you think it's necessary to sedate horses on welfare grounds to shoot them?
.

Both the vets at my equine practice and the neighbouring one, when they used to use the gun, would sedate the horses before shooting them.

Belt and braces, gold standard if you like, in case the horse threw its head around at the last minute.

 

[criso]

Both the vets at my equine practice and the neighbouring one, when they used to use the gun, would sedate the horses before shooting them.

Belt and braces, gold standard if you like, in case the horse threw its head around at the last minute.

While I see that, my choice to go with shooting was knowing my horse and how much he hated and fought sedation. I didn't want his last moments to be unpleasant.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Both the vets at my equine practice and the neighbouring one, when they used to use the gun, would sedate the horses before shooting them.

Belt and braces, gold standard if you like, in case the horse threw its head around at the last minute.

Yet some people choose to have their horse shot because they are needle phobic. Some horses hate the feeling of sedation and will fight it. Ours always go with their head in a bucket of feed, that tends to keep their heads still.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

When my lad was PTS I had to sign a form and have the passport checked for the food chain part being signed.

I was then asked again for permission which I gave and then he was sedated and the cannula put in. He was given another round of sedation then led out the stable to the area for him to lie down. He was cuddled and given the final dose after which the vet took the lead rope. He lay down then the vet let me cuddle him and he went.

At no point despite how distraught I was at having to our my soul horse of 18yrs down did I think anything the vet did paperwork wise or action wise was inappropriate. Yes signing stuff could be classed as distasteful but at the end of the day my boy was elderly and now in pain and needed his long sleep so popping my name and signature in a bit of paper was the least of my concerns that day. I was also sent a standard bill requesting it be paid in the usual time within the week of the PTS, I ignored that as it was a standard bill format. It was paid by my mother from my account the next day anyway so the bill was cleared before I got it in the post. I still have it along with everything else including some of his teeth and whole tail.

Maybe your mannerism on that day contributed to how this all went down for you, considering how you have been in this thread it wouldn’t be a far stretch. My vets sent me a lovely card with all the vets and nurses signatures on it which I have treasured and have on my mantelpiece today and he was out down 2.5yrs ago now. Anyone else I know their vets have been respectful and lovely. They hate putting animals down as well and it’s the main reason I couldn’t be a vet TBF.

Yes you are hurting, we all do after we have to make that decision and then live with it after but going after your vet for it isn’t in good taste nor will it change anything for you.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

Just a small aside, if anyone here ever wants to talk though choices or anything to do with pts, drop me a message and I'll try to help.
Over the years I've said goodbye to a number of mine, and up till 2 years ago I was a BHS friend at the end, so again have been out to quite a number of other people.
It's never an easy decision to elect to pts, unfortunately in some situations its taken away from you as pts is the only way out from a fatal injury, trauma or sudden colic etc.
It's hard, but part of ownership, talking to someone can sometimes help, some prefer not to x

 

[paddy555]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here TP? Why do you think it's necessary to sedate horses on welfare grounds to shoot them?
.

I'm a bit lost. Because of your earlier post and experience?

 

[hopscotch bandit]

Both the vets at my equine practice and the neighbouring one, when they used to use the gun, would sedate the horses before shooting them.

Belt and braces, gold standard if you like, in case the horse threw its head around at the last minute.

Yep having had my youngster shot twice (i was in hearing distance but not sight of horse thank God) I strongly believe this to be best.

 

[hopscotch bandit]

I guess vets must carry sufficient drugs in their cars at all times to PTS a horse in an emergency. I cannot see that 6 vets would carry guns in their cars at all times.

But they are captive bolt and not actual firearms that they use aren't they? So maybe this is different, I'm not sure? Wouldn't they need a licence for firearms?

 

[windand rain]

I would prefer them shot but obviously if a vet was there you wouldn't wait for the knackerman but given an accident or a severe colic then the knackerman would be called as in most cases he can be there at the same speed as a vet
My vet when he used a gun used a pistol not captive bolt. so did need a gun license.
Our local knackerman has been shooting horses since he was 13 he is in his 60s he proudly told me in all that time he has only ever had to shoot 3 twice. He is the best horseman I have ever known he even managed to get the head shy horse to lower his head in his arms while he was talking to him and stroking his face it was wonderful to see how caring he was

 

[YorksG]

Our knacker woman uses a free bullet, not a captive bolt. My understanding is that captive not guns are not much in use any more.
The only time we've had one be difficult at the end was the previous appy and she settled with me holding her head, the only one I've actually been next to when shot, out of a fair few.

 

[hopscotch bandit]

One of the more well known Equune Hospitals in the Midlands back in 1999 had a contraption like a bicycle pump or that was the way it was described to me by the groom. She said it was held with one hand and the palm of the other slammed against the end firing into the head. She said they used it a lot on racecourses - I think this place attended race meetings quite a lot.

Not long after Mum called me to say the hospital wanted me to ring them. I made the call and they told me my horse hadn't responded and needed to be pts. I can remember being more upset about the method than the horse, although i was in deep shock at the time but managed to blurt out that I didn't want that contraption anywhere near my horse and I wanted lethal injection. I was over 60 miles away but to the best of my knowledge Biggles did go with a needle in the end.

P.s I am on my phone as no internet connection at work arrggh so another username

 

[Tiddlypom]

Yet some people choose to have their horse shot because they are needle phobic. Some horses hate the feeling of sedation and will fight it. Ours always go with their head in a bucket of feed, that tends to keep their heads still.

While I see that, my choice to go with shooting was knowing my horse and how much he hated and fought sedation. I didn't want his last moments to be unpleasant.

In that case, I'm sure that the vet would have been open to discussion and would have omitted the sedation for a needle shy horse.

It worked very well for my horses that went by the sedation/shooting route. They weren't needle shy.

 

[criso]

In that case, I'm sure that the vet would have been open to discussion and would have omitted the sedation for a needle shy horse.

It worked very well for my horses that went by the sedation/shooting route. They weren't needle shy.

Yes, as I said I discussed the method with my vet and why I was opting to shoot and he offered but it was easier to get one person to do everything.

 

[Michen]

Yep my vet still has a gun and it’s his preferred method.

I wouldn’t sedate either, I’d rather they went with their head in a bucket rather than an injection being the last thing they properly have.

 

[ycbm]

But they are captive bolt and not actual firearms that they use aren't they? So maybe this is different, I'm not sure? Wouldn't they need a licence for firearms?

Most use firearms now, not captive bolt guns. Mine uses a pistol.
.

 

[ycbm]

I'm a bit lost. Because of your earlier post and experience?

There was no welfare issue (except for me, having to wait being emotionally difficult). I sedated the only headshy horse I've ever had shot. All the rest I've been with, and there are many, were clean shot without having needles poked in them by a vet.

There is no welfare issue when the shooting is done by someone experienced with horses.
.

 

[minesadouble]

I would never want a vet to shoot a horse, they do it so rarely. Far better, imho to use a knacker/hunt who is used to doing the job regularly. I don't think it would be fair to the owner, horse or vet.

At my equine Veterinary practice none of the younger Vets have a gun licence. I've used both methods, depending on the situation and the horse in question. Vet for injection and Knacker man for shooting. I have no issue with either method.

 

[AmyMay]

Both the vets at my equine practice and the neighbouring one, when they used to use the gun, would sedate the horses before shooting them.

Belt and braces, gold standard if you like, in case the horse threw its head around at the last minute.

It was always the same whenever our vets used a gun. Absolutely done on safety grounds for the vet. Understandably.

 

[teddypops]

in an emergency we have around 6 horse vets who come out. There is no choice, it is just the first and nearest one that can be sent. I guess vets must carry sufficient drugs in their cars at all times to PTS a horse in an emergency. I cannot see that 6 vets would carry guns in their cars at all times.

I worked at a vets where a few of the older vets would use a gun, but that gun stayed at the practice locked in a safe. If a client wanted their horse shot, they had to make vet aware so correct vet and gun could be sent to the call out.

 

[windand rain]

Our vet told me to call the knackerman to a friends horse as that was his preferred method for his own horses. It was elective so time wasn't relevant but it was good of him to put his perceived welfare of the horse first.

 

[Cragrat]

One of our old mares fought colic thorugh the night - many vet visits, each time leaving us with a bit of hope that she'd pull through, but by the early hours it was clear she had gone downhill, so the decison to PTS was made (in mine and vets opinion, never a suitable candidate for an op). I said I would prefer her to be shot (having been present for injection and gun a few times, the gun is my preference). The vet repiled that it would have to be the gun anyway, as she was 'too toxic' for the injection to work porperly.

So if vets aren't carrying guns, what would they do in this situation?