PTS

[PurBee]

I am also an equine vet, of over 20 years standing. Threads like this make me want to either cry, or hang up my stethoscope. There is just no way of doing right for doing wrong. I think it is time to retire from social media.

Whatever actions are taken, in anything, there’s always people who can complain about it. While at the same time there will be those who applaud that action. That’s humanity for you.

Any action we take, if we’re trying to do the best we can, with the information we have at the time, we can walk through life with relative ‘self-ease’.
We can consider others opinions, sure, but ultimately in any moment, all a person has is their knowledge and experience at the time, and try to use it for the best outcome.

Even if at a future point having gained more experience/knowledge and we look back realising we did wrong, we can be thankful we now have learnt better and won’t repeat the mistake, while taking comfort that at the time, our intent was to do our best.

 

[windand rain]

Having read this thread I am even more convinced I am better having mine shot by a recognised knackerman. Never had any of these issues the bang stays with you but the rest is far more efficient
I say this because I feel for the vet whose job is to save lives not take them the knackermans job is to quickly dispose of life so comes from a different perspective

 

[The Jokers Girl]

Thanks, I know more now and I've watched an excellent video on YouTube showing a grey horse called Sugar PTS with injection should anyone feel they want to watch it

which is very helpful and cleared up a lot of questions which I didn't really want to ask on here for fear of being picked apart again.

I'm just surprised all vets don't mention this. My own vet and I had this conversation one evening when she stopped to watch my horse for a while before leaving after I'd called her out for colic. She said she'd always told people about movement/noise after a horse is pts to warn them.

Thank you for posting this. As hard as it was for me to click on it, knowing it's that quick and painless and peaceful will be a massive comfort When the time comes for mine.
I'm crying now thinking about it ?

 

[Spirit2021]

Don’t get the issue where you against having the horse put to sleep.

 

[Birker2020]

Don’t get the issue where you against having the horse put to sleep.

Is that directed at me?

 

[AmyMay]

Is that directed at me?

?? the op surely ??‍

 

[Ownedby4horses]

OP, I just don’t understand what the issue is. Ive always filled out the excemption bit on all my horse’s passports as soon as I got them (for me it is usual to flick through the whole passport when I’ve got a horse, as I would imagine it is for most. I signed the excemption bit for two reasons, I’m a veggie, so it’s just too weird to think about any of my horses ending up in the food chain and also, I’m a realist, I’ve owned horses for a very long time and with past experience, most horses will at some point have something from the vet that will exclude them from the food chain. I had a new livery and the vet signed the exception page immediately during vaccination. Every vet I’ve ever had has checked that page is signed, so it is routine.

With regards to the vet, they’ve done absolutely nothing wrong, I don’t believe you have explained if it was planned PTS or emergency yet? I’ve had many animals PTS, the last was last July, while in the UK, it was an emergency and the priority was sedation and pain relief to allow me to sign the authorisation and for me to make absolute certain that was my decision and to say farewell (there was an extremely small percentage chance of recovery). The vet that put my lovely boy to sleep was noticeably traumatised as I was so incredibly upset and she was in floods of tears too and despite social distancing, we just had to hug each other (we were both in masks) and I told her how very grateful I was that she was able to end his pain for him.

Do not underestimate the effect that putting an animal to sleep can have on a vet. It may well have been that the vet in question finds that the way that they only can deal with having to carry that out, as being ”business like”, rather than collapsing into pieces themselves.

I can’t recall the figures but there is an incredibly high percentage of suicides in vets and I can imagine dealing with PTS and owners in that awful situation is a big part of that. I would really hate to know how your vet is currently feeling, as you seem to be pursuing something that isn’t obvious.

The Asterix for me - the most logical reason for me would simply be an office mark, a way of signifying that the animal has been PTS, so that they didn’t cause any distress sending out vaccination reminders etc.

Youve been given some really good advice on here already and I am sure your heart and head is all over the place, i definitely would recommend using the BHS service to talk to someone and help you come to terms with your grief.

You have my thoughts and prayers at this sad time. x

I just wanted to add, my vet was absolutely amazing, so calm and dealt with the PTS so professionally. After the event was when the tears trickled, I have known her for sometime and she knew the struggles we were going through at the time with our toddler grandson fighting for his life on a ventilator at the time (and subsequently didn’t survive).

It was a very different set of circumstances for me that time. Would I have expected it in different circumstances and from another vet, god no.

I would just like to say any vets on this thread/reading this thread. Please never give up, you are so valued and you have my utmost admiration For the job you do for us. x

 

[Birker2020]

I would just like to say any vets on this thread/reading this thread. Please never give up, you are so valued and you have my utmost admiration For the job you do for us. x

Here, here or hear, hear whichever is correct.

 

[paddy555]

Having read this thread I am even more convinced I am better having mine shot by a recognised knackerman. Never had any of these issues the bang stays with you but the rest is far more efficient
I say this because I feel for the vet whose job is to save lives not take them the knackermans job is to quickly dispose of life so comes from a different perspective

it is everyone''s personal choice as to how they would like to PTS but sometimes there is no choice it has to be the vet. For the last 3 of mine it was the vet.
Each time the horse had colic. These were older horses where colic does happen. Unexpected, unplanned and we had no way of knowing. It came out of the blue. The last one I was tucking up in bed and just about to give his evening hay at 8.30 pm. By 10.30 the vet had PTS. He was in terrible distress. With these sort of incidents some recover and some don't. Often you don't know until the vet arrives and assesses which it is going to be. So you have a horse in agony a vet saying no way out and you would then have to ring the knackerman and, even if he is there and available to drop everything and come straight out, keep the horse in agony for another period of time.

Planned PTS is different but emergencies are not. You have to do whatever is available and quickly.

I always use a vet. I have never had any problems with them failing to PTS efficiently. I have known cases personally where shooting didn't work as it should by a knackerman and it was not quick both for the horse and especially for the owner.
The vet's job is certainly to save lives but IMHO to also end suffering as quickly as possible. If you have a dog in agony it would be the vet who dealt with it,, not the knackerman and whilst they would try to save it's life they would also have no choice but to take the life. I cannot see it is any different with horses.

Someone will reply to this with their experiences of PTS by injection and what went wrong. There are always potential problems. It is a case of studying the choices and working out what you will do if you have to.

that final para or indeed the post is not aimed at you W & R it is just a comment to try and encourage any "Newbies" to this very sad fact of life to read what they can and be prepared. I hope none of this post sounds patronising. It is not meant to.

 

[Spirit2021]

Is that directed at me?

Nope it’s for the op

 

[Orangehorse]

Thank you for posting this. As hard as it was for me to click on it, knowing it's that quick and painless and peaceful will be a massive comfort When the time comes for mine.
I'm crying now thinking about it ?

I hadn't seen a PTS by injection, so thanks for that. The two I had were shot and it was instantaneous, they just dropped, with their head in a bucket of food, didn't feel a thing (Sugar did react to the injection slightly). But they were ponies, and I don't know for my large horse .................. it is a hard choice to make.

 

[brighteyes]

It seems the overwhelming majority are in deep gratitude to their vets. I most certainly am and ensure my thanks are given on the day and again when I call to settle up.

You need to separate the professional from the cost, too. It's almost shameful how little they actually earn from any service they provide but especially the trauma of attending to PTS.

In the replies, as has been pointed out by the vets and their connections, having their skills and manner discussed or at the best almost overlooked is something of an insult. I hope I am right in saying where it isn't mentioned it is an unintentional oversight.

 

[poiuytrewq]

Here, here or hear, hear whichever is correct.

?‍ Which is correct?!

 

[Meowy Catkin]

?‍ Which is correct?!

'Hear, Hear!' is correct.

 

[chaps89]

Having read this thread I am even more convinced I am better having mine shot by a recognised knackerman. Never had any of these issues the bang stays with you but the rest is far more efficient
I say this because I feel for the vet whose job is to save lives not take them the knackermans job is to quickly dispose of life so comes from a different perspective

Mine was pts by the knackerman last week.
It was expected and so I was able to arrange it and inform my vet beforehand too.
My vet knew the pony very very well, and part of my decision to use a knackerman not my vet in this instance is how hard it is for the vet, especially when it's a horse they've known a very long time, I didn't feel I could or wanted to ask her to do it. Thankfully i have a preference to gun rather than injection anyway.
The knackerman had no emotional involvement and that's their job through and through. Knackerman was exceptionally professional and kind but not over familiar which was absolutely what I needed. The process went smoothly and with dignity and I was glad it was done that way.
I had a lovely card in the post from the vets, which was personal and touching, and I shall be dropping some flowers and chocolates off in due course to say thankyou to them for everything they did over the years.

I do however completely agree with the subsequent poster who also mentioned plans changing if it's an emergency or using a vet if they're already there. In that instance I absolutely concur that whatever is best for the horse be done and if that's injection because the relevant professional is there or can get there first then so be it. The important thing I think is that as owners we think about and prepare ourselves for this in advance.

OP, I'm not sure of the reasons behind the issues you seem to have, it sounds like the actual Pts went as well as it could all things considered, which is most important. Hopefully other posters have explained why the vet may have seemed distant.
Maybe although you were with them for 14 years, they didn't know you well if they've only been out for routine stuff and so don't really know you that well?
The paperwork sounds unfortunate but they really shouldn't need to explain internal lingo/scribblings to you.
When my vet saw my horse last summer, even though she had seen her many many times previously, she did a thorough examination of passport against horse, checked markings, microchip and that the horse was signed out of the food chain. The visit was for something entirely unrelated, but it was obviously something that was required, she said regulations and checks were getting tighter and they had to check all paperwork was present and correct. Maybe that's what your vet was doing (and assumed you would want your horse signed out of the food chain) or maybe they were administering drugs in which instance they would have to sign them out regardless.
We don't really have enough info here on the situation that led to pts etc to be able to offer you any more specific or useful advice. But hopefully the range of replies from lots of different view points helps.
If you're struggling please don't feel afraid or embarrassed about seeking professional help (counselling or the like) I hope you can take comfort in knowing your horse had a peaceful end and find some closure.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I hadn't seen a PTS by injection, so thanks for that. The two I had were shot and it was instantaneous, they just dropped, with their head in a bucket of food, didn't feel a thing (Sugar did react to the injection slightly). But they were ponies, and I don't know for my large horse .................. it is a hard choice to make.

Your large horse will also just drop with his head in a bucket. I have had Clydesdales, a Shire and a Westphalian Kaltblut (Draft) shot and they all just dropped. The ID was an emergency pts by injection, while the vet was on the premises. She stood up on her back legs, which was horrific and could have been very dangerous.

 

[poiuytrewq]

'Hear, Hear!' is correct.

Thank you! Not one I’d considered before and would have taken either to be right without a second thought.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

It's apparently short for 'hear them, hear them'* when someone has said something that you agree with and you want others to listen to what they are saying.

* I guess that him, her or them would work.

 

[ycbm]

I hadn't seen a PTS by injection, so thanks for that. The two I had were shot and it was instantaneous, they just dropped, with their head in a bucket of food, didn't feel a thing (Sugar did react to the injection slightly). But they were ponies, and I don't know for my large horse .................. it is a hard choice to make.

Spoiler: euthanasia by gun

Well, to be brutally honest, they crash. 600kg hitting the floor goes with a whump. It's violent for the handler, big bang, big whump, but instant for the horse. I had a big horse shot last year and he made it very difficult. He would not hold his head still for the gun. Luckily, I had sedative to hand, but it was a fluke and the wait while it took hold was absolutely awful. I have made a note to myself to have a tube available the next time, but for the first time ever I question whether I will use a vet and lethal injection next time.

 

[paddy555]

Spoiler: euthanasia by gun

Well, to be brutally honest, they crash. 600kg hitting the floor goes with a whump. It's violent for the handler, big bang, big whump, but instant for the horse. I had a big horse shot last year and he made it very difficult. He would not hold his head still for the gun. Luckily, I had sedative to hand, but it was a fluke and the wait while it took hold was absolutely awful. I have made a note to myself to have a tube available the next time, but for the first time ever I question whether I will use a vet and lethal injection next time.

oh dear, couldn't really like that but it was probably a good idea to post it so people learn. I'm sorry it was so rotten.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

Having had horses since 1969, often multiple at a time and keeping many of them to the end I have unfortunately had to have many put down. In that time only three have gone by injection, a foal with a broken leg, a brood mare after a disastrous foaling and a colic. All the others were planned and shot either by the local hunt or a brilliant knacker. I have had one die from an enlarged heart and one found dead in the field. Both were removed by the hunt. My preference is shooting but I have no problem with injection. I stay with them for injection but hand over to the knacker and walk away. He can deal with them more effectively without an owner getting in his way. My husband watched him shoot a little mare who had gone blind suddenly. She was panicky and couldn't stand still. My husband said he was very patient waiting till exactly the right moment. He was very impressed with him.
Our current three will not have any invasive surgery or loads of money spent on them. My sister and I are very much on the same page in this respect thankfully. They will get the best care we can give them while we have them.

 

[palo1]

Such a sad and difficult subject @mary pearce and I am sorry for your loss and the difficult time you are having. I too had a 'difficult' experience with a vet during a PTS. It was 'planned' in as much as I spoke to the vet early that morning to say that due to the on-going difficulties my horse was having, the prognosis re his injury and his age that I did not want to proceed with treatment & rehab. The vet agreed that this was the best way forward and that he would come later that day to euthanise my horse. He arranged for me to collect some sedative from a large local race yard and specified a time I was to give that. Going to collect the sedative was an awful job tbh but my OH was with me. The sedative was given to the horse who I had spent all day with. The vet was 3 hours late with no explanation, nor communication. He was clearly unhappy with me wanting to attend the PTS but the horse's vet notes from the practice were clear that I should be required to handle him due to his rather extreme behavioural issues. This was never questioned previously nor discussed in relation to euthanasia even though injection was not safe. There was clearly not much option. I told the vet that I would hold the lead-rope, standing in front but to one side. The vet questioned me twice as to whether this was ok; it was extremely difficult for me but eventually with an increasingly restless horse, the vet shot him. I dropped the rope, the horse dropped immediately and I walked away. My OH thankfully dealt with the body and disposal. The vet walked away, got in his car and drove off without a word whilst I sobbed standing next to my vehicle. That horse was a very much loved friend who had been with me, and with that veterinary practice a very long time.

The whole experience was dire tbh - a combination of difficult circumstances and probably some issues that the vet had but never actually discussed with me (his late arrival, lack of a second sedative or communication about his late arrival to enable me to delay sedation) including the difficult and potentially dangerous situation of me being so close to a horse being euthanased with a captive bolt. This was an 'excellent' vet - hugely experienced, pragmatic and very well respected but really at that time, no compassion was shown and I was in a really bad way subsequently. I don't know why it had to be like that - it was very confusing tbh. It took a very long time to get over the experience but for me it was easier to simply change vet practices as a response - I chose not to ask questions about the sequence of events or conduct of the vet and perhaps that might be possible for you too.

I still feel huge sadness about the way that I was dealt with on such a difficult day but my horse was euthanased quickly and successfully even though it was a very difficult time for me. The horse being dealt with was thankfully the most important thing and I am thankful that his passing was 'managed' well in the end. I would never, ever want a referral to that vet /practice again (and they are regularly recommended and viewed as an excellent practice) but walking away was definately better for me to draw a line under that 'relationship'. Hard though these words seem if I were you I would pay my bill and leave your practice for a different one. That may help you to move on from such a sad and upsetting time. I am sorry if my experience or words are not helpful for you.

 

[AdorableAlice]

Let’s be mindful of the fact that large animal vets have one of the highest suicide rates. A few of us on here will know our vets as dear friends as well as outstanding professionals, I certainly do. The pressures vets work under are immense.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I would never want a vet to shoot a horse, they do it so rarely. Far better, imho to use a knacker/hunt who is used to doing the job regularly. I don't think it would be fair to the owner, horse or vet.

 

[Auslander]

Let’s be mindful of the fact that large animal vets have one of the highest suicide rates. A few of us on here will know our vets as dear friends as well as outstanding professionals, I certainly do. The pressures vets work under are immense.

This, 100%.
My vet is calm, quiet and empathetic when she comes to euthanise a horse here. She blocks out a big chunk of her diary, so she doesn't have to rush off afterwards, and she deals with the horse and the owner with kindness and respect.
When I had Ted PTS, she sat on the ground next to him and stroked his neck after he'd gone. It was really touching, and I'll never forget it.

 

[palo1]

I would never want a vet to shoot a horse, they do it so rarely. Far better, imho to use a knacker/hunt who is used to doing the job regularly. I don't think it would be fair to the owner, horse or vet.

I do agree with this and I also recognise the awfully difficult job that vets have - both in managing their daily crisis cases as well as the sad and difficult job of euthanasing animals under their care. I have huge respect for vets and have been thankful for their wisdom for many years but there are many reasons too why our experience of a veterinary situation can be difficult. I don't think it is necessarily anyone's fault - more often it is situational. I could not, in the end, reconcile my experience so I chose to use a different vet - I certainly wouldn't have wanted to complain about my specific experience and I am glad I could recognise that it probably wasn't an easy situation for my vet in the instance I have described. I just never wanted to see him again and that was fairly easily managed without personal feelings or professional difficulties with the situation having to be expressed or exposed.

 

[ycbm]

I would never want a vet to shoot a horse, they do it so rarely. Far better, imho to use a knacker/hunt who is used to doing the job regularly. I don't think it would be fair to the owner, horse or vet.

I don't know of any vets who would. Do any of them still have a gun?

 

[criso]

I don't know of any vets who would. Do any of them still have a gun?

Mine offered when I said that was what I wanted to do, he is quite experienced. I don't know if he carries it with him, probably not.

However I chose not to because I didn't want the stress of having to coordinate 2 people, I preferred to have someone do it and take the body away. When I explained vet went over to Frankie to say goodbye, they had been meeting frequently for a long time.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I don't know of any vets who would. Do any of them still have a gun?

My vets used to use the gun, but none of them do now. Even the older vets who formerly used the gun have switched to injection only now.

They always heavily sedate the horse first, which should be mandatory on welfare grounds, but bizarrely and sadly it doesn't seem to be.

 

[palo1]

I think it is very rare for vets to use a captive bolt these days which makes choosing a method of euthanasia slightly more tricky for some people. If they have a good existing relationship with a vet then they are pretty much limited to lethal injection as it is more difficult to engage with a complete stranger for the task of PTS I think even if a gun is the preferred option.