Retirement?

[Dyllymoo]

Would you retire J and if yes what are the minimums you think he needs I.e. time out in field etc. If you wouldn't thats OK I'm not going to get upset with you, I need open and honest opinions. If you would rather PM me thats fine too.

He currently spends 17 hours in his stable which I feel like is too long at the best of times let alone now.

The yard does offer 24/7 turnout in summer but winter is long!

For those that don't know his story its here: https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/wwyd-tripping.793741/

I've put his name down on a list at a track livery who specialise in retirement but as you can imagine there is a long waiting list.

I've not slept well and I'm just trying to put things in perspective a bit

 

[cauda equina]

Absolutely I would
I retire all my crocks; one lasted 9 years as a happy field ornament, one is still the field boss, and another has come back into light work
Rather than waiting for the track livery to have a space I'd look around for somewhere that does grass livery in the meantime
I am so sorry this has happened; he reminds me of one of my dear boys
Good luck!

 

[ihatework]

My general view is if I really like the horse and they have done a good job for me then I will offer them retirement. But they need to be positively happy turned away 24/7 and in minimal pain plus I need access to decent ground and herd turnout.

But I can’t say what to do in your circumstances. What I would say is retiring a young horse into a track system is a significant financial burden, don’t feel like you need to be a martyr, it’s ok to let him go. I find the thought and build up to it 10x wise than the actual deed and aftermath

 

[poiuytrewq]

I think @ihatework has nailed it.
I have retired mine, simply because I’ve been lucky enough for it to have been an option. It’s not been ideal as I don’t have 24/7 turnout.
Im currently struggling a little with the latest as he’s not been sound but if we can get him sound and happy quickly he will stay til that’s no longer the case.
If I’m honest I’m not sure I’d pay long term to retire a younger horse. Its a lot of money for a long time.
Edited to add, ask round locally. There’s actually a few places by me that I’ve found have a retirement field/s and do grass livery with daily checks, some provide hay and feed and are not hugely expensive.

 

[Bernster]

Yes if horse is happy and I can afford it. May seem harsh but that’s the reality. Lots of retirement and grass livery places so I’d look around, depends how often you want to visit and how local it then needs to be. But if they we’re not very comfortable I’d pts as I think that’s kinder all round.

I’m Sorry its not good news with your boy but I hope you can find a solution either way. You’ll be ok, and you’ll do the right thing for you and him (whatever that is) - look after yourself.

 

[milliepops]

as IHW really.
I have one retiree that was a fabulous horse for 15 years and who I enjoy having around. it doesn't cost me anything really, she lives in our field and footcare and hay is zero cost to me thanks to my OH.
another that retired at a young age due to related issues to J, the plan was always to breed from her before her diagnosis so when vet gave us the go ahead to still put her in foal I did and she's doing really well. Her prognosis is good as a retired horse and she has a nice job for me.

My latest retiree I'm not going to be able to hold on to. I don't have suitable facilities really and I can't pay for him to retire elsewhere. He's not a candidate for rehoming because it just wouldn't be responsible. My personal attachment is quite low for various reasons, partly because I had seen this coming for a while. It's crappy for him but he won't know.

I don't think there's a right or wrong, you have to do what's right for YOU. i would say retire if you feel positive about it, and not if you feel it will be an emotional and financial burden, there's no point adding further stress to an already rubbish situation.

 

[Dyllymoo]

Thanks all. Really appreciate your responses.

I didn't retire my last gelding as he was a nightmare and riggy and was so unhappy turned away, my mare i managed to retire (albeit at the yard we were at) for a few months before she went downhill and was uncomfortable. I would only retire somewhere i could keep an eye on him regularly as I would want to make sure he didn't go downhill and no-one noticed.

A friend knows someone who has a small retirement place and is going to ask some questions for me.

I'm reluctant to pts on the basis of how much he has done for me as we didn't get the chance and it wasn't his fault. He did however make me smile on every ride so that's something.

Its all sinking in still. Its just really really bloody sad ?

 

[TPO]

Echo IHW

I personally wouldn't plan to retire a horse with a degenerative condition long term.

My last TB was pretty much a field ornament for the 6yrs that I had him. There was a lot of vet intervention for his undiagnosed "issue", that made him unrideable on the whole, but he was always ok in himself. I could afford him and his management but it undoubtedly meant sacrifices in other areas of my life, although it was an informed decision and my choice.

When mums horse was being pts I decided to let mine go then too. At that point I thought there was arthritis starting in a knee (backed at 16mths for racing, had some horrendous crashes in training along with his not so great conformation and he was now 16) so really he was the best he was ever going to be and it would only be downhill from then on. I'm a firm believer in a month too early over a second too late.

Since 2008 I've had 5 horses pts (not great!) and IHW is right that it's the making the call and run up to it that is the hardest. The guilt is pretty overwhelming, for me anyway, being "nice to their face" when I know what is coming. When I lost my last TB, after holding mums horse to go, I was obviously upset but for the first time I felt relief at having let a horse go.

Until then I just hadnt realised how stressful and exhausting it was constantly being on high alert for any changes. Watching his every move to get a head start on his issue raising its head took its toll and I was always paranoid that my base level for normal/ok was off because he was so wonky and that he looked horrendous to other people (he didnt and everyone b'tched about me because they said he was sound and "fine" ??). From your recent posts I think that you are heading down the same path in trying your best to be a conscientious owner and with the benefit of hindsight I can say that it can become all consuming with a side of soul destroying. It was a weight, that I didnt know I was carrying, lifted when he went. That doesnt mean I wasnt upset or didnt miss him and wish I could have fixed him but the relief was a new feeling after pts.

I feel like I'm always saying pts like some angel of doom. Losing my last TB definitely changed my perspective. I'm from farming stock and have always been brought up that the animals come first regardless of how much I dont want to lose them. I've always tried to stick with that and I did get it wrong one time by listening to my then vets and pts TPO so I'm also lugging around 10yrs of regret over that. I do get it's not an easy call.

Not to be heartless but a sick horse often costs more than healthy one without the plus points of riding etc. I'm not saying riding is the be all (again, 6yrs I had last horse and rode him 30x max) but it does get a bit wearing when everyone else is out doing things. I was fortunate that I always had 2 or 3; less fortunate when they all broke at the same time ?

It's a lot to get your head around. It had escalated quickly from tripping, that the majority on your yard were saying was "nothing", to this point. Its completely natural (I think) to want to be a "good" owner and do everything in your power to keep them going and/or rehab but sometimes that isnt an option.

When my last horse went I realised that if I had made the call 5yrs prior he still wouldnt have known any different and I would have had a very different 5yrs. I dont regret keeping him but with hindsight keeping him going wasnt the most sensible idea even although he was fine in himself. Possibly a bit of martyrdom with the whole "just because he can't be ridden..." thing and like I said I was in a position to offer that but perhaps not the overall smartest decision.

Prior to last TB I had TPO and made the decision because of the vets who shut down all my rehab suggestions (navic and they were/are very anti barefoot. With hindsight should have trusted my own eyes over their "expertise"). They also went on to screw me over with last TB (I'm a slow learner apparently) so when I moved to my fantastic vet I wanted to try all his options. So on some level I do understand you wanting different opinions but I think the recent vet visit had sort of put things into black and white, for which I'm sorry that it was bad news.

I've already had the discussion with mum about the current three. If they make it to old age healthily then they can have a retirement until it's no longer in their best interests. If anything happens that is degenerative, requires management that may affect their quality of life or long term box rest (that none of this mob would cope with) then the call is made.

I'm not telling anyone what they should do but you asked what "we" would do and if I found myself in the position that you were in I would pts after a week of being spoiled. I am genuinely sorry that you've ended up with this diagnosis.

Please take care of yourself. It's a heavy weight to be carrying

 

[milliepops]

It's a lot to get your head around. It had escalated quickly from tripping, that the majority on your yard were saying was "nothing", to this point. Its completely natural (I think) to want to be a "good" owner and do everything in your power to keep them going and/or rehab but sometimes that isnt an option.

this is a good point, its horrible when something sort of comes out of the blue, at least with mine I have already seen horses similar and known how they can appear to be pretty normal but effectively have a terminal diagnosis lurking under the surface, it takes the shock factor away from it all and you're left with resignation

I have to say that if I had any concerns around mine falling over I'd be quicker to call it a day, but we're predicting a very slow progression with the mare which makes it easy to keep her around. her symptoms are pretty mild and i could have kept riding her, i just don't see any appeal in riding a horse you know to be compromised.

 

[Michen]

Are you asking whether you'd retire him or continue to rehab, or whether you'd retire him or PTS?

Re the latter, I have PTS in the past because I didn't want the financial burden of a retired horse for potentially 20 years. Though that particular horse would have struggled with field retirement anyway as a total crock.

I would never PTS Boggle, because I owe him the world, so even if I couldn't have another horse he would be retired and looked after until the day he needed to go. However, I'd PTS Bear, because it's just not the same situation and I wouldn't want to keep him financially for all that time.

Harsh, but reality.

There is no right or wrong and if you want to PTS that is absolutely reasonable and fair.

 

[doodle]

Not read replies but yes I would retire Robin if he needed it. However it was a progressive thing I would have a chat with vet and discuss what point we would have to get to to call it a day. We did this with Minto and I knew what point I wouldn’t go past. But from what I have read on your posts he isn’t particularly happy so I would be trying to find an alternative set up for him.

 

[southerncomfort]

For me firstly I'd need to know that I could keep him pain free.

Secondly, I'd need to be confident that I would be quick to notice and acknowledge if/when he deteriorated.

Thirdly, I'd need to be sure in my own mind that his symptoms (you describe him as 'not knowing where his feet are') would not cause him to feel frightened or vulnerable.

I would base any decision on the answers to those questions.

I'm so sorry you are going through this, its utterly heartbreaking.

 

[Dyllymoo]

Thanks all.

Michen the only options I think I have are retirement or PTS. I don't think continuing rehab is in the mix from the last vet visit unfortunately.

Think I have a few questions for the vet when she calls back on Thursday.

Thanks all

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I did retire one at livery aged 8, she was an excellent companion. It's a long and complicated story but she moved with us, aged 13 (?) when we moved here and was finally pts aged 24.

However, I have had 2 pts with neurological issues (ataxia) both were elderly but as soon as we knew what the problem was, the decision was made as we really didn't want them to fall over and cause themselves serious injury. TBH, I think I would organise pts on the yard he considers to be home on a day when I could take a few days off work, so as not to have to go in immediately afterwards. I have had 3 young horses pts (1x 6yrs, 2 x11 yrs) I am so sorry it has come to this.


ETA, there was no possibility of retirement for the younger horses because of the diagnoses in each case.

 

[Hallo2012]

My general view is if I really like the horse and they have done a good job for me then I will offer them retirement. But they need to be positively happy turned away 24/7 and in minimal pain plus I need access to decent ground and herd turnout.

But I can’t say what to do in your circumstances. What I would say is retiring a young horse into a track system is a significant financial burden, don’t feel like you need to be a martyr, it’s ok to let him go. I find the thought and build up to it 10x wise than the actual deed and aftermath

absolutely this.

personally i would let him go, you and he have a long long time of retirement ahead, many stresses and struggles, mentally in your shoes after all youve been through.....i wouldnt do it.

 

[NinjaPony]

I’m in the unenviable position of having two retired ponies.

One has been retired for 10 years now (he’s 20). Bought when I was much younger, found out he had hock spavins just after I grew out of him. He’s 11.2hh, sharper than a sharp thing and totally unsuitable for lead rein. Couldn’t pass him on due to his temperament plus the hocks and wanted to secure his future so he’s been my pet ever since. Slightly mad yes, but I was lucky to be able to run him alongside my ridden pony and he’s part of the family. It’s just normal for me to have one retired pet! He’s got Cushings now but honesty you’d never know there was anything wrong with him. He looks half his age, still moves reasonably well and I swear the early retirement has been the making of him/prevented a decline.

My other retired pony has been a real heartbreaker. Retired after nearly 9 of the best riding years I’ve ever had, with lung fibrosis. Spent well over a year trying to fix him. Could have called it a day after the x-rays confirmed the worst, but I wanted to try and give him some time over the summer to retire. I know we are on borrowed time and he won’t see another summer, and I’m checking obsessively every day on his breathing. It’s tough- he’s the best pony I’ve ever ridden/been around and watching him age before my eyes is breaking my heart. Rest assured that I’m prepared to make the call when I need to, I’ve been aware of that for months now. If it was another horse I might not have tried so hard.

I keep them both on diy livery. Little one is in overnight due to the laminitis risk, my other boy lives out so he can get as much fresh air as possible. It’s very cheap, relatively speaking, and means I can just about afford to have them both.

For me it depends on the horse. My Welsh A is so full of life and enthusiasm that I just have to keep him going! He’s the best little troublemaker and I know I’m a bit bonkers but he’ll stay until he’s ready to go. Sadly I won’t be able to give my other boy the retirement he deserves. My last pony was PTS aged 10 with ddft tears and damage, she was too young to be retired to a life of pain.

I really feel for you, it is absolutely gut-wrenching.

 

[IrishMilo]

I'm reluctant to pts on the basis of how much he has done for me as we didn't get the chance and it wasn't his fault.

I would thank him for the good times, give him a big bowl of his favourite food and kiss him goodbye. Horses don't think about yesterday and they don't think about tomorrow. All they know is now, and if they're in pain, then pain is their life. Putting to sleep isn't a punishment, it's a kindness.

 

[Cortez]

If the horse is comfortable with being turned out, and comfortable physically, then I try and give all my horses at least a year out in the field after they stop work. I will re-evaluate yearly, or if anything changes. I have put down horses that were problematic, for instance an arthritic stallion with sweet itch that hated being out, and a horse with cushings that wasn't happy and started to refuse medication. I don't view horses as pets, but I will try and give them a decent retirement if at all possible.

 

[Red-1]

I have had 2 horses who could have lived here forever, Charlie Horse and Jay Man. Sadly, Charlie was not comfortable enough to retire, even on Bute. Jay had 2 years of retirement, but his wobblers became a danger to him and anyone around him, so he had to be pts too. It was sad, as he was actually 'sound' if moving in a constant direction/speed. It was changing things that was tricky for him, as he had no idea where his feet were.

I did retire one to a friend, he paid £1 for him. The week before he bought him, the horse won points at BD Nov and Ele, but he was always going to be on/off lame. The situation worked out brilliantly for him, he had on average 3 months off each year, did a shed load of hacking and even a handful of dressages. Many years of happy retirement. I suspect that, if I had been unscrupulous, I could have got 4K for him, as he looked wonderful and could well have passed a vet at that time. I am not like that though!

My current horse, he was kind of retired before I bought him. He *may* come sound enough to be a hack, he *may* not. As long as he is sound and happy, I am happy really. I am aiming that he can be a light hack around the village (under an hour in walk) and do some light schooling. The schooling isn't really necessary though.

To be fair, if he is not sound enough for a walk round the village, at least in hand, he isn't sound, so his welfare will keep being reviewed. There is nothing to suggest that by next winter he won't be able to achieve it though.

I think it is very personal. I think that whatever you decide for yours will be right.

 

[ycbm]

I think your vet told you he was unstable when he was with them for his last examinations? And you've previously posted a pretty worrying video of him falling over with you riding him?

I'm really sorry, DM, but I wouldnt retire a horse that has so little control of its legs might fall over at any time.
.

 

[Dyllymoo]

I think your vet told you he was unstable when he was with them for his last examinations? And you've previously posted a pretty worrying video of him falling over with you riding him?

I'm really sorry, DM, but I wouldnt retire a horse that has so little control of its legs might fall over at any time.
.

Unfortunately, this is what I have woken up thinking and I feel awful for thinking it. He has pulled another front shoe off and I cant help but think its all related (in the 14 months I have owned him he has only pulled 2 shoes off, and both have been within the last week).

I will speak with the vet again today but honestly I don't think its going to be the outcome of him living 20 years as a field potato and that is very sad.

 

[IrishMilo]

You'll find the strength to do what's right. Big hugs. I'm always here for a chat or virtual hand hold via PM.

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

I really feel for you but under the circumstances of his problems I think I would personally PTS. I understand how hard that is but I'm not sure I'd feel happy or comfortable with retirement. Without meaning to sound unkind, I think retirement would be for your sake rather than his..?? Big hugs xx

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Unfortunately, this is what I have woken up thinking and I feel awful for thinking it. He has pulled another front shoe off and I cant help but think its all related (in the 14 months I have owned him he has only pulled 2 shoes off, and both have been within the last week).

I will speak with the vet again today but honestly I don't think its going to be the outcome of him living 20 years as a field potato and that is very sad.

It is sad but you should not feel awful for thinking it. You should feel proud of yourself that you have thought it, some owners just cannot bring themselves to do the responsible thing for their horses and leave 'the final kindness' until the horse is suffering dreadfully. Better a week too soon than a day too late imho.
If you are still not sure, I find that asking my vet what s/he would do if the horse were theirs is useful. You usually get confirmation of your own thoughts.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

I have seen too many horses languishing in fields that really should have been PTS but the owners couldn't bring themselves to, as they saw it 'kill' them. One riding school owner I knew flatly refused to put horses down, they had to die of their own accord. Not sure what she would have done in case of broken legs though. I once saw a field full of her very old horses, ex hunters I believe and in appalling condition. These days I would report them but back then I worked for her sister and was only a teenager so did nothing to my everlasting shame.
Your horse is lucky to have a very caring owner who will do whatever is best for him.

 

[PapaverFollis]

I'm sorry Dyllymoo but I think I would PTS too. Hard to say what I would actually do when faced with it but from reading what you have written I would want to spare myself further heartbreak, stress and expense and spare the horse further potential suffering. But it's hard to know the extend to which he is struggling in himself without actually knowing the horse so that's the bit you have to feel out for yourself. If that makes sense.

I'm so sorry that you're going through this.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Unfortunately, this is what I have woken up thinking and I feel awful for thinking it. He has pulled another front shoe off and I cant help but think its all related (in the 14 months I have owned him he has only pulled 2 shoes off, and both have been within the last week).

I will speak with the vet again today but honestly I don't think its going to be the outcome of him living 20 years as a field potato and that is very sad.

Hey don't feel bad you have done nothing wrong in thinking that and you have done everything you can, it's incredibly sad and I really feel for you but you are thinking of what is best for him, I have retired one horse and she lived another year I would do it again but not if the horse could put itself or anything else in danger.

 

[Annagain]

No advice on what to do, I just want to send a big hug. All I would say is if you decide to retire, I wouldn't worry too much about a track system. I assume you're worried about weight but I'd let him be in a lovely field for as long as he was comfortable (for whatever reason). If that means he gets a bit fat and his retirement is a bit shorter as a result, so be it.

 

[ycbm]

Unfortunately, this is what I have woken up thinking and I feel awful for thinking it. He has pulled another front shoe off and I cant help but think its all related (in the 14 months I have owned him he has only pulled 2 shoes off, and both have been within the last week).

I will speak with the vet again today but honestly I don't think its going to be the outcome of him living 20 years as a field potato and that is very sad.

Please don't feel awful, you only feel that way because you care. Maybe it would help, in this situation, to look on the worst side, for once? Which would be worse, lose him now with a kind and dignified end, or get a call that he is down in the field in the mud and can't get up?

From the video you posted I would not hesitate, DM.

 

[daydreamer]

I had a lovely ex-eventer on loan for 6 years from the age of 19-25 (him not me!). Earlier this year he had some neck problems which were treated. I started bringing him back into work but he just didn't seem to be enjoying it. To be brutally honest I also didn't want to spend the next x years hacking in walk. He went back to his owner (this was always the agreement) in June and she found somewhere to retire him as part of a small herd out 24/7.

He is being PTS tomorrow. It is sad for her, and for me, but not for Barney. He hasn't been stood in the field daydreaming of next spring or summer. He doesn't munch away on the grass thinking about all the years of work he has done and that he is "owed" x years of retirement. The reality is that money is tight (owner furloughed) and that we don't have a crystal ball. His health is good now but he has Cushings which will only get worse and we don't know if the neck issue will reappear or some other problem might arise.

Each owner and each horse is different and you need to do what you think best. A horse will never suffer after being PTS, and isn't aware of anything after it has been PTS so the guilt must be about the loss of future possibilities- which I don't think they think about.