Retirement?

[Sandstone1]

I need someone to put his front shoe back on, I'm getting a second opinion from someone independent on Wednesday and we will go from there.

I feel awful today, worse than I did this morning. I don't know what is for the best and i'm so sick of being confused.

I am sorry you are in this situation. You can only go with what you feel. If you can afford it and hes happy and if you feel its the right thing for him retirement even if only for a short time until he gets worse may bring you the peace of mind that you gave him some extra time.
On the other hand if you feel its better to let him go remember he does not know whats coming spoil him and let him go quietly.
I dont think anyone can tell you what to do and there are no right or wrong answers. You just have to be at peace with your choice.
So sorry.

 

[splashgirl45]

the vet isnt making this easy for you by saying you can PTS for emotional/financial reasons. i would ignore the professionals and try and look at things from your horses point of view. if he is having a bad day, will he be distressed if he doesnt know where his legs are, or if he cannot move around enough to keep warm...when it is pouring with rain and freezing cold or the ground is hard and rutty and he struggles to get around. dont forget we are starting winter. i am sorry but as it is now winter i would PTS in the next couple of weeks, might have been different if it was summer... its really hard for you but i come back to quality of life NOT quantity....

 

[View]

Ah it's so hard, isn't it. Easy for us people on the forum to say PTS.

J has no concept of tomorrow, or that today is a bad day but tomorrow might be better. Hard though it is, as owners we owe them one final thing: to ensure that they go peacefully and with dignity.

Better to arrange it without rushing than to have to do it because he is down and you have no option.

So sorry, and hugs. It never gets easier but I have discovered over time that it is easier to make the decision and not prolong the wait until it is done.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I need someone to put his front shoe back on, I'm getting a second opinion from someone independent on Wednesday and we will go from there.

I feel awful today, worse than I did this morning. I don't know what is for the best and i'm so sick of being confused.

I would specifically ask the vet if they would support pts for an insurance claim. If they say no, I would ask why when they have commented on the rapid deterioration. Then you might get a clearer idea of the actual prognosis.

 

[Dyllymoo]

I would specifically ask the vet if they would support pts for an insurance claim. If they say no, I would ask why when they have commented on the rapid deterioration. Then you might get a clearer idea of the actual prognosis.

They said no because his welfare isn't an issue in this.

I'm.happy to send people the report I now have as honestly it is what it is. She said he may have good and bad days. Thats probably why they won't commit to him needing to be pts.

I'm going to see how he goes in retirement and allow us both to catch our breath a bit and then go from there

 

[Sandstone1]

They said no because his welfare isn't an issue in this.

I'm.happy to send people the report I now have as honestly it is what it is. She said he may have good and bad days. Thats probably why they won't commit to him needing to be pts.

I'm going to see how he goes in retirement and allow us both to catch our breath a bit and then go from there

I think thats very sensible, as long as he is in no immediate pain or distress it will give you time to see how he is and give you time to come to terms with things.

 

[ester]

You know him best, you see him every day, you do now know what signs you are looking for so if you are happy to monitor him, monitor him.

 

[spotty_pony]

I need someone to put his front shoe back on, I'm getting a second opinion from someone independent on Wednesday and we will go from there.

I feel awful today, worse than I did this morning. I don't know what is for the best and i'm so sick of being confused.

This is exactly where I am right now. I have the Vet coming out on Monday to reassess my boy and to have a proper chat and make a decision about what to do for the best. People don't help when they say I should try injections one last time else I might regret it or be forever wondering if they may work this time. He has Navicular and also tears to both DDFT in the hoof with lesions forming on the worst one. There is no cure, it can be managed but the prognosis has never been good and he is lame in trot after just five months since his visit to Rossdales. He is 17, but I'm not sure he will be happy retired for years and years and also worry about him being in pain and suffering. I will do the right thing by him, but it doesn't make it any easier.

 

[Dyllymoo]

I took some videos this morning and I'm unsure what I'm looking at if i'm honest but I guess I am using them as a benchmark for how he is and his decline?

If anyone wants to see them I can PM over.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Is your horse insured for loss of use? Or is it just that you fear that if you pts now the insurance company won't cover the cost?

Having seen my heavy Draft mare fall in the field (she picked herself up and at the time I just assumed she slipped in the mud because she was rushing to get to some hay), then deteriorate rapidly so that we pts shortly afterwards, I honestly wouldn't hang about another time. I would not want to risk a catastrophic fall in the field.

We also pts a 31 yr old cob mare, who had been seeing the vet and farrier every week, at least for 6 weeks, because no-one could really work out what was going on. Then she deteriorated to the point where she obviously didn't know where her back feet were going. We had her pts that day. We think that they were both as a result of PPID, one diagnosed the other undiagnosed.

I genuinely don't want to be unkind but I don't understand what you are waiting for.

 

[Dyllymoo]

Is your horse insured for loss of use? Or is it just that you fear that if you pts now the insurance company won't cover the cost?

It has nothing to do with the insurance. I just don't feel quite ready to say goodbye.

 

[Dyllymoo]

Is your horse insured for loss of use? Or is it just that you fear that if you pts now the insurance company won't cover the cost?

Having seen my heavy Draft mare fall in the field (she picked herself up and at the time I just assumed she slipped in the mud because she was rushing to get to some hay), then deteriorate rapidly so that we pts shortly afterwards, I honestly wouldn't hang about another time. I would not want to risk a catastrophic fall in the field.

We also pts a 31 yr old cob mare, who had been seeing the vet and farrier every week, at least for 6 weeks, because no-one could really work out what was going on. Then she deteriorated to the point where she obviously didn't know where her back feet were going. We had her pts that day. We think that they were both as a result of PPID, one diagnosed the other undiagnosed.

I genuinely don't want to be unkind but I don't understand what you are waiting for.

As you have edited your post I thought I would reply to the new bits.... Its ok that you don't understand why I am waiting. in all honesty I am struggling with things and at this precise moment in time, it isn't the right time for me to make the decision. You can disagree with that and that is absolutely fine.

You may not agree with what I am doing and when/ how, or even why but I am trying my best for him and just because I haven't decided on PTS right now it doesn't mean that ultimately I wont come to that decision. But I need to get there.

 

[milliepops]

I think as the vet has specifically not recommended pts on welfare grounds at this stage, it's Ok to play it by ear at the moment x

 

[holeymoley]

If you can get somewhere to pop him out even until next Summer before calling it a day. That's maybe what I would do. If he was mine and he was coping and wasn't changing dramatically and I could afford any medication/vet visits, this is what I would do. My concern would be that if something happened suddenly and he was at the point of pts there and then, I'd never forgive myself for not letting him go sooner.

ETA - Honestly had enough with predictive text! Good grief, it looks like I can't even speak english let alone write it.

 

[shamrock2021]

I completely respect your choice people shouldn’t be pressuring you into pts take all the time you need. I actually think nobody wants a retired horse for story’s friends who are vet have said people wanting to put completely healthy horse to sleep because they don’t want to retire them.

 

[HollyWoozle]

If the vet doesn't say you should put him to sleep on welfare grounds immediately then personally I think you can feel justified in taking time for both your sakes. You obviously have his welfare in mind to have done so much for him and you know him best. It doesn't have to be forever but it has been a stressful time for you both and you are allowed to have a breather, given that vet supports him going on grass livery. Good luck with it all and I'm sorry for the position you are in.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

As you have edited your post I thought I would reply to the new bits.... Its ok that you don't understand why I am waiting. in all honesty I am struggling with things and at this precise moment in time, it isn't the right time for me to make the decision. You can disagree with that and that is absolutely fine.

You may not agree with what I am doing and when/ how, or even why but I am trying my best for him and just because I haven't decided on PTS right now it doesn't mean that ultimately I wont come to that decision. But I need to get there.

Of course, he is your horse and the choice is entirely up to you. I wish you both well

 

[Dyllymoo]

If you can get somewhere to pop him out even until next Summer before calling it a day. That's maybe what I would do. If he was mine and he was coping and wasn't changing dramatically and I could afford any medication/vet visits, this is what I would do. My concern would be that if something happened suddenly and he was at the point of pts there and then, I'd never forgive myself for not letting him go sooner.

ETA - Honestly had enough with predictive text! Good grief, it looks like I can't even speak english let alone write it.

This is the bit I am struggling with. I don't think my brain has taken in that he will need to be PTS if I'm honest. But I definitely wouldn't want to leave it that bit too late as I think I would feel worse than doing it a few days before he looked like he needed it.

I've had to PTS my last 2 for medical reasons, neither of which were emergencies and I had both booked for the Monday after the weekend (weirdly they both went to the vets on the Thursday/ Friday). The weekend was bittersweet for both and I just spent time with both of them, hours of sitting and watching them... it was awful if I'm honest and wish I had booked for them to be PTS before the weekend.

Anyway, I digress... its all a work in progress in my brain and I will get to where I need to be, but just not right now selfishly

 

[holeymoley]

This is the bit I am struggling with. I don't think my brain has taken in that he will need to be PTS if I'm honest. But I definitely wouldn't want to leave it that bit too late as I think I would feel worse than doing it a few days before he looked like he needed it.

I've had to PTS my last 2 for medical reasons, neither of which were emergencies and I had both booked for the Monday after the weekend (weirdly they both went to the vets on the Thursday/ Friday). The weekend was bittersweet for both and I just spent time with both of them, hours of sitting and watching them... it was awful if I'm honest and wish I had booked for them to be PTS before the weekend.

Anyway, I digress... its all a work in progress in my brain and I will get to where I need to be, but just not right now selfishly

I understand. I think this is where I would monitor and compare as best I could. Perhaps set yourself a date whether it be 3/6 months down the line and say if he's declining by such and such then the date will have to be set.

I think it must be so difficult to book a date with the vets. I've thankfully not had to do it yet but unfortunately they don't all last forever

 

[Dyllymoo]

I understand. I think this is where I would monitor and compare as best I could. Perhaps set yourself a date whether it be 3/6 months down the line and say if he's declining by such and such then the date will have to be set.

I think it must be so difficult to book a date with the vets. I've thankfully not had to do it yet but unfortunately they don't all last forever

This is my thinking at the minute. I videoed him this morning undertaking some of the neuro tests. I didn't think he looked particularly good, others disagreed with me. That is my benchmark I guess. see how he goes from here.

 

[ycbm]

DM, this is the video which you posted before you got the ataxia diagnosis. You've also posted threads about finding him in a muck sweat after galloping around the field. If you combine the two things then this, to me, is a horse which you could find dead with a broken neck, or worse alive with a broken leg, at any time. That isn't something I could cope with, personally. My wobbler was PTS on a glorious day when he was as happy as a lark just after I got a definitive diagnosis.

I'm so sorry you are facing such a horrible decision, whether you do it sooner or later.

 

[Dyllymoo]

DM, this is the video which you posted before you got the ataxia diagnosis. You've also posted threads about finding him in a muck sweat after galloping around the field. If you combine the two things then this, to me, is a horse which you could find dead with a broken neck, or worse alive with a broken leg, at any time. That isn't something I could cope with, personally. My wobbler was PTS on a glorious day when he was as happy as a lark just after I got a definitive diagnosis.

I'm so sorry you are facing such a horrible decision, whether you do it sooner or later.

I've responded to this on my other post (sorry I know I have done several on the same subject).

Indeed... that is my concern.

I have actually booked a 2nd opinion vet to come to my yard. Possibly a waste of money, but I want to see the tests they do so I can see for myself what he is doing.

I am really having to battle against a lot of people at the minute who have opinions (i.e. he is fine and I need to stop overthinking it all, or complicating it with professionals i.e. vets!). I'm desperately trying to do the best for him.

I've asked for my OH to have the time off to be with me for the vet as he will probably think of questions I wont as he is non-horsey.

I do keep looking at the weather for a nice day.... but I cant quite commit at the minute.

 

[TPO]

Sorry to ask, and don't feel like you owe me a reply, but a second opinion about what?

He has a diagnosis and you've sadly been witness to his decline since the initial trip video.

One vet confusingly appears to have backtracked and is now saying he is ok to retire.

If it was an owner desperate to keep a horse going regardless of all else then they would have jumped on that and ran with it. You aren't doing that; you know how he is and the changes by the fact that you've committed to the "tests" and filming then.

I 100% appreciate your head being done in by liveries (& "friends" ?) who "know better". You really have to trust yourself and shut them down so that you dont have to listen to their BS. Easy said I know.

What do you want to get out of a second opinion given the diagnosis?

Do you want someone else to say retire him long term? If its ot a welfare case I'd imagine that most vets would if that was the way the owner appeared to leaning and/or the answer that they wanted. Do you want a vet to take the decision out of your hands and tell you that he must be pts? I don't think they would, especially not if a new to you referral vet.

I really hope that this hasnt upset you. You appear to be looking for *something* but I cant fathom out what. I fully appreciate it's a stressful and upsetting time and that your brain is probably scrambled. I do want to be supportive but I'm just unsure of what you are wanting.

If you want to run him on there will be plenty of support on here and if you make the call you'll have the same support. We've nearly all been there at one point or another and it isnt a good time. Just keep in mind what was posted previously about your well being and the toll that this will be taking on you too so look after yourself

 

[Dyllymoo]

Sorry to ask, and don't feel like you owe me a reply, but a second opinion about what?

He has a diagnosis and you've sadly been witness to his decline since the initial trip video.

One vet confusingly appears to have backtracked and is now saying he is ok to retire.

If it was an owner desperate to keep a horse going regardless of all else then they would have jumped on that and ran with it. You aren't doing that; you know how he is and the changes by the fact that you've committed to the "tests" and filming then.

I 100% appreciate your head being done in by liveries (& "friends" ?) who "know better". You really have to trust yourself and shut them down so that you dont have to listen to their BS. Easy said I know.

What do you want to get out of a second opinion given the diagnosis?

Do you want someone else to say retire him long term? If its ot a welfare case I'd imagine that most vets would if that was the way the owner appeared to leaning and/or the answer that they wanted. Do you want a vet to take the decision out of your hands and tell you that he must be pts? I don't think they would, especially not if a new to you referral vet.

I really hope that this hasnt upset you. You appear to be looking for *something* but I cant fathom out what. I fully appreciate it's a stressful and upsetting time and that your brain is probably scrambled. I do want to be supportive but I'm just unsure of what you are wanting.

If you want to run him on there will be plenty of support on here and if you make the call you'll have the same support. We've nearly all been there at one point or another and it isnt a good time. Just keep in mind what was posted previously about your well being and the toll that this will be taking on you too so look after yourself

I understand what you are saying and the 2nd opinion is so that I can see the neuro tests being performed by a vet. I didn't get to see anything last time due to covid.

I want to see what they are saying is wrong.

When you say I have seen his decline I can honestly say I haven't if I'm honest. He is the same now as he was before he fell over.

He was maybe a bit less forward when I was rehabbing him but if I didn't know he had issues in his neck I wouldn't of really thought twice about it if I'm honest.

This is why its so hard. A friend sent me a video (on my request) of her wobbler. He was grade 1 and she kept him in work and pts at grade 2. His back.end is all over the place in walk in hand. Like he has no idea where it is.

Johnnys isn't.

I know comparing is silly as every horse is different but I'm just trying to put into context in my brain what I need to do.

Honestly I wish I could put peoples comments in a box and ignore them. I can't.

He will be my 3rd horse in 4 years that I will have pts due to medical issues. I need to make sure I fully understand what is happening and what my genuine options are.

You haven't upset me but honestly I can't keep justifying myself to everyone on both sides. That's what is tiring for me.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I think it must be so difficult to book a date with the vets. I've thankfully not had to do it yet but unfortunately they don't all last forever

No, it's not really because you know that you are acting in the horse's best interests, whether that is because the horse is in pain which can't be medicated away, or because you can't guarantee that he will be able to get up when he has gone down, or because of some other condition which you know will only get worse. It could even be because you, as the owner simply cannot afford to treat a condition that will only get worse and that choice is pay for the meds or feed your children , or even the horse. It's not a pleasant decision to have to make, it's not what you want to have to do but you are doing it *for the horse*. It can often be a relief to have made the decision and the phone call.

The saying 'better a week too soon, than a day too late', is absolutely true and one that imo all responsible animal owners should take on board, I have seen too many animals left until their life has very little quality and cannot understand how owners can do that to their beloved pets.

 

[ihatework]

You haven't upset me but honestly I can't keep justifying myself to everyone on both sides. That's what is tiring for me.

I think you need to stop posting about it then (and I suspect stop discussing it at the yard).

The problem is you are opening yourself up to this sort of debate and because you are kind and polite it keeps going around in circles, raising your stress levels and inhibiting your ability to think clearly.

You need to discuss this with your partner, the vet and at the very most 1 rational and impartial friend.

 

[splashgirl45]

i understand how hard it is. my mare had progressive cushings and all summer i debated with myself about her quality of life, i was lucky as no one on my yard gave any opinions , i wouldnt have taken any notice but it was easier for me to just rely on myself and when i thought it was time i got the vet to look at her just in case i was wrong and there was something else i could try. the vet agreed with me so she was buted up and had the weekend having treats and extra fuss until the hunt came to the yard. you need to debate with yourself and ignore other liveries etc , you know your horse and no one on here does and we can only advise what we would do. i hope he is well enough for you to retire him if that is what you feel is right...my thoughts are with you xxx

 

[Upthecreek]

I think you need to stop posting about it then (and I suspect stop discussing it at the yard).

The problem is you are opening yourself up to this sort of debate and because you are kind and polite it keeps going around in circles, raising your stress levels and inhibiting your ability to think clearly.

You need to discuss this with your partner, the vet and at the very most 1 rational and impartial friend.

This 100%. You don’t need to justify anything to anyone, but if you are posting on the forum people are going to express their opinions. The thing I would say is this situation is obviously causing you a huge amount of stress and anxiety. The way I see it you are overthinking every tiny detail about the horse, but neglecting the bigger picture. What effect is this long period of worry, stress and indecision having on you and your family?

I don’t understand why you are prolonging the inevitable, unless you doubt the diagnosis from your vet. It’s important to remember that there are far worse things than death. I have pts 5 horses & far too many dogs in my life. Not once have I considered whether I am ready. I have made the decision based on diagnosis/prognosis/risk of discomfort or further injury to the animal.

 

[Dyllymoo]

Unfortunately a sad update. I had a 2nd vet opinion on Monday which was very helpful for me to see what the vets had been seeing. After a discussion it was agreed that the kindest thing would be to pts.

Johnny went to sleep today after enjoying lots of treats and cuddles. I'm heartbroken but hopefully in time I will remember it was the right thing for him.

Didn't help with the yard "experts" and their helpful comments about how he "isn't that bad" and its "such a shame" to pts as he is only 6. Someone even commented 30 mins before the vet came and asked "what about being a companion"..... Jesus......

Anyway..... he is galloping around up there eating everything and anything

 

[PapaverFollis]

I'm so sorry for your loss, Dyllymoo. But a very brave decision and I think the right one. Your yard "experts" need to go have a good long hard look at themselves.

Look after yourself. X