Rosette stealers !!!!!

[orionstar]

Showing has to be the one and only area of equestrianism I have tried at and did reasonably well at, In my mind this is county level reserve in hand champion, several 1st's in hand and ridden, then come across the judges who dont give a fig whats in front of them, but in their world they are semi professional or professional. The horses could attempt to dance on the judges head, be completely unable to manage a trot up due to their size, kick at least three other horses in the ring and rear repeatedly through out the whole show, but still get a red rosette. I once seen a Coloured best coloured and markings go to a warmblood with a splash of of white on one side of it's neck in a line up that was bidding for a BSPA place, so I dont do it any more.

 

[Moomin1]

Showing has to be the one and only area of equestrianism I have tried at and did reasonably well at, In my mind this is county level reserve in hand champion, several 1st's in hand and ridden, then come across the judges who dont give a fig whats in front of them, but in their world they are semi professional or professional. The horses could attempt to dance on the judges head, be completely unable to manage a trot up due to their size, kick at least three other horses in the ring and rear repeatedly through out the whole show, but still get a red rosette. I once seen a Coloured best coloured and markings go to a warmblood with a splash of of white on one side of it's neck in a line up that was bidding for a BSPA place, so I dont do it any more.

That would be classed as a coloured horse though.

 

[Moomin1]

Not sure if quoted or not - but re the lead rein class - it was a lead rein rider class , as I said in my first post not lead rein pony - it was judging the rider not the pony. There was also very novice rider, and novice rider for those just off . The lead rein pony classes were separate.

Yes this is what I was meaning too - most of the classes in my local shows in the past have been aimed at lead rein riders.

 

[Nativelover]

I have experienced this many a time, when getting back into competing as an adult a few years ago, I thought it best to go local and amateur level so I could hopefully climb the ranks and end up county level and the dream of HOYS etc. well imagine how disheartening it is to do all the prep, entry fees etc to see a producer turn up. Not with a novice horse, but a seasoned HOYS regular. Of course they won, but what's the point in that????? This was at trailblazers aimed at grass roots level, now that was pot hunting!

 

[Toby_Zaphod]

At local level the show secretary needs to grow a set & bar some competitors & horses from certain classes when they are know they are no longer novices or should be competing at a different level. It's unlikely that this will happen though. These isues have been around for years & will continue to be there in the future.

 

[swilliam]

I'm chair of our local roding club. Anyone who competes on the lead rein is not allowed to compete off it, except in the walk and trot class. We try to make sure that that class is restricted to novice combinations, but sometimes have to trust that people are telling the truth. We have asked riders to leave the ring in the past, when we know they are not.

 

[OldNag]

A few weeks back at a show we were at, a girl did the 70cm open, came out off that ring and went straight into the 50cm novice....

I have heard her referred to as a pot hunter before and can see how she got her rep.
She will do three or four different heights and it isn't fair on the kids. doing the 45 to have her in that when she does 75 or more at the same event.

We have a local show near us that is fairly early on in the season. A few years back I took daughter in the lead rein and found we were in there against a lot of county standard entries....

At same show other daughter did first ridden on her patently safe trust- with-your-kids'-lives pony. She isn't a show animal so I didn't expect her to be placed but I was annoyed to find ponies being placed who had bucked and misbehaved in the ring. Not my idea of a first ridden!

 

[Red-1]

I don't blame the riders, I blame the rules.

Our local show also has a rule about if you enter the beginner classes you can't do the bigger ones on the same horse.

With eventing, SJ and Dressage there are rules as to what the horse/rider has won dictating what they can do.

Maybe the organisers could make similar rules?

I know that with dressage in particular, we don't compete that often but are successful at a range of levels. If I am busy in the afternoon we do an early class, and if we are busy early on we do a later class. We are eligible and capable of either end of the day. To me it is about socially attending, the art of producing my horse to be ready at the right time etc.

If the rules for showing, eg. if entering the lead rein rider then not able to do jumping, or bigger showing, then that would satisfy most people.

As for the riding horse/hunter question, I have competed a borrowed horse which did both at a reasonably large local show. My horse had been cast in the stable the night before, and the owner of the horse said I could borrow hers and kindly said I could do a non jumping class, and she did working hunter. That was because I was so disappointed that although my horse was OK, he had knocked his leg, so despite all my prep we could not have otherwise gone.

The horse won both, as he had a leg at each corner, was correctly produced, and well ridden. There were flashier horses there, and ones more true to type, but many were tense, ridden without forward flow etc. We were not pot hunting any more than any competitor, just two hard working people, out for a social day and to do as well as we could.

Funnily enough the "pot" I won was sponsored by the parent of one of the other competitors, they had named the trophy after themselves, it was HUGE. They had bought a fancy pants horse, had all the gear, and were looking forward to winning the big, self named trophy. I did not resent them or their fancy pants horse, complete with trainer as I climbed aboard my borrowed horse in my standard pony club attire, any more than I resent competing against the Whitakers in lower SJ, or Oliver Townend at Novice eventing. If they are qualified to compete they add to the competition.

I have been "pipped" eventing more times than I care to remember by household names. I love it, hey, if you have to be beaten you may as well be beaten by a pro.

Maybe if people don't like the rules they could run a show for locals, with strict rules? Or suggest rules to local show committee? Sponsor a class?

 

[ester]

That would be classed as a coloured horse though.

yes but the class she is talking about - coloured and markings is supposed to be judged mostly on quality of markings!

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

I don't blame the riders, I blame the rules.

This ^

As a 'retired' producer, when we were competing on the national circuit, we used to still go out and support our local shows.
However, as they were so local, I would usually drag out a complete novice or newly broken horse/pony and let my daughter have fun with her PC pony (which was by no means county level.
Well turned out as we had the gear and daughter rode nicely, tho we still got brick-bats from some as 'pot hunters'.

The most laughable was when I put daughter on a newly re-habbed off the track TB in the riding horse class. She was tiny on there (he was only 15.2 but she was just under 5ft at 15) and they duly won to my total amazement!
However, they were immacualtely turned out & he DID go well, tho I was biting my nails in case he got too excited in the go-round.

Every horse/pony has to start somewhere, however its usually better for them to have short trips out to start with.
Doing a local show a producer can find themselves with big egg on their faces tho, as judges can be much harder 'because' ...

Taking wembley ponies tho was always a no-no, unless we went to let their hair down and compete in SJ classes.

 

[jrp204]

At a fair-sized village show last year, the person who won the novice went on to win the open. I didn't know the person had entered the open as we went home (relative borrowed my horse) else I would have lodged a complaint. Sent an email asking for justification to this but never got a reply even though the committee acknowledged receipt. Needless to say, they won't get our support this year.[/QUOTE

I can't see how that combination have done anything wrong, unless the open class was before the novice. My daughter entered the novice ridden hunter class as it was the horses first go at it, he won so we entered him for the open too as we wanted him to get more experience, he didn't win it but was placed, not sure what you could complain about as he was eligible for both classes.

 

[elsielouise]

As a parent of a six year old boy who has no real interest in showing (fortunately) but who every now and then wants to enter a class when we are at a show, I now find myself discouraging him. TBF I am rubbish at turn out and haven't a hope of preparing his pony to the required standard and she is too big anyway.

However, what has worked for us is Pony Club. We have got to know other members and some of the shows, particularly where it's members only are brilliantly run with children really being expected to ride 'at their level'.

Children are resilient to a degree but I believe there is no point in setting them up for disappointment. Just find a venue/club where young children can take part at an appropriate level and enjoy the experience.

 

[fatpiggy]

Mm I'm not convinced that dressage isn't any less subjective tbh. The varying scores given out despite obvious standard differences is quite shocking.

Dressage is just as bad! I entered a local riding club dressage show, just for fun because my horse was too loopy in the ring, but I liked to do a broad range of things with her, and learning the test etc was good for us both. It was prelim 10 as I remember - the woman who one it warmed up outside the ring by doing 3 time changes in canter! I've no problem with people wanting ring experience, but do it hors concours in that case. The other competitors told me this particular woman was well known for it. Most of the other riders were just kids on their very ordinary ponies.

 

[Dannylandrover]

As another retired show pony producer, i used to feel aggrieved when competing with a total novice against folks i knew were county and above level. And when i started helping at our local show we put in the rules "the LR is judged on pony and rider suitability not turnout" and "if a pony/rider combination was ridden on LR in a class they stayed on LR whilst on showground". Or you state they are not to have won a rosette if its a beginners class.
I got moaned at when i won a novice WH class at a national show once because horse was 15 years old, but what they did not know is i had had to restart that horse after a 3 year break when he was turned away and left in a field, neither of us were very confident and needed a novice class.
We all have to start somewhere and need to encourage novices not scare them away.

 

[mastermax]

I can see this from both points of view but here is my case for opinion. I aquired a very pretty coloured horse quite a few months ago that had never been showing and had always evented. He had been due to be put down for reasons I wont go into but suffice to say I now have a beautiful, horse of lifetime that is fit, well and sound after a lot of blood, sweat, tears and expense.
We decided to take him in hand showing to our local show as due to my illness (I have Lupus, RA and kidney disease) I didnt feel ready to ride him in the class. He won the coloured, got placed in the other two but went on to win in hand champion. We were delighted.
A couple of weeks later we took him to the same venue but for an affliated BSPA show ad again he won in hand champion beating a top producer.
Yesterday he went back to the show and he won in hand champion and a friend of mine (young girl just left school so not a producer) rode him in two ridden classes, he won both of those and went on to win ridden champion. Very few people turned up to the show due to the previous days weather so there wasnt a huge amount of competition.
My dilema now is when I feel ready to ride him in a show and his canter is more balanced do I not go back to that lovely, small show for fear people will think I am a pot hunter or do I overface myself at bigger shows that the organisers arnt aware of my disabilities? Basically do I not go where I'm comfortable just because my pretty horse has won there before. I dont want to take him back as would hate people to think I was a rosette stealer.

 

[DragonSlayer]

At a fair-sized village show last year, the person who won the novice went on to win the open. I didn't know the person had entered the open as we went home (relative borrowed my horse) else I would have lodged a complaint. Sent an email asking for justification to this but never got a reply even though the committee acknowledged receipt. Needless to say, they won't get our support this year.[/QUOTE

I can't see how that combination have done anything wrong, unless the open class was before the novice. My daughter entered the novice ridden hunter class as it was the horses first go at it, he won so we entered him for the open too as we wanted him to get more experience, he didn't win it but was placed, not sure what you could complain about as he was eligible for both classes.

Surely it's only fair that if you enter the novice and are planning on every other class afterwards you aren't a true novice? Not fair on those who ARE true novices, is it? Like some shows and has been mentioned, a restriction makes it more like a level playing field.

You aren't ever going to please everybody, that's for sure, but if the rules are tightened, maybe it would make it a little more encouraging for those setting out to be competing against those who are more likely at your level.

 

[conniegirl]

To be fair, a kid who can jump a 60cm course off the lead is certainly not within the realms of a lead rein class. Lead rein classes are designed for those who aren't ready to come off the lead rein.

No they are not! Lead rein classes are there to find the best leadrein pony. Provided the rider meets the age criteria then it doesn't matter how well they ride.

I think a lot of complaints re showing stem from a total ignorance of what the criteria for the class actually is along with the rules of the class

 

[ester]

It depends, novice rider or novice horse .

 

[conniegirl]

Surely it's only fair that if you enter the novice and are planning on every other class afterwards you aren't a true novice? Not fair on those who ARE true novices, is it? Like some shows and has been mentioned, a restriction makes it more like a level playing field.

You aren't ever going to please everybody, that's for sure, but if the rules are tightened, maybe it would make it a little more encouraging for those setting out to be competing against those who are more likely at your level.

This shows a total ignorance of the rules. A novice is a novice until the 1st of January after they denovice themselves. Each society has a different criteria for denovicing. Most normal are around winning an open class or a set amount of prize money.
My horse is next year would be eligible for novice classes still as whilst we have done open classes and novice classes he has yet to win an open class (we have a severe case of 2nd itis!)
Should he win an open class this season then he will still be eligible for novice classes for the rest of this season but not for shows after the first of jan 2016.
Novice classes go on the horse not the rider!

 

[eggs]

This is the trouble with unaffiliated showing / dressage/ jumping/ ht / etc anyone can enter unless the rules for that show are explicit as to what you can and cannot enter.

Unfortunately there will always be pot hunters but unless they are breaking the rules of that particular show there isn't anything you can do about it.

In the days when I used to go to RC unaffiliated shows there was usually something along the lines of 'if you enter the novice 70cm jumping that combination of horse and rider cannot enter the 1 m open'

 

[honetpot]

For local showing it think its a lot easier to make rules to edge out the pot hunters. One of our riding clubs does entries on a laptop, but I am sure it would be possible to do it on paper. For LR, no child can compete off lead rein unless it first year FR, or judge the class as novice and open, you can have some very tall children that look older than they actually are who can be novice unconfident riders.
As to adults, the combination can not enter the class once they have won it once, at local level this should be pretty easy to police unless you get someone from outside the area, but simple question on the entry form, 'has this combination won in any affiliated competition?' perhaps would make them think.
When my children were young we used to do showing as a bit of fun, we used to go to local shows and sometimes do the bigger shows. We tried never to do the same shows every year, there was a particular show we would only go once with a new pony as it was very novice, my children we taught that it better to be placed against good competition than win where there is none. We were never going to do well top level, and there are a lot of people who have spent a lot of money and want to have a crack at winning, so they go down a level which I can understand for children but not adults. Its supposed to be a competition.
Affiliated showing is a whole different matter, as soon as they make a rule their is someone whose 'job' it is too twist it to make it fit for them and the use of databases for results should be used more to watch competitor and judging patterns. The trouble is they do not treat like a proper sport.

 

[Nancykitt]

Something I can't understand is why the more successful riders - of the type described in many of the responses here - get so much pleasure from beating local 'have a go' riders. I am not competitive myself but if I was winning every class at local level I can't think why I'd want to carry on doing that; surely it feels better to get placed 6th in a big class in a county show than 1st in a little local show against inexperienced riders (and horses)? Where's the pleasure in thrashing a newcomer? Of course they may be 'eligible' to enter these classes, but I can't personally understand what pleasure is derived from wiping out the competition when you really should be doing something more challenging.

My brief encounters with dressage have led me to believe that this is no better. Our local RC used to have a Beginners' Prelim class designed to encourage newcomers - they also had a normal Prelim class, then Novice and so on. I decided to enter the Beginners class and was very, very nervous but gave it my all...the class was won by a very experienced rider complete with spurs and seasoned dressage horse. Other competitors included people who had previously competed at Elementary level. I got absolutely slaughtered and was even more devastated when my test sheet included the comment 'Lovely horse, shame about the riding'! The RC was constantly complaining that not enough people were 'getting into dressage' - quite frankly, if that's the way absolute newcomers are treated, I'm not surprised!
And that's the thing - the local shows need competitors in order to survive. I wouldn't go to my local show because I know that the competitors include instructors and seasoned showing people on the County circuit. How many other people are staying away because of pot-hunters?

 

[conniegirl]

Something I can't understand is why the more successful riders - of the type described in many of the responses here - get so much pleasure from beating local 'have a go' riders. I am not competitive myself but if I was winning every class at local level I can't think why I'd want to carry on doing that; surely it feels better to get placed 6th in a big class in a county show than 1st in a little local show against inexperienced riders (and horses)? Where's the pleasure in thrashing a newcomer? Of course they may be 'eligible' to enter these classes, but I can't personally understand what pleasure is derived from wiping out the competition when you really should be doing something more challenging.

My brief encounters with dressage have led me to believe that this is no better. Our local RC used to have a Beginners' Prelim class designed to encourage newcomers - they also had a normal Prelim class, then Novice and so on. I decided to enter the Beginners class and was very, very nervous but gave it my all...the class was won by a very experienced rider complete with spurs and seasoned dressage horse. Other competitors included people who had previously competed at Elementary level. I got absolutely slaughtered and was even more devastated when my test sheet included the comment 'Lovely horse, shame about the riding'! The RC was constantly complaining that not enough people were 'getting into dressage' - quite frankly, if that's the way absolute newcomers are treated, I'm not surprised!
And that's the thing - the local shows need competitors in order to survive. I wouldn't go to my local show because I know that the competitors include instructors and seasoned showing people on the County circuit. How many other people are staying away because of pot-hunters?

It's a shame you were treated like that at dressage but re showing. I was at a show at the weekend stewarding. The show has a whole ring for begginers and novices and if u enter a class in that ring you can't do any classes in any other showing ring on that day. The vast majority of those classes were empty. At most the classes had one or 2 in it. The organiser is not running them next year due to lack of entries.
I'm judging at her novice show next weekend and again if entries don't pick up from the last one she won't be running anymore!
So use them or lose them! Show organisers can't keep running classes for one or 2 entries!

 

[Clannad48]

Ok so here is the view from what someone who had her daughter called, to her face, a 'pot-hunter' Yes we have what some people could consider a 'flashy warmblood' (here read dumbblood) who after being on box rest for many months due to a multple fracture to the splint bone, was entered for a local dressage comp.

Now we were only in the warm up arena when somebody decided that it was appropriate for them to rant at my daughter over her being a 'pot-hunter' and should be ashamed of herself. Now me, being angry mum, waded in and pointed out that if she had bothered to check, would have seen that my daughter was entered 'HC' and therefore was not pot-hunting at all.

We had been on the receiving end of other real 'pot-hunters' over the years and have always entered, what for us could be considered inappropriate classes as 'HC'.

Now she competes in the friendly, welcoming world of Endurance. Such a different atmosphere.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

It is soul destroying my friends little girl spent ages getting her pony ready ( typical normal first ridden) looked immaculate, pony behaved great and was placed last behind lots of long legged pigtailed serious showers. With naughty poncy types it drives me mad

It is very annoying but actually I think the show organisers are to blame. I was judging at a RC show earlier in the year with a similar walk & trot class. Entrants were not allowed to enter other ridden classes, except best condition. The judge could also have exercised some discretion about who they gave the rosettes too. It is always possible to ask the riders questions about who got pony ready for the show, where the child normally rides etc and in a W&T class give places to the genuine beginners.

 

[sultana]

We have a local family who are branded as 'pot hunters' and IMO deserve the title - not only in showing but also in dressage. They have some nice horses and have been part of riding clubs for years - having had years of lessons ect. Nice riders, (as in ability not personality!!) They never compete above pre lim level dressage and mainly win. I often wonder to myself what they actually feel or get out of it? The same tests over and over and over again for years - how boring! But each to their own and if the hundreds of rosettes make them happy then so be it - but I feel sorry for the beginners who feel bad for not doing so well against them.....

 

[HBB]

A few weeks back at a show we were at, a girl did the 70cm open, came out off that ring and went straight into the 50cm novice....

I have heard her referred to as a pot hunter before and can see how she got her rep.
She will do three or four different heights and it isn't fair on the kids. doing the 45 to have her in that when she does 75 or more at the same event.

We have one like that here too, win's 50cm, 60cm, 70cm and 80cm classes at most shows she attends. It's quite vulgar but that's unaffiliated classes for you and weak management. In my day, the show organisers would have told you to move up a level.

 

[ester]

I have to mention that being a show organiser is a nightmare, and keeping everyone happy is impossible. Essentially they are running shows to make money and classes/rings that are not well supported will not continue to be run as conniegirl says. You are also reliant on your judge to make sensible decisions and your competitors to read the schedule. I was at a show last week where the front of the schedule said for riders/handlers over 16 years of age - there were several that were not, including it was discovered at the end of the day champion in the workers ring. Too late to do anything then . I also had a kid on a plaited welsh Ax arab in the M+M workers :rolleyes3:. I think most had a nice time though .

 

[hollyandivy123]

from my perspective the best thing about pot hunters is when you beat them, especially on a Therwell type horse/pony, trust me that is so much fun i have had someone complain to British Dressage about me as i had beaten them in a prelim how could their horse with this breeding blah blah................etc etc be marked lower than mine!!!

The judges do have to hold some responsibility, and mark to the class the are judging, the worse for me is "family horse/pony", i have judged these they are a nightmare, if you have loads on pinging ponies which can not be ridden by everyone.

 

[Goldenstar]

We have a local family who are branded as 'pot hunters' and IMO deserve the title - not only in showing but also in dressage. They have some nice horses and have been part of riding clubs for years - having had years of lessons ect. Nice riders, (as in ability not personality!!) They never compete above pre lim level dressage and mainly win. I often wonder to myself what they actually feel or get out of it? The same tests over and over and over again for years - how boring! But each to their own and if the hundreds of rosettes make them happy then so be it - but I feel sorry for the beginners who feel bad for not doing so well against them.....

Why should compete at a higher level they if they don't want to .
In my book if a class is 'open ' it's open if you don't like that don't go .
What they get out of it is up to them .
I just don't understand your attitude to this all at all but I know it exists because it is what stops me going to shows for fun .