Rosette stealers !!!!!

[Racergirl]

I always remember the quote from a lovely little book"The Art of Showing" with beautiful 1950's photos.
"Teach your child to admire beautiful ponies and good riders, but always love your own pony best".

I do agree with the posters who feel you compete against yourself.

I love this!!

For me essentially showing is an excuse to make my pony look pretty, have a nice day in the sunshine with him, have a couple of people say how lovely he is/can't poss be 22, get a nice photo of him looking shiny and any rosette is a bonus. That is because he is what he is and I don't think it's a personal reflection on either of us if something is better conformed or goes better than him. Much more competitive dressage as that is a judgement on how good my schooling is .

That's how I was with all of mine - it's an excuse for a fun day out, it cost us a fortune as I didnt have transport at the start, and yes, I've been guilty of late entering classes just to go home with a rosette - if I've had a 4am start, I think I deserve at least one!!!

I run a show with my friends and we have a ring for ex racehorses. Our first class is for total novices who haven't been to more than two shows ( I think - off the top of my head I can't remember what it is, we changed it after no entries last year!) class two is for intermediates and also has a limit on how much they can have done. We rely a lot on people being honest about how much they have done, but we also have a rule that you can't enter both. Anyone can enter the open classes, that's the whole point of it being an open - but you cannot enter class one and two ( or the equivalent ridden class)

Far as I'm concerned, I agree with the others on here - there are very specific types for each showing class and as long as you accept that your horse isn't Nececcarily going to be the best then you can have a lot of fun.

Isn't showing all about trying not to drop bacon juice on your jods anyway?

 

[Doormouse]

At a fair-sized village show last year, the person who won the novice went on to win the open. I didn't know the person had entered the open as we went home (relative borrowed my horse) else I would have lodged a complaint. Sent an email asking for justification to this but never got a reply even though the committee acknowledged receipt. Needless to say, they won't get our support this year.

Actually I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I'm sure the horse was a novice and clearly a very nice well behaved one, no reason it shouldn't go into the open class and if it was nicer and went better than the open horses then no reason at all it shouldn't win that too.

 

[Nancykitt]

Erm, are competitions meant to be a 'level playing field'? Surely the idea is that the best on the day wins.
This is from someone who hasn't won a rosette since 2013! I was third from last in a BE100 on Sat. I was certainly not the third worst rider, and my horse jumped with ease, and was vastly more relaxed in the warm ups. I had an amazing day and was delighted.
I used to do a little showing with a hunter pony. Again I felt happy to be just behind the house/ rihs ponies in most line ups.

By 'level playing field' I meant of a reasonably similar standard. That is true of many competitive sports. If everyone can go everywhere and compete in everything then it can't be denied that this has an impact, especially on those who will then have absolutely no chance of winning anything ever.
If you are competing at B£100 then you are already way, way above the level that many riders will ever reach. I could train every day for the next five years and not be within a sniff of BE80, let alone BE100. I don't know for sure, but would I be right in saying that pot-hunting is rarer in eventing anyway, because of the way that it is structured?
I suppose the equivalent of what I'm talking about is someone who had been successful at BE Novice turning up at our local hunter trials day and doing the 2'6" class there.

This thread has made me think about the whole 'winning or the taking part' debate. For some people, including yourself, it would seem, it's very much about the taking part. For others it's definitely about being the best. My friend knows someone who competes at county level and is successful, but was putting photos on facebook of a bunch of red rosettes she'd gained at a little local show. Friends were commenting along the lines of 'Aw hun, you did great!' - but come on, it's a local show and most of the people competing there don't go anywhere else.

My daughters competed for a few years and we have a box of rosettes upstairs; it was fun while it lasted but we found that the pot-hunters did spoil it when they turned up. I then took up hunting and have never looked back. On Sunday our hunt organised a fun ride; at one stage I was riding alongside one of the Masters, who has competed at Badminton; at another stage I was with a group of very successful showjumpers and then a young woman on her first ever group ride. I learn so much from everyone...no rosettes, but I came home feeling pleased that I'd sat a decent buck and tackled the gallops with a smile on my face!

 

[PaddyMonty]

but would I be right in saying that pot-hunting is rarer in eventing anyway, because of the way that it is structured?

Eventing is one of the few sports where the grass roots rider will find themselves up against the worlds elite in the same section. Whilst difficult it is extremely rewarding on the odd occasions that you are able to beat them. Level playing field? I think not. I had to fit in training my horse around a 50 hour working week and hiring/boxing to facilities. Compared to the setup of the pros.......

 

[ester]

Essentially if you want levels controlled and records kept for anything you go affiliated. Even though I think many that do any discipline would think that some people 'pot hunt' simply by staying at the same level (within their comfort zone) and doing very well even if the horse is capable of doing more, that is maybe less possible BS though with BE/BD you could do BE90/100 and prelims forever if you wanted.

 

[Nancykitt]

Eventing is one of the few sports where the grass roots rider will find themselves up against the worlds elite in the same section. Whilst difficult it is extremely rewarding on the odd occasions that you are able to beat them. Level playing field? I think not. I had to fit in training my horse around a 50 hour working week and hiring/boxing to facilities. Compared to the setup of the pros.......

But my understanding is that 'grass roots' eventing is done by very skilled riders...and what you are describing in terms of training your horse and getting to events suggests that this is a lifestyle for the very, very dedicated; I have a tremendous amount of respect for these people.

But what I'm talking about when I refer to 'local shows' is a few show rings on a field where lots of people hack to the venue, are decked out in second hand show gear, try their best, have a good time, accumulate points towards the end of season championship, attend the awards evening and never go to any other shows. It's not really possible to compare. What I'm saying is - what pleasure does a seasoned and successful show rider get from attending such a show?

 

[ester]

grass roots eventing is not always done by very skilled riders! , they usually have plenty of gear though .

 

[Nancykitt]

grass roots eventing is not always done by very skilled riders! , they usually have plenty of gear though .

Fair enough - they are probably very skilled compared to me, though (and certainly have a lot more bottle!) - and for this, I admire them!

 

[Goldenstar]

But my understanding is that 'grass roots' eventing is done by very skilled riders...and what you are describing in terms of training your horse and getting to events suggests that this is a lifestyle for the very, very dedicated; I have a tremendous amount of respect for these people.

But what I'm talking about when I refer to 'local shows' is a few show rings on a field where lots of people hack to the venue, are decked out in second hand show gear, try their best, have a good time, accumulate points towards the end of season championship, attend the awards evening and never go to any other shows. It's not really possible to compare. What I'm saying is - what pleasure does a seasoned and successful show rider get from attending such a show?

To take out a young horse
To give a low pressure outing to a higher level horse .
To compete older problem horses who they want to get back on track .
Or just because they want to go why should someone care what others think about their motivation if the horses is eligible for the class and the rider wants to go what does it matter .
Eventing you compete against very very good riders with backup and horse power most can't dream of all the time.
Yet you rarely hear people bleating on at BE in fact when ever splitting the sport into amateurs and pros has been discussed the 'bottom' has said clearly they don't want that .
Why ? I think in part the three phase nature of the sport makes you focus very much on your own performance as it's hard to get all three right in one day .

 

[Nancykitt]

OK, so pot-hunting is perfectly acceptable.

I'm not good enough to compete at anything but the most basic level - but if the most basic level is open to absolutely everyone there's not much point in bothering as I'm going to be outclassed time after time. I clearly did the right thing by moving on to something else.

But as for 'taking out a young horse' or 'giving a low pressure outing to a higher level horse' - I remember one local show where a well-known producer turned up with a young Welshie in the M&M novice (I hasten to add that I wasn't competing). The pony was badly behaved throughout, rearing, bucking and spinning, cantered on the wrong lead twice and was placed first in a large class. Cue numerous complaints and the judge responded to someone by saying 'I was put in a very difficult position here.' There was a lot of very bad feeling, crying, swearing, resigning, storming off - and the poor organisers were tearing their hair out as their only aim was for everyone to have a good day out.

Re. eventing - I still think that to event at any level you need to be pretty good. I don't think we can compare it to things like 'best figure of eight in trot' at a little local show where a young child on his/her first outing might be beaten by a much more experienced child who will then go on to do open showing classes. I think that this was the sort of thing that inspired this thread in the first place.

 

[PaddyMonty]

I think the real problem these days is the line between unaff and aff has ben very blurred.
Back when I stared competing aff SJ started at 1.20mtr, eventing was I think around intermediate level (was long time ago), dressage was a niche sport that never really got talked about.
Aff shows were everywhere. I can remember at least a dozen that used to happen locally, non of which now exist.
Unaff SJ went up to around 1.05/1.10 (3'6" to 3'9") usually ending in a chase-me-Charlie which would normally have a final height of 5 foot or more. Standards were expected and I don't remember anyone just going for a nice day out. You went out to win even if you didn't stand a chance. It was possible to compete at your chosen level pretty much every weekend (except winter which was for hunting) without traveling more than 15 miles.

Fast forward to today. The cost of running a show has gone through the roof no matter what level and the number of shows is a fraction of what it used to be. Unaff SJ rarely goes above 1 mtr and often only has 3 or 4 competitors in the last class. Aff SJ starts at 70cm, eventing at 80cm and dressage you don't even have to demonstrate the 3 basic gaits anymore. People still want to go out to shows at weekends but the number available has reduced so far that often the aff competitor is forced to compete unaff unless they want a round trip of 80 miles or more. Organisers are chasing numbers to make the show profitable.
At the same time society has changed it's stance from competing being the reward for years of hard work to it being a right for all no matter what level of effort they are prepared to put in.
When two worlds collide there is often conflict as a result.

 

[sasquatch]

Well that would be easily resolved by the organiser putting a money limit on the classes as most wouldn't have got to fox without winning some. Though you must know some very odd people as I don't know anyone competing even disco and above let alone fox!! That would jump unaff 70cm, that is just bizarre.

I'm in NI, so we have a slightly different system.

The show itself is just a jumping league, not even a proper show! Baffles me too, but I guess some people are after the rosettes. I do think, for the kids at least, they're encouraged by parents. I can understand wanting to get out jumping between shows, but don't see what's to gain by jumping all classes, or at a height that's much lower than you'd normally jump.

 

[Goldenstar]

OK, so pot-hunting is perfectly acceptable.

I'm not good enough to compete at anything but the most basic level - but if the most basic level is open to absolutely everyone there's not much point in bothering as I'm going to be outclassed time after time. I clearly did the right thing by moving on to something else.

But as for 'taking out a young horse' or 'giving a low pressure outing to a higher level horse' - I remember one local show where a well-known producer turned up with a young Welshie in the M&M novice (I hasten to add that I wasn't competing). The pony was badly behaved throughout, rearing, bucking and spinning, cantered on the wrong lead twice and was placed first in a large class. Cue numerous complaints and the judge responded to someone by saying 'I was put in a very difficult position here.' There was a lot of very bad feeling, crying, swearing, resigning, storming off - and the poor organisers were tearing their hair out as their only aim was for everyone to have a good day out.

Re. eventing - I still think that to event at any level you need to be pretty good. I don't think we can compare it to things like 'best figure of eight in trot' at a little local show where a young child on his/her first outing might be beaten by a much more experienced child who will then go on to do open showing classes. I think that this was the sort of thing that inspired this thread in the first place.

Your showing example apples only to showing which I hate with a passion so large I won't comment on it , and also not interested in the child side of things .
But where do you expect these good riders take their horses to compete for training ?
They give revenue to the shows and watching them ought to encourage others to up their game .

 

[huskydamage]

pot hunting - lol great phrasing.

It's happened to me as a kid and I 'happened' to others lol.

In the words of a friend of mine re: is this unfair to other people in the class- 'oh well they'll have to get better then wont they!'

You can't 'steal a rosette' . If there's no restrictions on the class anyone can have a go. Local shows are always like that I think.

 

[EquiEquestrian556]

I know exactly what you mean. About a year ago, my little sister entered a first ridden class, and was put at the bottom of the line, despite being the only true first ridden rider (it is for novices, right?!). Both she & her pony her beautifully turned out, her pony did a lovely little show, but no, the 12 year olds in double bridles who were waaayyy more advanced than first ridden won. My little sister, when very young, has also been to lead rein classes, again, far older girls, winning, and then going and doing intermediate classes OFF the lead rein - what?! That's why I'm put off showing, far too many pot hunters, even more than other disciplines.

 

[siennamum]

I think eventing the tables can actually be turned. The Badminton winning rider takes a green horse, or a box full to compete at 90/100 & gets roundly beaten by the one horse owning amateur who has plenty of experience at that level (on a cob, in 2nd hand gear in my case). Am I pothunting in that instance!!!! Do they care (probably not haha).

 

[siennamum]

I know exactly what you mean. About a year ago, my little sister entered a first ridden class, and was put at the bottom of the line, despite being the only true first ridden rider (it is for novices, right?!). Both she & her pony her beautifully turned out, her pony did a lovely little show, but no, the 12 year olds in double bridles who were waaayyy more advanced than first ridden won. My little sister, when very young, has also been to lead rein classes, again, far older girls, winning, and then going and doing intermediate classes OFF the lead rein - what?! That's why I'm put off showing, far too many pot hunters, even more than other disciplines.

But first ridden is not for novices. This children should have been eliminated if they were in double bridles, the class - like lead rein is all about the safety, suitability and conformation of the pony (and to a degree about the partnership as a whole)

 

[Nancykitt]

Your showing example apples only to showing which I hate with a passion so large I won't comment on it , and also not interested in the child side of things .
But where do you expect these good riders take their horses to compete for training ?
They give revenue to the shows and watching them ought to encourage others to up their game .

I'm not sure - but I do know that the 'child side of things' is very important to some people and indeed there are some tiny local shows here who very much target getting young children into showing. It's in everyone's interests to have lots of people getting involved but some will no doubt be discouraged if they are constantly 'outclassed'. For every person who is thinking 'This has really encouraged me to up my game' there may be one thinking 'This is a waste of time, I may as well not bother'. And some will never have the resources to obtain the top-class animals seen on the circuit, even though they may have the ability to ride them well.
My experience suggests that there's lots of reasons for people to hate showing, but it's still very popular so there is clearly some appeal there.

People compete for different reasons. My only rosettes have been for 'wrinklies' equitation' and 'handy horse', but for me this represented a major achievement. For others, these things would be laughable. That's probably why I get the satisfaction from hunting; it's very much about me aiming to be a better rider than I was last week. Sometimes I succeed and sometimes I don't, but no-one puts me down or humiliates me for trying. At the end of the season my husband was voted 'Most improved rider', which I think meant more to him than a year's worth of rosettes.

Perhaps some of the people who are dissatisfied with showing could look at other options where pot-hunting isn't a thing?

 

[EquiEquestrian556]

But first ridden is not for novices. This children should have been eliminated if they were in double bridles, the class - like lead rein is all about the safety, suitability and conformation of the pony (and to a degree about the partnership as a whole)

I realise it's not for true novices, more inexperienced yet competent young riders. The pony she was on was the safest of them all (the higher placed ones were spooking & bucking at points), and she had excellent conformation.

 

[conniegirl]

I know exactly what you mean. About a year ago, my little sister entered a first ridden class, and was put at the bottom of the line, despite being the only true first ridden rider (it is for novices, right?!). Both she & her pony her beautifully turned out, her pony did a lovely little show, but no, the 12 year olds in double bridles who were waaayyy more advanced than first ridden won. My little sister, when very young, has also been to lead rein classes, again, far older girls, winning, and then going and doing intermediate classes OFF the lead rein - what?! That's why I'm put off showing, far too many pot hunters, even more than other disciplines.

So because you dont understand the rules that automaticly makes those that do pot hunters?

First ridden is to find a pony suitable to take a child off leadrein, it is not a class for novice riders though there is an age limit on it. If that suitable pony happens to be ridden by a very good rider who can show the pony off to the best and the pony is the correct type, has manners to burn and goes correctly then it should win and it is fully within the rules.
If you want something judged on the rider alone then go for an equitation class.

 

[ester]

OK, so pot-hunting is perfectly acceptable.

I'm not good enough to compete at anything but the most basic level - but if the most basic level is open to absolutely everyone there's not much point in bothering as I'm going to be outclassed time after time. I clearly did the right thing by moving on to something else.

But as for 'taking out a young horse' or 'giving a low pressure outing to a higher level horse' - I remember one local show where a well-known producer turned up with a young Welshie in the M&M novice (I hasten to add that I wasn't competing). The pony was badly behaved throughout, rearing, bucking and spinning, cantered on the wrong lead twice and was placed first in a large class. Cue numerous complaints and the judge responded to someone by saying 'I was put in a very difficult position here.' There was a lot of very bad feeling, crying, swearing, resigning, storming off - and the poor organisers were tearing their hair out as their only aim was for everyone to have a good day out.

Re. eventing - I still think that to event at any level you need to be pretty good. I don't think we can compare it to things like 'best figure of eight in trot' at a little local show where a young child on his/her first outing might be beaten by a much more experienced child who will then go on to do open showing classes. I think that this was the sort of thing that inspired this thread in the first place.

Bad judging is different to pot hunting though, I wouldn't think they went to win if they thought it would be that badly behaved and it was clearly young and a novice so in the right class.

 

[Nancykitt]

So because you dont understand the rules that automaticly makes those that do pot hunters?

First ridden is to find a pony suitable to take a child off leadrein, it is not a class for novice riders though there is an age limit on it. If that suitable pony happens to be ridden by a very good rider who can show the pony off to the best and the pony is the correct type, has manners to burn and goes correctly then it should win and it is fully within the rules.
If you want something judged on the rider alone then go for an equitation class.

But it seems that the higher placed ponies did not have manners to burn. I think that's the sort of thing that gets people down.

At some local shows, things don't work both ways. So, for instance, a very successful show rider will wipe the board and the general attitude is that the others should be encouraged to up their game. But in the same shows I've seen equitation competitors in pelhams when the rules state 'snaffles only', enormous maxi-cobs in the 'show cob max 15.1' class and ponies in novice classes who are known not to be novices but the owners basically lie. It seems that anything goes, really.

 

[Nancykitt]

Bad judging is different to pot hunting though, I wouldn't think they went to win if they thought it would be that badly behaved and it was clearly young and a novice so in the right class.

It was certainly bad judging but there were a lot of politics involved...and the rider in question does not go anywhere without the intention of coming away with 1st. The way she was celebrating you'd have thought she'd won at HOYS - which only served to wind up the other competitors even more!
I don't know how it's possible to avoid this sort of thing but I did notice that the organisers put something on the programme asking people to 'enter a class in the spirit in which it is intended'. I don't think it would have stopped this particular competitor though.

 

[minesadouble]

Bad judging is indeed totally different to pot hunting. At our show we have this season introduced one ridden class and one in hand class only open to those who have hacked or led their horse to the show in order to encourage the local riders. However believe me we appreciate EVERY entry no matter what level. Without good entries we could not run. Our shows cost over £1,000.00 to put on, with rosette bills, portaloo, insurance, first aid, travel expenses for judges, judges & stewards lunches and gifts.
We charge £8 per class or £6 for those entering 4+ classes. If we get bad weather conditions we may struggle to break even. We don't want to deter ANYONE from entering - low entries would prevent us from running any more shows. Speaking as a show organiser it is very disheartening to hear whinges about judging etc. especially when they are often unwarranted.
If you are going to show you have to accept that you will have good days and bad days, not every judge will love your horse and if you can't deal with that then maybe showing is not for you.

 

[Nancykitt]

Minesadouble, I applaud you for putting on the classes for truly local riders!
And I do get what you're saying, really I do. But you must admit that some of the stories here aren't great. The people I felt most sorry for in my story re. the novice Welshie were the show organisers.
I have acknowledged that showing isn't for me...in a way, it's a pity because I would love to support my local riding club and to me it's as much about bringing young people into the fold as anything else. But I'm sure that the local RCs can do without people like me!

 

[spottybotty]

On to judge bashing now! There is a total misconception about showing on this thread. I judge at my local Riding club shows, Pony club Open show and Riding school show. I get asked back time and time again. I tend to get the Kids ring and try and encourage them as much as I can. Those that put effort in are rewarded. Perhaps some of the complainers could volunteer to steward at their local riding club and spend a day with the Judge and learn what showing is really all about.

 

[Nancykitt]

Just to clarify, Spottybotty, my story was more to do with pot-hunting than 'bad judging'; that particular judge has a good reputation. The point was that he was, indeed, put into a very difficult position when the producer entered the class.

There are excellent judges and there's bound to be a few bad judges.

Another story - a few years ago one of the judges at a local show couldn't make it and they got someone in at the last minute who worked at the feed merchants and had never judged before. She put the very flashy horse and successful rider second to an ordinary looking pony who had done a nice show. Cue much swearing and shouting from the 2nd placed rider about how the judge clearly didn't know a thing! All onlookers were totally bemused; what people remember about that day is not whether the judge was right or wrong but the dreadful behaviour of the woman with the blue rosette, whose attitude towards the judge was not acceptable at all.

 

[conniegirl]

Just to clarify, Spottybotty, my story was more to do with pot-hunting than 'bad judging'; that particular judge has a good reputation. The point was that he was, indeed, put into a very difficult position when the producer entered the class.

There are excellent judges and there's bound to be a few bad judges.

Another story - a few years ago one of the judges at a local show couldn't make it and they got someone in at the last minute who worked at the feed merchants and had never judged before. She put the very flashy horse and successful rider second to an ordinary looking pony who had done a nice show. Cue much swearing and shouting from the 2nd placed rider about how the judge clearly didn't know a thing! All onlookers were totally bemused; what people remember about that day is not whether the judge was right or wrong but the dreadful behaviour of the woman with the blue rosette, whose attitude towards the judge was not acceptable at all.

sorry but it still sounds like a crap judge. The judge was not put in an awkward position by anyone provided she judged what was in front of her not the face on top of the pony. If I were judging she would have been last no matter how well the horse was put together because I cannot stand ridden horses that do not have even basic manners and I dont pander to faces.
She put herself in the awkward position and consiquently ended up with bad feeling.

 

[Nancykitt]

I completely take your point, conniegirl; some people were saying that the producer would surely have understood that she didn't deserve to be placed. But apparently there is a long and complicated story behind it all. The whole thing was quite unpleasant and it's the sort of situation that no organiser of a local show would want.

 

[WelshD]

sorry but it still sounds like a crap judge. The judge was not put in an awkward position by anyone provided she judged what was in front of her not the face on top of the pony. If I were judging she would have been last no matter how well the horse was put together because I cannot stand ridden horses that do not have even basic manners and I dont pander to faces.
She put herself in the awkward position and consiquently ended up with bad feeling.

To be fair though we don't know anything about the rest of the class - for all we know the Welshie may have been streets ahead of the others even with the manners (and it WAS a novice class) taken in to account. Having seen patchy 'Dartmoor' ponies, jumping ponies with scarred legs, stargazers with ewe necks, ponies with collapsed crests and lame ponies in the M&M classes locally all with their owners no doubt absolutely assured of their right to be in the class it does make you wonder what the rest of the line up was like!