SACKED

[Tiddlypom]

4. Anyone employed as a primary school teacher who is filmed clearly and visibly losing their temper in public resulting in them hitting an animal several times should not be surprised if parents would rather not have their children taught by them in future.

 

[sbloom]

If said teacher had 15 years brilliant service and was a great teacher then I'd hope that there would be a sensible discussion about not losing a valued member of staff when it's not like people are falling over themselves to get into, and stay in, teaching. That we start to reverse the trend of parents not backing up the school when it comes to conflict, not trusting them.

 

[honetpot]

Yes I would imagine she is having a rubbish time of things and I feel sorry for her. Its a horrible situation for her to be in but even so, kicking a horse in public is only ever going to end one way.

She has not been convicted of anything, which makes this madness.
Lots of people do stupid things, particularly young men, and are convicted,
'There are over 11 million people in the UK with a criminal record. 3 Research4 shows that 1 in 3 men have a criminal record. Of those men with a criminal record, just over half of these had been convicted on only one occasion, and 85% were convicted before they were 30 years old.'
That's why I think she would have been better leaving her job, and moving on to another.

 

[ycbm]

4. Anyone employed as a primary school teacher who is filmed clearly and visibly losing their temper in public resulting in them hitting an animal several times should not be surprised if parents would rather not have their children taught by them in future.

That's in 1 or 2 and also covered by "proportionate" in 3.

 

[Upthecreek]

But we should also be mindful that this is about one woman. Who, i would imagine is having a pretty tough time right now.

I’m sure that she and her family have suffered horrendous abuse and I really feel for them.

 

[Clodagh]

I am pro hunting.
I have lost my temper before.
At the end of the day she bogged it. She had her days hunting ruined and took it out on her daughter’s (I assume) pony. What she did would have been slightly more acceptable if the pony was being bad to load, but it wasn’t.
She massively blew the situation and I’m afraid had the sacking coming. She took her fury with the situation out on an animal. Silly.

 

[Tiddlypom]

That's in 1 or 2 and also covered by "proportionate" in 3.

4 didn't say that she fully deserved everything else that has come at her, though, which 1 and 2 do. It says that she should not be surprised at what happened, not that she deserves it all.

People can do very undesirable things that do not infringe formal 'rules'.

She can appeal if she feels that she was sacked unfairly. I would expect a school and/or educational trust to support a valued colleague who they thought had acted out of character.

 

[Rowreach]

There are three sets of responses to this.

1. Anyone who kicks a pony once in the belly and slaps its nose 3 times deserves everything coming to them no matter how bad that is.

2. Anyone who kicks a pony once in the belly and slaps its nose 3 times and is unlucky or stupid enough to get themselves filmed doing it deserves everything coming to them no matter how bad that is.

3. People should receive a punishment which is proportionate to the rules they can be proved to have infringed.

I am happy to be in group 3 and hope the people in groups 1 and 2 never have to live to experience the possible consequences of a society that lives by those rules.

3

 

[Upthecreek]

There are three sets of responses to this.

1. Anyone who kicks a pony once in the belly and slaps its nose 3 times deserves everything coming to them no matter how bad that is.

2. Anyone who kicks a pony once in the belly and slaps its nose 3 times and is unlucky or stupid enough to get themselves filmed doing it deserves everything coming to them no matter how bad that is.

3. People should receive a punishment which is proportionate to the rules they can be proved to have infringed.

I am happy to be in group 3 and hope the people in groups 1 and 2 never have to live to experience the possible consequences of a society that lives by those rules.

I don’t think anyone has said anything along the lines of 1 or 2 though. It would be pretty terrible to say that someone “deserves everything coming to them no matter how bad that is”.

And regarding 3, if her actions mean that she has breached the terms of her contract of employment dismissal is a proportionate punishment.

 

[Rowreach]

I don’t think anyone has said anything along the lines of 1 or 2 though. It would be pretty terrible to say that someone “deserves everything coming to them no matter how bad that is”.

And regarding 3, if her actions mean that she has breached the terms of her contract of employment dismissal is a proportionate punishment.

Re-read the first few posts on the thread and you’ll find several, and they weren’t the only ones

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

I can only repeat my view - I do feel that what was on the video wasn't pretty to watch, but far, far away from abuse of horses I have witnessed on many occasions unfortunately. But I also feel that her 'punishment' was ridiculously over the top. Hence my earlier comment wondering does she already have black marks on her record with the school and this was the last straw that broke the camel's back so to speak? But I am only guessing and doubt we will ever be privy to that information.

Unless she appeals of course, if it was only this one over blown incident I hope she does appeal successfully to be honest.

 

[Winters100]

If you were a bank manager and someone was being interviewed for a cashiers job but you knew they had robbed a bank in the past, would you employ them?
If you were the senior partner in a law firm and you knew that the person you were interviewing had been suspended whilst being investigated fraud would you employ them?
If you were the owner of a child care facility and someone applied for a job that you knew had lost their temper with an animal in their care. Would you employ them?

When there is any possiblity of a transference of risk you would have to ascertain that persons suitability for their role, or if the risks are significant enough to be a cause for concern.

No to all three I would have thought.

But do you seriously think that there is a risk, based upon this video, of this woman losing her temper in a school setting and hitting a child? I would have 0 worries if she was teaching mine. If others were foolish enough to tell their children and let the news leak to mine then I would probably be incredibly irritated to have to spend time thinking about a good way to discuss it with them, but it would not cross my mind that they might be at risk from this teacher, to me that is just a total exaggeration of danger. I do not in any way condone what she did, nasty and ineffective, but talking about a transference of risk is too much. She should clearly not be teaching how to handle ponies, but this does not mean that she cannot teach them to read and write.

Regarding would I hire her, well it would depend, and as others have said the question of would you hire someone is a very different issue to would you fire an existing employee. Sadly I think that this lady will find that people are reluctant, not because she poses a risk, but because she has become high profile so they may find objections from parents, or demonstrations from the anti-hunt lobby outside their school. This is what I find really sad about the situation, that the punishment is so out of proportion to the crime.

 

[ester]

It did take longer to get to this point than I thought it would.

 

[Upthecreek]

Re-read the first few posts on the thread and you’ll find several, and they weren’t the only ones

I have re-read them and yes some people have made unpleasant comments about the lady in question and some have said she deserved to lose her job, but I cannot see that anyone has said that she “deserves everything coming to her no matter how bad that is”. That is something else entirely.

 

[Tiddlypom]

A short fuse that you have demonstrated that you can't control is a short fuse. Who knows when something else might trigger it?

Primary school and nursery school teachers need to have endless patience.

In other careers, a short temper may not be such a hindrance, but it has no place when teaching at primary school level.

 

[palo1]

For those folks happy enough to see her sacked, there are also consequences for her family and possibly for those horses. This is something taken into account when a court of law judges and sentences someone but not in the court of social media. I wonder what the impact of this dismissal will be on her children, her partner, her animals? All of those potentially will be punished, possibly in a life-changing way and that surely cannot have been anyone's intention... I get that the anti-hunt lobby are single-minded and tunnel visioned but you would hope even they may have thought through their insistence on extreme sanction. I don't imagine CP will have really thought this through to any conclusion but if he has, well, that is an extraordinarily spiteful and dangerous road that he and others have walked down here.

I have heard some utterly vile things spoken by sabs/anti-hunt protestors including death wishes of course. Perhaps they mean it...

 

[wills_91]

A short fuse that you have demonstrated that you can't control is a short fuse. Who knows when something else might trigger it?

Primary school and nursery school teachers need to have endless patience.

In other careers, a short temper may not be such a hindrance, but it has no place when teaching at primary school level.

This. I am one parent who would not be happy to have someone who had acted like this teach my children. Had the pony been behaving like an arse I might have had more sympathy for her, as I am sure we have all been there but it wasn't and she lost control very quickly over nothing and that is not acceptable.

 

[Upthecreek]

For those folks happy enough to see her sacked, there are also consequences for her family and possibly for those horses. This is something taken into account when a court of law judges and sentences someone but not in the court of social media. I wonder what the impact of this dismissal will be on her children, her partner, her animals? All of those potentially will be punished, possibly in a life-changing way and that surely cannot have been anyone's intention... I get that the anti-hunt lobby are single-minded and tunnel visioned but you would hope even they may have thought through their insistence on extreme sanction. I don't imagine CP will have really thought this through to any conclusion but if he has, well, that is an extraordinarily spiteful and dangerous road that he and others have walked down here.

I have heard some utterly vile things spoken by sabs/anti-hunt protestors including death wishes of course. Perhaps they mean it...

Activists tend to hold extremist views and many have zero regard for the lives of people who oppose them. I’m sure the film was shared with the intention that the woman would face life-changing consequences. I would be very surprised if any that were involved in this feel any sympathy at all for this family. They will be delighted that someone involved in hunting has lost her job and rubbing their hands with glee at the negative publicity this has created for hunting.

 

[Sandstone1]

If he causes another Caroline Flack situation with what he has done then I can guarantee the bashing will be worse than being called a sanctimonious Pr!ck

But are you not doing the same thing to CP?

 

[YorksG]

Activists tend to hold extremist views and many have zero regard for the lives of people who oppose them. I’m sure the film was shared with the intention that the woman would face life-changing consequences. I would be very surprised if any that were involved in this feel any sympathy at all for this family. They will be delighted that someone involved in hunting has lost her job and rubbing their hands with glee at the negative publicity this has created for hunting.

I'm fairly sure that this was indeed the intended outcome

 

[Flame_]

she lost control very quickly over nothing and that is not acceptable.

We haven't seen the build up to the incident. When people endure being hounded, harassed, intimidated and provoked whilst trying to enjoy their leisure time, they must hold in a lot of justifiable hurt and anger. Of course it appears that she "lost it" quickly and over nothing when one frustration got too much. That's what happens, it's a strategy of trouble-causers.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Child protection or Position of Trust. Experts who have multi agency input (training providers/head teacher/police) and sit around the table and discuss the person of interest. They who have years of experience headed by a LADO (Local Authority Designated Officer) who chairs the meeting. Where every aspect of the person under scrutiny's life is examined from their home life, whether they have a criminal record, previous allegations made against them, previous work history, any additional information. All goes in the cooking pot. And out comes the outcome which is then acted on.

Before the meeting is held it has to be decided whether it meets the threshold. If it doesn't no meeting will take place but the head of the school may be advised on the actions he/she should take, and whether that is suspension, sacking or additional training. The head may wish to get additional information about the incident or talk to witnesses or whatever.

Its not for us to comment whether or not they are guilty or not. But its frustrating when people keep saying "they only got the sack because the hunt sabs caused them to lose their job" or "its because of social media" or "because the school felt under pressure due to the public outcry". All those statements are incorrect as the law and protocols don't work like that.

And people who say "its not right she lost her job, complete overreaction" are not party to all the facts. And not everything is black and white in life and there are reasons for everything. I am not suggesting there is no smoke without fire but we are not party to the facts so there may be every justification for doing what they have done, nobody knows.

I'm sorry but no LADO has ever watched a video of someone hitting or kicking a horse and decided that it is a Safeguarding Children issue.

 

[wills_91]

We haven't seen the build up to the incident. When people endure being hounded, harassed, intimidated and provoked whilst trying to enjoy their leisure time, they must hold in a lot of justifiable hurt and anger. Of course it appears that she "lost it" quickly and over nothing when one frustration got too much. That's what happens, it's a strategy of trouble-causers.

Fair point, I hadn't actually considered that.

 

[maggiestar]

We haven't seen the build up to the incident. When people endure being hounded, harassed, intimidated and provoked whilst trying to enjoy their leisure time, they must hold in a lot of justifiable hurt and anger. Of course it appears that she "lost it" quickly and over nothing when one frustration got too much. That's what happens, it's a strategy of trouble-causers.

I completely agree, the sabs were probably delighted to elicit such a reaction from her and I understand how frustrating it must be to have to deal with them. But she took it all out on an entirely innocent pony. Such mischannelled aggression and rage rings huge alarm bells for me. That said, I can't bear social media witchhunts or sanctimonious bullies. I hope if nothing else this episode will help her reflect on her temper and hopefully move on to happier times. Unfortunately social media is here to stay and this is a lesson for us all

 

[honetpot]

When I am at work I have my game face on, you can say just about anything to me, be as vile, abusive, and generally awkward as you like, and you will get a sweet smile, and a kind word. It's a performance. I would like to think I am reasonable in RL, but I am actually far more direct, and I swear a lot. My dad was a builder, in the house I never heard in swear, I once came up behind him when he was working with his labourer, and the language was foul, and he was very embarrassed.
Why is so difficult to believe that we behave differently in different situations, and act and speak differently depending on who we are talking to, and the context.

 

[milliepops]

When I am at work I have my game face on, you can say just about anything to me, be as vile, abusive, and generally awkward as you like, and you will get a sweet smile, and a kind word. It's a performance. I would like to think I am reasonable in RL, but I am actually far more direct, and I swear a lot. My dad was a builder, in the house I never heard in swear, I once came up behind him when he was working with his labourer, and the language was foul, and he was very embarrassed.
Why is so difficult to believe that we behave differently in different situations, and act and speak differently depending on who we are talking to, and the context.

This!
My work persona is quite different to my leisure time one, I'm different with my friends to with my horses and so on. Most people are capable of adapting to the role they are in at the time.

 

[scats]

When I am at work I have my game face on, you can say just about anything to me, be as vile, abusive, and generally awkward as you like, and you will get a sweet smile, and a kind word. It's a performance. I would like to think I am reasonable in RL, but I am actually far more direct, and I swear a lot. My dad was a builder, in the house I never heard in swear, I once came up behind him when he was working with his labourer, and the language was foul, and he was very embarrassed.
Why is so difficult to believe that we behave differently in different situations, and act and speak differently depending on who we are talking to, and the context.

I swear like a trouper and can be very direct. But the second I walked into the classroom I could switch that off no problem and be endlessly patient, avoid confrontation and never once let my language slip. Then I would walk into the staff room with my friends and go back to my default mode. I thought it was quite a normal thing to be able to do but apparently not.

 

[palo1]

Activists tend to hold extremist views and many have zero regard for the lives of people who oppose them. I’m sure the film was shared with the intention that the woman would face life-changing consequences. I would be very surprised if any that were involved in this feel any sympathy at all for this family. They will be delighted that someone involved in hunting has lost her job and rubbing their hands with glee at the negative publicity this has created for hunting.

Yes, you are right. That is a pretty unpleasant position to take of course and the consequences for her family and her animals are of no interest to those who want to see the headlines, create the witch hunt and see that individual destroyed. Grim. That isn't how a liberal democracy or even just decent adults are supposed to operate.

 

[Ceriann]

I'm sorry but no LADO has ever watched a video of someone hitting or kicking a horse and decided that it is a Safeguarding Children issue.

I think the stat guidance issued for schools by the DfE has a harms threshold for allegations against staff. You can meet this threshold in respect of actions outside work and the threshold also includes behaviour that indicates they may not be suitable to work with children. It’s pretty wide and understandably so. I have no idea if this was one of the issues this school considered when terminating this teacher’s employment but it would not have been an easy thing for the school to ignore if it was raised by parents. I would hope there is no LADO precedent on videos involving animal abuse.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

But are you not doing the same thing to CP?

yeah because im whipping up millions of
People to find out his address and where he is and working right now and sending people there ? lucky if I have ten followers on twitter. Then again I couldn’t tell you my log in so I think it would be rather hard for me to start a personal witch hunt ?