SACKED

milliepops said:
agreed.
Last week i was lucky to not get seriously hurt in a horsebox by a horse that got itself in a pickle. i kicked it. i whacked it. i was trying to stop a bad situation from turning into one where one of us died, and my puny body is not strong enough to simply overpower a big horse with no threats of any kind. It is not nice to think back on but in the heat of the moment only brute force was going to stop that from going seriously wrong. there are often mitigating factors so to say you'd never lay a hand on a horse is nuts. if i hadn't been prepared to do that i'd have just signed its death warrant.
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I have had horses in ditches and you do a lot to try and get them to try and get out before they get too exhausted and slip back in. Again if it was filmed it would look terrible.
 
palo1 said:
You are right that spending time with horses is a privelege. I think most of us know that. I don't want to excuse someone from hitting or being unfair to a horse at all but when you have finished your day's work and you head off into the vile weather to get the horse in for the night/for the vet/farrier/ to go to a training event and the cheeky so and so spends 15 minutes charging round in the mud, potentially a danger to themselves whilst pretending they have never seen a headcollar before or some other thing, you may find your temper frays and you hurl the headcollar into the wind and mud, swearing in frustration! When you take your horse to an event that you have worked hard to prepare for and horse decides that it doesn't particularly fancy doing that thing that day, you will wear it and smile; horses have off days after all. When the same horse then decides that even though it has always been a champion loader, today is a day when it doesn't want to load, or it wants to hook off in the direction of the children's collecting ring because a helium balloon just went over it's head, you will be aware that sometimes horses don't want to load because their training hasn't been complete or perhaps they are over-tired or even have something else physical that bothers them after work, but it probably won't mean that inside you are not hugely disappointed, frustrated and even, potentially irrationally cross.

Sometimes your horse may even slightly frighten you or put you in a dangerous situation - threatening to reverse into a ditch because of something you can't see or understand, or spinning round because there is a 'thing' - or maybe just not respecting being led and threatening to 'lose' you as you lead down the lane - perhaps he or she thinks they can get to the field or their dinner a bit quicker!! Fear is usually at the basis of anger and loss of temper. I defy anyone to ALWAYS control their fear, their frustration, confusion, their tiredness and other worries. We learn by our mistakes - hitting a horse just doesn't really work unless it is specific, very well timed and necessary for safety but I bet most horse people have done it. Sometimes it is the right thing to keep things safe; for example leading a horse that is careering around on the end of the lead rope - that might be due to poor training, lack of exercise/inappropriate feeding/poor handling etc etc. Those things need to be addressed. But in the moment when that horse is putting itself and the handler in danger, a reprimand with a stick or the flat of the hand to regain attention and safety is the right thing to do.

We always need a horse's respect and that doesn't ever come from abuse. But I think it is naive in the extreme to think that it is possible to never use a physical cue or reprimand that we may not want to use. I don't think in this instance the horse hitting was at all warranted; the woman lost her temper clearly. That isn't the way to handle a horse. Sadly it is sometimes the way some people handle life. I don't know what this woman was up against emotionally or mentally. There is no reason for her to hit the pony but there will be a reason why she lost the plot. Pony is fine I reckon - the woman is now in a bad place, worse than the moment before she hit the pony. I think a bit of proportion and compassion is a good thing too.
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The way that I see it is that owning/being responsible for any animal is a choice. The horse did not choose to belong to her and she did not have to buy it. If you're going to own an animal then it is your responsibility to meet that animals needs and treat the animal with respect. If you can't do that then don't have the animal, no-one is forcing her to own it.

In this particular incident, all the horse did was wander off. The same thing actually happened to me recently when I was going from bridle to head collar, horse decided to walk off mid-switch. I firmly brought her back, used a stern voice and tied her back up, she got the message, absolutely no shouting, hitting or punching involved. I don't think that saying she might have been in a bad place mentally really holds up, because you could excuse any form of abuse with 'you don't know what she is up against emotionally or mentally'.
 
v said:
God forbid we have flawed human beings teaching our children.
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Exactly, heavens when I was at boarding school many years ago now my friend was dragged out of the dormitory for talking after lights out and made to sleep on a table all night in a separate room. Now if that isn't child abuse I dont know what is, though nothing was done about it and there was plenty of other forms of child abuse that went on but we have managed to live to tell the tale.
 
milliepops said:
agreed.
Last week i was lucky to not get seriously hurt in a horsebox by a horse that got itself in a pickle. i kicked it. i whacked it. i was trying to stop a bad situation from turning into one where one of us died, and my puny body is not strong enough to simply overpower a big horse with no threats of any kind. It is not nice to think back on but in the heat of the moment only brute force was going to stop that from going seriously wrong. there are often mitigating factors so to say you'd never lay a hand on a horse is nuts. if i hadn't been prepared to do that i'd have just signed its death warrant.
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The difference here is that the horse did nothing wrong, it just wandered off. It wasn't behaving in a way that was threatening or putting any person or horse in danger.
 
ycbm said:
There were plenty of other horses hit with a whip during the last Olympics and at every other major equestrian event.

Like it or not, it is still routine in horse sport to hit horses with whips and in horse management to slap horses with a hand.

Losing her job and career is a disproportionate punishment for what she did, imo.
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That's fair enough to have as your opinion but comparing what was caught on video with over use of a crop or a single slap is disingenuous.
milliepops said:
agreed.
Last week i was lucky to not get seriously hurt in a horsebox by a horse that got itself in a pickle. i kicked it. i whacked it. i was trying to stop a bad situation from turning into one where one of us died, and my puny body is not strong enough to simply overpower a big horse with no threats of any kind. It is not nice to think back on but in the heat of the moment only brute force was going to stop that from going seriously wrong. there are often mitigating factors so to say you'd never lay a hand on a horse is nuts. if i hadn't been prepared to do that i'd have just signed its death warrant.
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I've been in a similar situation as well with a spooked Clydesdale about to crush me against a wall and she got the heftiest digs in the ribs that I could manage. She just about noticed and I never felt bad about it for a second. But if I had then gone round when she had settled and punched her in the face or kicked her to punish her? As happened in the video? That is very obviously not the same.
 
milliepops said:
I quite agree. i was on the floor with a horse trying to get through the partitions in a moving truck, and i could only imagine it getting into the living and jumping through the cab. or breaking its neck in the back. or mine. or both. My alternative to battering the horse back into his space was to shut the door and let him kill himself :(
when you have orgs like PETA then it's impossible to have a rational debate about things.
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Well done for doing what was needed in that moment. Thank goodness you were able to apply that understanding, however discomforting, as many people would have panicked and not have been able to prevent a tragedy - potentially both human and equine. It doesn't bear thinking about and I don't expect that was pleasant at all for either of you but both live to fight another day. Good call.
 
Miss_Millie said:
The difference here is that the horse did nothing wrong, it just wandered off. It wasn't behaving in a way that was threatening or putting any person or horse in danger.
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i agree, but my post was in response to people saying they would never lay a hand on a horse. sometimes you are left with little option. palo's post outlined others scenarios where that kind of black and white thinking doesn't help anyone.
 
Miss_Millie said:
The difference here is that the horse did nothing wrong, it just wandered off. It wasn't behaving in a way that was threatening or putting any person or horse in danger.
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Didn't even really wander off, it moved away from the child and walked right over to her. It was an absolutely bonkers way for her to react.
 
Roasted Chestnuts said:
I am, I’m training a youngster, so should I lose my job because he’s stood in my foot and I’ve smacked him to get off, I’ve been in a position of trust most of my life. Get a grip and stop being sanctimonious..
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Why on earth is it acceptable for you to smack a horse because you werent careful where you put your foot?! If my horse stands on mine, Ill swear to myself about how stupid I was and push the horse back, I dont punish it because of my error. Goodness me, so much wrong with the horse world :(
 
Miss_Millie said:
The difference here is that the horse did nothing wrong, it just wandered off. It wasn't behaving in a way that was threatening or putting any person or horse in danger.
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No-one is excusing what was done. Also we are not certain that the horse getting loose (in whatever circumstance) wasn't going to put someone or the horse in danger. You can't assume that at all. The response of the woman was wrong, no doubt. She should just have picked the horse back up and no fuss but she lost it for reasons that are not clear. I don't think she should necessarily have lost her job because of that single incident.
 
Miss_Millie said:
The way that I see it is that owning/being responsible for any animal is a choice. The horse did not choose to belong to her and she did not have to buy it. If you're going to own an animal then it is your responsibility to meet that animals needs and treat the animal with respect. If you can't do that then don't have the animal, no-one is forcing her to own it
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I can't help wondering if you've ever watched horses interacting with each other? "Respect" among horses is obtained by threat of violence and backed up with actual violence if the threat is not enough. Horse do actually understand threat as a training tool, and all people have done is use that understanding.
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ycbm said:
I can't help wondering if you've ever watched horses interacting with each other? "Respect" among horses is obtained by threat of violence and backed up with actual violence if the threat is not enough. Horse do actually understand threat as a training tool, and all people have done is use that understanding.
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Oh blimey @ycbm, put your tin hat on!!
 
MagicMelon said:
Why on earth is it acceptable for you to smack a horse because you werent careful where you put your foot?! If my horse stands on mine, Ill swear to myself about how stupid I was and push the horse back, I dont punish it because of my error. Goodness me, so much wrong with the horse world :(
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It's acceptable because if you're quick enough about it, you can stop the horse putting its entire weight onto your foot and breaking your toes or metatarsals.

It’s also acceptable, in my view, if the horse is being bolshy and invaded your space to tread on your foot. See above about how another horse would correct that error of judgement.
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palo1 said:
. I don't think she should necessarily have lost her job because of that single incident.
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But no one said it was because of that single incident. There may have been a whole host of other reasons that we are not party to and she may have already been warned about her behaviour but the leaked footage was the cherry on the cake and led to her dismissal.

You can't just sack someone for no reason. It would have to be a proper disciplinary where both sides get to put their sides of the story. Its not like the head saw the video and went in the next day and fired her. There would have been a lot of stuff that led to that happening that we don't know about.

Its not as black and white as people seem to think.
 
ycbm said:
It's acceptable because if you're quick enough about it, you can stop the horse putting it's entire weight onto your foot and breaking your toes or metatarsals.

It’s also acceptable, in my view, if the horse is being bolshy and invaded your space to tread on your foot. See above about how another horse would correct that error of judgement.
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it's also worth telling the horse about its error because they do learn how to not trample people who are close to them. I am not particularly deliberate about my feet with any except the youngest horses as the older ones have learned along the way that it's better to be as aware of my body as i am of theirs.
 
I have to admit that years ago I had a horse who loved to squash you against things like the fence or the stable wall. I assume it was malicious, but whatever it was it was highly dangerous. A much loved and respected old school type vet came out to do my horses vaccination and he asked me if I had any issues with my horse so I told him about him squishing me against things at every opportunity.

He told me next time he did it to stick the end of my bic biro into my young horses ribs. I did so and he jumped about four foot into the air because it hurt him. But he never did it again.

If I'd ignored the vet and spent the next 11 months of the horses life pushing him and slapping him and hitting him to get him away from me it would have been much worse (for both of us and I could have been seriously injured). Cruel to be kind comes to mind. But not the same as kicking and punching a horse.
 
Birker2020 said:
But no one said it was because of that single incident. There may have been a whole host of other reasons that we are not party to and she may have already been warned about her behaviour but the leaked footage was the cherry on the cake and led to her dismissal.
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There you go speculating again.

All anyone is saying on this thread is that the behaviour which was recorded does not warrant summary dismissal from her job.

The fact that you keep justifying it by saying there must be more to it says to me that you believe that it would be unfair too.
 
If everyone immediately lost their job for how they behaved once at a weekend and it was filmed, we wouldn't have any public services. For all we know there's a Mrs Smith who teaches Year 5 somewhere in the UK who's also a smackhead...

Trial by social media and sabs, and a school who has had to be seen to act on it. Awful situation really.
 
Birker2020 said:
But no one said it was because of that single incident. There may have been a whole host of other reasons that we are not party to and she may have already been warned about her behaviour but the leaked footage was the cherry on the cake and led to her dismissal.

You can't just sack someone for no reason. It would have to be a proper disciplinary where both sides get to put their sides of the story. Its not like the head saw the video and went in the next day and fired her. There would have been a lot of stuff that led to that happening that we don't know about.

Its not as black and white as people seem to think.
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Is this you not speculating again?
 
Tiddlypom said:
Why were the sabs filming there that day?

Now, while I know neither that hunt nor have any idea of what the local sabs get up to, I can hazard a guess.

They would not have been expecting to get the footage that they did, which was pure anti hunt gold. It would be to hope to add to the footage they have of hunts and their followers blocking roads to through traffic, which is pretty common.
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Same as any other trouble causing assholes - disrupt, irritate, violate, obstruct, judge and upset people trying to get on with a legitimate activity, then when those people do boil over (usually appearing totally inappropriately) make sure there's a camera pointing at them to show what big, bad, crazies they are.

This thing stinks and I'm sorry to hear that this lady's been sacked.
 
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