SACKED

LEC said:
I have had horses in ditches and you do a lot to try and get them to try and get out before they get too exhausted and slip back in. Again if it was filmed it would look terrible.
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Miss_Millie said:
I never said that she should have lost her job, what concerns me is that some people on here don't seem to think that what she did was abusive.

The RSPCA - "The footage was really upsetting"
The Pony Club - "We wholeheartedly condemn this behaviour".
Some members of the Horse and Hound Forum "this to me wasn’t animal abuse"
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But everyone here has agreed that what she did was wrong and 'abusive'. Various posters have articulated that the abuse perhaps wasn't 'serious' but it's unanimous I think that she did abuse the pony. No one has said there is any excuse for it, though there may be reasons - the two are different. There are different perceptions about how serious the filmed incident was in terms of abuse for sure but there is no one here that wouldn't agree the pony was poorly treated - ie abused.
 
Miss_Millie said:
Of course I have, but the dynamic between a herd of horses and a human directing/controlling a horse is completely different. Force can and should be used where appropriate, but there is a big difference between force and abuse.

I find the video particularly disturbing because I used to care for a horse who came from a home where she was hit around the head, as a result she was extremely head shy and scared of people going anywhere near her face. This was extra bad in the sense that she needed ointment applied to her ears on a daily basis for scabs, which was near impossible without getting your hand bitten off. It took me months of gently working with her to get her to trust me enough, to let me do this.

I have seen just how psychologically damaged a horse can be from being hit in the face, and it isn't pretty.
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Well the pony in the film clip wasn't headshy so perhaps he/she isn't regularly abused which is a good thing.
 
Cortez said:
Poor you. I defy you to train a horse to do pretty much anything useful and be handled safely without using the occasional negative reinforcement. Look at mares and their foals, look at any herd dynamic.
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a) If you hit an animal, that's positive punishment not negative reinforcement. You're adding an undesirable stimuli, not removing one.

b) I'm not a horse. Horses do not respond to people like they do to fellow horses. No horse I've ever worked with has looked at my hands and thought "ah yes that's a hoof so if I get hit by that, it's the same as being kicked by my herd mate"

c) If giraffes, elephants, lions, bears, zebras, and more can all be trained without positive punishment or even negative reinforcement in most cases - why can't horses?
 
Just to put this into context with a real life example;

I know of a support assistant who worked in a school for children with SEND, actually beavioural and emotional problems. The young man went on the staff Christmas night out and had rather more to drink than he could handle. Some of his colleagues then witnessed him verbally and physically assaulting a rough sleeper in the city centre. The incident was reported to the Headteacher who took it to the Governors, as a Safeguarding issue. The young man lost his job, after due process had been followed.

This behaviour was relevant to his employment because 1) the pupils at the school needed to know that the behaviour was inappropriate
2)The rough sleeper was by definition a vulnerable person 3) had the incident been reported to the police, the employee could well have been charged with breaking the law and punished accordingly 4) staff working with emotionally vulnerable children need to be trustworthy under all circumstances.

All very different from the incident that started this thread.
 
Honestly this makes me hopping mad, why can people not see what is at stake. Its not about a stupid woman hitting her horse, it's more than that. "there are consequences etc etc" We have time tested systems for doling out consequences when they are needed. Chris ******* Packham tweeting to his mob is not what our justice system is built on. If we are all happy for this woman to get these consequences then we all better make sure we never step out of line ever, against societal norms now or any possible future societal norms because the camera of the mobile phone Stasi is trained upon us.

When it becomes taboo to "be firm" with a horse then they'll be dragging this thread up as evidence of historical horse abuse and we'll be losing our jobs... brave new world.

What happened to a little forgiveness?

Who decides the "crimes" and the "consequences" required? At some point we'll all be on the wrong side of those decisions unless you are sprinting full pelt to the centre of that spiral as we speak...
 
stangs said:
a) If you hit an animal, that's positive punishment not negative reinforcement. You're adding an undesirable stimuli, not removing one. What are you on about?

b) I'm not a horse. Horses do not respond to people like they do to fellow horses. No horse I've ever worked with has looked at my hands and thought "ah yes that's a hoof so if I get hit by that, it's the same as being kicked by my herd mate" You, nor I, have any idea what a horse is thinking when he's looking at anything.

c) If giraffes, elephants, lions, bears, zebras, and more can all be trained without positive punishment or even negative reinforcement in most cases - why can't horses?
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Ever worked with a circus trainer? If you think that they train without negative reinforcement, well, you're adorable, as my American friends would say.
 
Miss Millie - you remind me of a lovely family who bought two easy horses from a riding school I taught freelance at - a mare and a pony.
How this family ADORED these horses. They were never abusive, they didn't even carry a whip, they didn't ever smack them (that would be abusive) or tell them off. They bonded with them, fed them treats, and loved them.

I was asked to help at the point where the mare had been diagnosed with a brain tumour as she had started rearing on leaving the yard. The family were so unlucky that the pony also had a brain tumour - and it napped and ran backwards. Both horses needed to be PTS as there was no other remedy.

Except there was - both horses were given back to the riding school where one smack on the bum cured the mare, and two smacks on the bum cured the pony. :D

Hurrah - no need for PTS.
 
PapaverFollis said:
Honestly this makes me hopping mad, why can people not see what is at stake. Its not about a stupid woman hitting her horse, it's more than that. "there are consequences etc etc" We have time tested systems for doling out consequences when they are needed. Chris ******* Packham tweeting to his mob is not what our justice system is built on. If we are all happy for this woman to get these consequences then we all better make sure we never step out of line ever, against societal norms now or any possible future societal norms because the camera of the mobile phone Stasi is trained upon us.

When it becomes taboo to "be firm" with a horse then they'll be dragging this thread up as evidence of historical horse abuse and we'll be losing our jobs... brave new world.

What happened to a little forgiveness?

Who decides the "crimes" and the "consequences" required? At some point we'll all be on the wrong side of those decisions unless you are sprinting full pelt to the centre of that spiral as we speak...
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Well said. In conversation with a great supporter of Chris Packham I was trying to unpick something around dogs/domesticated animals. It was an interesting conversation until that person just said that no-one should keep any animal 'subjected to our whims' and that they would be happy to film confrontation and release pets, farm animals, whatever. (Ironic really as CP is a great pet dog lover!) Truly, that sense of righteousness and entitlement to enact your will on others through any means and at any consequence and use of emotive social media and 'personal liberty' (to think and do exactly what you please) is terrifying. People seem to forget that we all exist within contexts that are the result of complex social and other interactions. You can't just lob metaphorical grenades into people's lives because you don't agree with their choices/behaviour. That is dangerous behaviour and a dangerous attitude to have.
 
Shilasdair said:
Miss Millie - you remind me of a lovely family who bought two easy horses from a riding school I taught freelance at - a mare and a pony.
How this family ADORED these horses. They were never abusive, they didn't even carry a whip, they didn't ever smack them (that would be abusive) or tell them off. They bonded with them, fed them treats, and loved them.

I was asked to help at the point where the mare had been diagnosed with a brain tumour as she had started rearing on leaving the yard. The family were so unlucky that the pony also had a brain tumour - and it napped and ran backwards. Both horses needed to be PTS as there was no other remedy.

Except there was - both horses were given back to the riding school where one smack on the bum cured the mare, and two smacks on the bum cured the pony. :D

Hurrah - no need for PTS.
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And let me guess: cured the brain tumours?
 
Shilasdair said:
Miss Millie - you remind me of a lovely family who bought two easy horses from a riding school I taught freelance at - a mare and a pony.
How this family ADORED these horses. They were never abusive, they didn't even carry a whip, they didn't ever smack them (that would be abusive) or tell them off. They bonded with them, fed them treats, and loved them.

I was asked to help at the point where the mare had been diagnosed with a brain tumour as she had started rearing on leaving the yard. The family were so unlucky that the pony also had a brain tumour - and it napped and ran backwards. Both horses needed to be PTS as there was no other remedy.

Except there was - both horses were given back to the riding school where one smack on the bum cured the mare, and two smacks on the bum cured the pony. :D

Hurrah - no need for PTS.
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I am genuinely at a loss as what you are trying to convey with this anecdote?
 
Shilasdair said:
And as a further point, it could be argued that riding a horse is abusive - it's certainly not good for the horse.

Is this really the path you all want to go down? Doesn't worry me - I don't ride my two.

Or is his different because you enjoy riding?
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I think the main difference, is that a load of sabs haven't taken video and created a media sh1tstorm, picketed our places of work and had a trial by media.
 
Shilasdair said:
Miss Millie - you remind me of a lovely family who bought two easy horses from a riding school I taught freelance at - a mare and a pony.
How this family ADORED these horses. They were never abusive, they didn't even carry a whip, they didn't ever smack them (that would be abusive) or tell them off. They bonded with them, fed them treats, and loved them.

I was asked to help at the point where the mare had been diagnosed with a brain tumour as she had started rearing on leaving the yard. The family were so unlucky that the pony also had a brain tumour - and it napped and ran backwards. Both horses needed to be PTS as there was no other remedy.

Except there was - both horses were given back to the riding school where one smack on the bum cured the mare, and two smacks on the bum cured the pony. :D

Hurrah - no need for PTS.
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Is it very wrong that I find this the best and funniest post on the whole thread! ???
 
I don’t think anyone is saying they agree with the actions of the lady. Not at all. But humans make mistakes, they lash out, they stupid things when they get stressed/tired.

I was viciously bitten by my old ISH. I was rugging him up and he turned and went for my back- ears flat. He went through a blouson, a gilet, a jumper and a T-shirt. He broke the skin, a decent amount of blood and I actually had a scar for 18 months. Like lightening, I smacked his neck. I think it was part-shock. He was equally shocked. We both just looked at each other for a few moments. I felt dreadful about it but, as my friend said who was stood there, if that had been my face- he’d have taken part of it off. He never attempted anything like that again.
I was a teacher at the time, if someone had filmed that and posted it on social media, should I have lost my job?

I felt horrendous guilt for days. I lost my temper. But I don’t think that makes me a bad person. I certainly don’t think that my actions that day meant I was a danger to children. I never once lost my temper with a child in my ten years teaching.
 
What are you on about?
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You claimed that no one can train a horse without hitting it occasionally. I disagreed.
You then went on to ask me if I've ever used negative reinforcement in training a horse - which was completely off topic because hitting is not an act of negative reinforcement, it's an act of positive punishment. Negative reinforcement is the removal of a negative stimuli - e.g. pressure. Positive punishment is the addition of a negative stimuli - e.g. a hit. Not sure how I can explain that any simpler.

Cortez said:
Ever worked with a circus trainer? If you think that they train without negative reinforcement, well, you're adorable, as my American friends would say.
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Again we're not talking about negative reinforcement. But, regardless, what's your point? Sure, some circus trainers use negative reinforcement. Most zoo trainers use positive reinforcement. Some circus trainers use bullhooks and electric shocks. Different people train in different ways, and if something can be done with minimal to no use of aversives, I don't know why you'd want to use the one where the animal has to experience some discomfort.
 
Regandal said:
What is the school supposed to do if all the parents say they don’t want her anywhere near their children? Put her on gardening leave? Give her a good reference to bog off?
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If she was a good teacher the school should have defended her and pointed out to parents that her role at school was the relevant one and that the incident was deeply unfortunate and that she had received a warning for bringing the school into disrepute. That would have been the fair thing to do and perhaps would have demonstrated that the school does not value or pay credence to bullying by extremists or trial by social media...glass houses and all that!!
 
Regandal said:
What is the school supposed to do if all the parents say they don’t want her anywhere near their children? Put her on gardening leave? Give her a good reference to bog off?
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Back we come on a circle to what is so damaging to society about social media witch hunts.

Punishment should fit a crime. In this case, the crime is so small that it would never make it into court, yet a woman has had her career destroyed and quite possibly her retirement too, as this will badly affect her pension. A life sentence for smacking a pony.
.
 
Having read through most of this thread and whilst I do not agree with what this lady did, I do wonder if the Sabs had been winding her up prior to this film and that was why she lashed out at the pony.

To quote another incident, the dodgy dealer who sold me a drugged up horse and also gave me 6 bags of feed also laced with bute worked at a University with young people. Should she have been sacked for animal abuse?
 
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Pearlsacarolsinger said:
Academies are state-funded (maintained) although directly from DfE rather than through the LA.
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Not sure it’s that way in Scotland I think ? in Scotland a high school is maintained by its LA unless Private or Church owned ? Happy to be corrected ? I know that the education departments are billed for work carried out but it was done by LA work force in my LA.

The new primaries are maintained by LA here just now and all the High schools have been replaced with new builds on a lease to own basis I think. Those are maintained by a private facility service but the LA Ed sept is billed for anything other than routine maintenance
 
Roasted Chestnuts said:
Not sure it’s that way in Scotland I think ? in Scotland a high school is maintained by its LA unless Private or Church owned ? Happy to be corrected ? I know that the education departments are billed for work carried out but it was done by LA work force in my LA.

The new primaries are maintained by LA here just now and all the High schools have been replaced with new builds on a lease to own basis I think. Those are maintained by a private facility service but the LA Ed sept is billed for anything other than routine maintenance
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The school in question isn't in Scotland but in Leicestershire.
 
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