Saturday at Aintree

MurphysMinder said:
I've just seen an excellent post by someone who I think may work on a yard. All good apart from the fact she is criticising people who say Recite a Prayer broke his neck and says "he had a heart attack by the looks of things". Perhaps either Elf or Gamebird could enlighten her.
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He's fit and well, barring a fractured eye socket. I'm not engaging on social media. You're welcome to share the update though:

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I had a quick nosey at the comment section on a few Grand National articles on the DM (the ones that had comments enabled). I expected a large support for the GN, I did not see that. I saw the opposite.
 
Gamebird said:
He's fit and well, barring a fractured eye socket. I'm not engaging on social media. You're welcome to share the update though:

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Sorry, my bad. It was Hills Sixteen she was referring to. Glad your guy is doing well. I've deleted my post
 
AP and co insisting the protesters knew absolutely nothing about racing infuriated me. As a kid I’d slink, alone, into the front room to watch the racing on a winter Saturday afternoon - I knew just about every chaser going. That was 40 years ago and I’ve been racing and followed it generally for years. My aunt and uncle worked in senior roles for one of the major NH trainers in the 70s/80s/90s. I flipping know racing. And I have fallen out of love with it.

10 years or so ago I realised racehorses - all domesticated horses in fact - are here because we breed them, for pleasure, entertainment…betting. This argument put forward that racehorses must race because they’re here is very wobbly - we could simply stop breeding them and in 20 years they’d be gone. No more racing. Personally it’s not so much the racing that upsets me, it’s the thousands and thousands and thousands of horses bred to race around the world that don’t make it, that break down, that retire and end up abused and illtreated, carted miles to a horrible slaughter. Don’t dare tell me they all end up in their owners field being fed buttercups.

Racing isn’t going to disappear. Far too many massively influential business people are involved in racing and they simply won’t let the politicians touch it.

I watched the GN on Saturday with very, very mixed motivations - mostly wanting to see if the protests would happen and also out of concern for the horses. But now I‘m pretty sure I‘ll never watch never mind bet on or go racing again. The reality is too grim.
 
Burnerbee said:
AP and co insisting the protesters knew absolutely nothing about racing infuriated me. As a kid I’d slink, alone, into the front room to watch the racing on a winter Saturday afternoon - I knew just about every chaser going. That was 40 years ago and I’ve been racing and followed it generally for years. My aunt and uncle worked in senior roles for one of the major NH trainers in the 70s/80s/90s. I flipping know racing. And I have fallen out of love with it.
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There is a difference between protesting peacefully at the gate to inform people of the risks and storming the course to disrupt the race.
Personally I think anyone who actually got on the course should be jailed for minimally six months and those attempting to get on should be fined at least £1000. They should all then have court orders preventing them from trespass for 2 years.
The level of disruptive protests in this country have got out of hand and it should be made illegal to take direct action as part of a protest.
 
Burnerbee said:
AP and co insisting the protesters knew absolutely nothing about racing infuriated me. As a kid I’d slink, alone, into the front room to watch the racing on a winter Saturday afternoon - I knew just about every chaser going. That was 40 years ago and I’ve been racing and followed it generally for years. My aunt and uncle worked in senior roles for one of the major NH trainers in the 70s/80s/90s. I flipping know racing. And I have fallen out of love with it.

10 years or so ago I realised racehorses - all domesticated horses in fact - are here because we breed them, for pleasure, entertainment…betting. This argument put forward that racehorses must race because they’re here is very wobbly - we could simply stop breeding them and in 20 years they’d be gone. No more racing. Personally it’s not so much the racing that upsets me, it’s the thousands and thousands and thousands of horses bred to race around the world that don’t make it, that break down, that retire and end up abused and illtreated, carted miles to a horrible slaughter. Don’t dare tell me they all end up in their owners field being fed buttercups.

Racing isn’t going to disappear. Far too many massively influential business people are involved in racing and they simply won’t let the politicians touch it.

I watched the GN on Saturday with very, very mixed motivations - mostly wanting to see if the protests would happen and also out of concern for the horses. But now I‘m pretty sure I‘ll never watch never mind bet on or go racing again. The reality is too grim.
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I agree with you. I was obsessed with the GN as a child. Adored Red Rum. As a kid was taken to P2P and then NH racing. Even worked in a racing yard for a short time, but it was not for me. I've had shares in a few OG horses but I have fallen out of love with it too. I even have my own ex racehorse at home, btw he is not itching to go racing again. Horses will stay in the field if you put them in the field or they will race if you want them to race. I agree with you about the wastage. Also, no one would consider getting on a riding horse at two years old. It's all about money as no owner wants to wait until 4/5/6 yrs old to see if their racehorse is any good.
The ridiculous way the jockeys are expected to live their lives is also something that should be reviewed. No other elite athlete is expected to starve themselves. Why don't they just increase the weights, they started too do it during Covid?
Racing does itself no favours.
 
Fred66 said:
There is a difference between protesting peacefully at the gate to inform people of the risks and storming the course to disrupt the race.
Personally I think anyone who actually got on the course should be jailed for minimally six months and those attempting to get on should be fined at least £1000. They should all then have court orders preventing them from trespass for 2 years.
The level of disruptive protests in this country have got out of hand and it should be made illegal to take direct action as part of a protest.
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Woah, there's a lot to unpack there.

Everyone has the right to protest. Peacefully protesting at the gate to inform people who have paid to be there would achieve precisely nothing. Peaceful protests have, in the past, achieved very little direct action. They're useful in many situations, this was not one of them. People only tend to be against direct action protests when it's protesting something they enjoy. Criminalising protests is a slippery slope towards dictatorship.

The protestors did not cause any direct harm to the horses. Please provide evidence if I'm wrong. They are not responsible for the three fatalities that happened at Aintree this year.
 
Burnerbee said:
AP and co insisting the protesters knew absolutely nothing about racing infuriated me. As a kid I’d slink, alone, into the front room to watch the racing on a winter Saturday afternoon - I knew just about every chaser going. That was 40 years ago and I’ve been racing and followed it generally for years. My aunt and uncle worked in senior roles for one of the major NH trainers in the 70s/80s/90s. I flipping know racing. And I have fallen out of love with it.

10 years or so ago I realised racehorses - all domesticated horses in fact - are here because we breed them, for pleasure, entertainment…betting. This argument put forward that racehorses must race because they’re here is very wobbly - we could simply stop breeding them and in 20 years they’d be gone. No more racing. Personally it’s not so much the racing that upsets me, it’s the thousands and thousands and thousands of horses bred to race around the world that don’t make it, that break down, that retire and end up abused and illtreated, carted miles to a horrible slaughter. Don’t dare tell me they all end up in their owners field being fed buttercups.

Racing isn’t going to disappear. Far too many massively influential business people are involved in racing and they simply won’t let the politicians touch it.

I watched the GN on Saturday with very, very mixed motivations - mostly wanting to see if the protests would happen and also out of concern for the horses. But now I‘m pretty sure I‘ll never watch never mind bet on or go racing again. The reality is too grim.
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so true.

i have gone through the same journey.

a lot of horses bred today are not the same quality of many 50 years ago, they look good, but are they as sound and tough and hardy.

the overall standard of horsemanship and care falls short, many jockeys are appalling riders, and to have to listen to the sheer drivel that comes out of the commentators is the final straw, all those ex jockeys KNOW what happens to the horses, perpetuate the myths of high standards of welfare to line their own pockets.

sorry, maybe you do not agree, but i do know your post contains many truths.

i have to hand many stats regarding horses in racing.

whatever sport horses are destined for, welfare is rapidly becoming ignored, the rules circumvented, money, success and prestige seem to come first.

the horse stands alone in his stable at night and wonders, what is he thinking, feeling,? unable to communicate in words what he needs, unless he has a devoted owner who can listen in ways as yet unproven by science.

and the many brood mares bred every year, i am haunted by Urban Sea dam of sea the stars, bred and bred from, dying shortly after giving birth.
surely she deserved a retirement, she gave everything, racing and breeding, but still they wanted more and more.

a severe revue into the pre race prep, are the horses sufficiently prepared in the hour before the race.

and after race care needs guidelines to bring it into the modern age.

as for getting off the blinkers from under the bridle, slip something round the neck, slip off the bridle then the blinkers, put back on bridle. i do this with headcollars several times a day.

one of our vets main work is with racehorses, i asked him how his horse world was going, ah, its about millions, no billions!, and how his colleague deals with dressage horses, and thats millions! i was hoping for more interesting reply, ah well!
 
Fred66 said:
There is a difference between protesting peacefully at the gate to inform people of the risks and storming the course to disrupt the race.
Personally I think anyone who actually got on the course should be jailed for minimally six months and those attempting to get on should be fined at least £1000. They should all then have court orders preventing them from trespass for 2 years.
The level of disruptive protests in this country have got out of hand and it should be made illegal to take direct action as part of a protest.
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please do not ever go to live in france.......it would not suit you
 
Honestly I’ve gone from being ambivalent to finding the whole thing grotesque. Betting on a race that at best results in a completely exhausted horse, and at worst results in a dead horse in front of your eyes? Grim.

It’s a bad faith argument to excuse NH racing because occasionally a horse dies eventing, when horses are dying every single week in jump racing. It’s also a bad faith argument to use accidents in the field and mismanagement at home to excuse horse deaths during a race. In what other sport would we accept the deaths of participants as normal?

When I was doing an equine module as part of my business management masters, we used a racing yard as an example to look at profit/loss accounts. It was based around the horses being stabled 24/7 and when I pushed back on that, I was told that it wasn’t an efficient use of time to have staff turning them in and out, and that they wouldn’t be able to give them the right amount of feed and that would hit the profit. It’s a depressing reality, but racing is about money at the top end. Betting has a lot to answer for, but so do trainers and owners.
 
sakura said:
The protestors did not cause any direct harm to the horses. Please provide evidence if I'm wrong. They are not responsible for the three fatalities that happened at Aintree this year.
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Maybe not direct harm but I cannot say with any certainty that delaying the race because of them didn’t help contribute to some of the carnage of the race. Also can’t say it did. But if they hadn’t delayed the race I wouldn’t have any doubt wether they contributed.

And of course they could’ve stopped the race altogether (never going to happen, rightly or wrongly but obvious to most) and people could’ve pulled their horses out if they chose etc but I can easily see how those horses could’ve gotten worked up because of the delay.

If there wasn’t the delay and everything turned out as it did anyway the protesters couldn’t be used as a scapegoat and they would’ve proved their point much better from where I’m sitting. I know means very little but my (admittedly uneducated) opinion.
 
NinjaPony said:
Honestly I’ve gone from being ambivalent to finding the whole thing grotesque. Betting on a race that at best results in a completely exhausted horse, and at worst results in a dead horse in front of your eyes? Grim.

It’s a bad faith argument to excuse NH racing because occasionally a horse dies eventing, when horses are dying every single week in jump racing. It’s also a bad faith argument to use accidents in the field and mismanagement at home to excuse horse deaths during a race. In what other sport would we accept the deaths of participants as normal?

When I was doing an equine module as part of my business management masters, we used a racing yard as an example to look at profit/loss accounts. It was based around the horses being stabled 24/7 and when I pushed back on that, I was told that it wasn’t an efficient use of time to have staff turning them in and out, and that they wouldn’t be able to give them the right amount of feed and that would hit the profit. It’s a depressing reality, but racing is about money at the top end. Betting has a lot to answer for, but so do trainers and owners.
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the lack of lateral thinking is staggering, in relation to adjustments that could made to provide horses in training with a different lifestyle and accommodation more suited to their mobility needs, and opportunity to socialize, if only over a barrier.

the benefits of stretching down to graze, if only for limited periods, to drain the fluids and stretch the topline, roll as when needed.

deprived of so many small things that would be of benefit.
 
Just read an interview with nicky Henderson where he said that he wouldn't want to see the field reduced as that would "reduce the spectacle of the national", can't see how this phrase can ever align with " our horses welfare always comes first " and " they are treated like kings". Mind you he also commented that you could tell by watching the winners how much they loved it and that its easy to see when a horse enjoys racing, to which I couldn't help but think that he can't have been watching shishkin very closely then!
 
tristar said:
the lack of lateral thinking is staggering, in relation to adjustments that could made to provide horses in training with a different lifestyle and accommodation more suited to their mobility needs, and opportunity to socialize, if only over a barrier.

the benefits of stretching down to graze, if only for limited periods, to drain the fluids and stretch the topline, roll as when needed.

deprived of so many small things that would be of benefit.
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A lot of jump horses get turn out if you follow their yards on social media though a limited amount of flat horses would. My flat horse used to get turn out even during the summer season but the yard had a huge acreage.
 
fankino04 said:
Just read an interview with nicky Henderson where he said that he wouldn't want to see the field reduced as that would "reduce the spectacle of the national", can't see how this phrase can ever align with " our horses welfare always comes first " and " they are treated like kings". Mind you he also commented that you could tell by watching the winners how much they loved it and that its easy to see when a horse enjoys racing, to which I couldn't help but think that he can't have been watching shishkin very closely then!
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Completely agree - Shishkin looks like he's sick of racing yet unfortunately because he's getting results he will continue to have to do it.

I think the field size should be cut to 30, the fences will still make it a "spectacle";
 
Peglo said:
Maybe not direct harm but I cannot say with any certainty that delaying the race because of them didn’t help contribute to some of the carnage of the race. Also can’t say it did. But if they hadn’t delayed the race I wouldn’t have any doubt wether they contributed.

And of course they could’ve stopped the race altogether (never going to happen, rightly or wrongly but obvious to most) and people could’ve pulled their horses out if they chose etc but I can easily see how those horses could’ve gotten worked up because of the delay.

If there wasn’t the delay and everything turned out as it did anyway the protesters couldn’t be used as a scapegoat and they would’ve proved their point much better from where I’m sitting. I know means very little but my (admittedly uneducated) opinion.
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Exactly, and that's ultimately my point. Protestors or not, it's down to the organisers to put the welfare of horses and jockeys before anything else. Their refusal to do so - for whatever reasons - demonstrates many of the problems with racing.
 
It’s quite telling that we are having this discussion on a horse forum full of experienced and fairly pragmatic horse owners. Imagine how this looks to the general public. So often I think that the horse industry is blinded by tradition, ego and money. This resistance to change cannot last.
 
Working on the basis that "any publicity is good publicity" the protestors at the GN have done well for their cause.

However, standing back in what I consider to be a fairly neutral position I absolutely fail to see how supposedly horse loving people, can allow themselves to be part of a situation that will undoubtedly put the animals they love into even more danger than running in this extreme race would put them in.
 
sakura said:
Everyone has the right to protest. Peacefully protesting at the gate to inform people who have paid to be there would achieve precisely nothing. Peaceful protests have, in the past, achieved very little direct action. They're useful in many situations, this was not one of them. People only tend to be against direct action protests when it's protesting something they enjoy. Criminalising protests is a slippery slope towards dictatorship.
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I agree about the right to peacefully protest. its what happens in the UK

However, I'm very 'anti' those protesters who cause trouble and issues for others.

For example, the Just Stop Oil twits. The ones that invaded the track at Silverstone (and glued themselves to it), gluing themselves to oil refinery entry roads, onto lorries, motorways and major roads, holding up so many others trying to do their job etc. Some who have been arrested didn't even know what they were 'protesting' about!!
This isn't protesting, its causing maximum disturbance and upset to others - and making themselves look like complete *****s to 'most' people.
 
NinjaPony said:
It’s quite telling that we are having this discussion on a horse forum full of experienced and fairly pragmatic horse owners. Imagine how this looks to the general public. So often I think that the horse industry is blinded by tradition, ego and money. This resistance to change cannot last.
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Exactly. Many of us horse owners are questioning racing, so imagine what non-horsey people think. The racing industry (grand national in particular) is causing a bit diservice to other equestrian sport, 49 horses have been killed racing so far this year just in the UK. Thats a crazy amount, do other horse people here really find that justified and acceptable? Personally I feel it is fueled by money and welfare is not a main priority by any means. I know the owner of the GN winner is on here and I do not mean to offend, but I personally cannot support an industry with so many deaths and broken horses. The GN is an extreme race, most of the field didnt finish. 3 horses died at Aintree. I hate that other horse people label protestors (or anyone who goes against racing) bunny huggers or ignorant. The statistics speak for themselves. I used to event to a fairly decent level for an amateur, would I do that again now? No, I wouldnt. I'll stick at the lower levels as I feel courses at the upper level have got too technical and I feel the risk to my horse is too high. Eventing has its fair share of injuries and very sadly deaths - are the deaths acceptable, no they're not. But I can be certain that if 49 eventing horses had been killed this year in the UK then we'd all be massively questioning it too and rightly so.

I have no issues with protestors as long as its peaceful and they dont risk harming animals at all. Just because something is "traditional" and been done for years does not mean we should keep running it. Those protestors are doing good in that they are raising the questions and making us have these discussions which are worth it if they do contribute to even one horse not being killed. Sadly there are so many blinkered people still in the horse world, one comment on facebook really annoyed me - "but they must enjoy it as the horses kept jumping after their jockeys fell off" and "you cant force a horse to jump if it doesnt want to", anyone who actually has experience with horses knows thats rubbish. The horses in the races are trained to do their job, do some people really think they are choosing to carry on over those massive fences as they're having such a fantastic time? And Im pretty sure we all know some people whose horses dont look like they ever enjoy showjumping but their riders simply whip them enough times when they stop, so obviously they want to avoid that and jumping is the lesser of the evils for them. IMO you can force most horses to do something if you really really wanted to. Horses are trusting, often to their detriment.
 
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We are on livery at a yard with mostly retired ex race horses, including a grand national winner 🌟 he was there on Saturday at the winners parade, he was full of the joys and you could see how excited he was to be back on a racecourse!
Haven't read all the posts but personally I feel if they reduced the field a bit that would save a lot of crashes and falls at the early fences, no need to ban it altogether in my veiw
 
MagicMelon said:
Exactly. Many of us horse owners are questioning racing, so imagine what non-horsey people think. The racing industry (grand national in particular) is causing a bit diservice to other equestrian sport, 49 horses have been killed racing so far this year just in the UK. Thats a crazy amount, do other horse people here really find that justified and acceptable? Personally I feel it is fueled by money and welfare is not a main priority by any means. I know the owner of the GN winner is on here and I do not mean to offend, but I personally cannot support an industry with so many deaths and broken horses. The GN is an extreme race, most of the field didnt finish. 3 horses died at Aintree. I hate that other horse people label protestors (or anyone who goes against racing) bunny huggers or ignorant. The statistics speak for themselves. I used to event to a fairly decent level for an amateur, would I do that again now? No, I wouldnt. I'll stick at the lower levels as I feel courses at the upper level have got too technical and I feel the risk to my horse is too high. Eventing has its fair share of injuries and very sadly deaths - are the deaths acceptable, no they're not. But I can be certain that if 49 eventing horses had been killed this year in the UK then we'd all be massively questioning it too and rightly so.

I have no issues with protestors as long as its peaceful and they dont risk harming animals at all.
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The fact that there were less finishers because horse were pulled up is actually a good thing! It shows jockeys were not continuing when they were on a tired horse or if they knew they had no chance. They were using common sense! You are almost inferring you'd prefer them to finish at any cost.

There is no easy answer to any of this. It probably wasn't the best GN to watch I agree. But there needs to be a balance and racehorses would obviously not exist with no racing. The Animal Rights brigade, especially the extremists, would ban everything to do with animals. Is that what you want? You probably see more deaths at a single Pt to Pt than over the whole GN meeting. Doesn't make it right but it is fact.

I expect to get shot down for this lol
 
The Fuzzy Furry said:
I agree about the right to peacefully protest. its what happens in the UK

However, I'm very 'anti' those protesters who cause trouble and issues for others.

For example, the Just Stop Oil twits. The ones that invaded the track at Silverstone (and glued themselves to it), gluing themselves to oil refinery entry roads, onto lorries, motorways and major roads, holding up so many others trying to do their job etc. Some who have been arrested didn't even know what they were 'protesting' about!!
This isn't protesting, its causing maximum disturbance and upset to others - and making themselves look like complete *****s to 'most' people.
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I’m so glad the Suffragettes didn’t share your views on protest.
 
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