Session number 14 collected trot & passage beginning.

In regards to the passage. That was not the aim for the session its the long term aim as I stated before. If you listen to the audio of the video there is a point that the trainer states that she is not stopping the session in fact she has lengthened it as she feels that Armas is starting to understand what she wants and she wants to work with that.
The trainer does not clock watch and works as short or as long as she thinks is needed.
She wants collection that is her aim at this point and that is exactly what Armas started to understand. OMG I have just had thought for my self the world must be coming to an end !
 
_GG_ said:
I also agree that when you know that the breakthrough is just around the corner, it is worth continuing to get there. The only thing about that is, I think if it is taking too long, it is worth considering that there is a reason it is not being fully understood yet, so take a step back and try another approach kind of thing.
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Oh yes, definitely. I agree. However, there have been a few vids in the past where she's pushed harder or further than I would have been comfortable with myself, and the next day he has come out with something significantly improved.
That's the thing that is just in the back of my mind when I find myself thinking it's gone on long enough. I suppose I'm optimistic about her judgement/feel of the feedback from the horse.

And kind of in the same vein as my warts & all comment - and your fair judgements of her good and bad days - we can, all of us I'm sure, look back at something one day and think 'that was a mistake'. I won't condemn her for making a mistake... IF the next day's work is better again :)
 
doriangrey said:
What I'd like to see is all you 'armchair enthusiasts' sit on Armas. I have no idea what's going on (apart from the fact that I would shoot all the noisy sparrows in the vids)! OP, you must be a total masochist! If any one of you aren't sat on that horse your input is largely irrelevant. Yes - I understand the video is out there for scrutiny - but holy crap - apart from the fact that they are putting themselves out there, do you think you could do better? Well you can't because you aren't sat on Armas. So .. for all the experts out there, why don't you offer your services for Armas' owner? Who knows, you might be able to earn some pocket money :D
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Sorry but that had me rolling around on the floor in fights of laughter ! I will try to have words with the birds to pipe down !
 
I'm not right for everyone, it's my opinion. Can't be doing with the BS to be honest (how mature of me). It seems that as I can't use a thousand words when ten would do then I don't fit on these threads. IMO, James is allowing some mistakes to be made with Armas, some aren't fair on him. I'm not interested in whether anyone agrees, or whether it makes one iota of a difference, or if poor owner is offended that anyone might speak with any force (aka personal attack) some of this IS personal because he IS the owner. Armas isn't in charge of the process - James is. I'm such a knob sometimes, I know that, but at least I have an opinion that is my own.
 
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doriangrey said:
What I'd like to see is all you 'armchair enthusiasts' sit on Armas. I have no idea what's going on (apart from the fact that I would shoot all the noisy sparrows in the vids)! OP, you must be a total masochist! If any one of you aren't sat on that horse your input is largely irrelevant. Yes - I understand the video is out there for scrutiny - but holy crap - apart from the fact that they are putting themselves out there, do you think you could do better? Well you can't because you aren't sat on Armas. So .. for all the experts out there, why don't you offer your services for Armas' owner? Who knows, you might be able to earn some pocket money :D
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I have offered to go over at the end of the summer if James wants me to. But...he has to and I support him in giving this trainer a chance. I won't speak for others, but I post because James has asked me to, so I oblige. Have defended this trainer many times and added my own caveats many times that we are not on the horse getting the feedback for ourselves. Can still share opinions when they are asked for though, doesn't mean we are experts or even think we are...this trainer competes nationally...I don't :smile3:

Armas said:
In regards to the passage. That was not the aim for the session its the long term aim as I stated before. If you listen to the audio of the video there is a point that the trainer states that she is not stopping the session in fact she has lengthened it as she feels that Armas is starting to understand what she wants and she wants to work with that.
The trainer does not clock watch and works as short or as long as she thinks is needed.
She wants collection that is her aim at this point and that is exactly what Armas started to understand. OMG I have just had thought for my self the world must be coming to an end !
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Haha, clockwatching is the devils game when working with any animal so I personally like that she doesn't have a set time frame as I have said before. Like I said, I don't think he looked to be stressed out by any of the work. The only think I didn't like was the increasing tension in the neck back but...sometimes improvement comes at a cost. It's never easy!

milliepops said:
Oh yes, definitely. I agree. However, there have been a few vids in the past where she's pushed harder or further than I would have been comfortable with myself, and the next day he has come out with something significantly improved.
That's the thing that is just in the back of my mind when I find myself thinking it's gone on long enough. I suppose I'm optimistic about her judgement/feel of the feedback from the horse.

And kind of in the same vein as my warts & all comment - and your fair judgements of her good and bad days - we can, all of us I'm sure, look back at something one day and think 'that was a mistake'. I won't condemn her for making a mistake... IF the next day's work is better again :)
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Nope....I think a few people who have just outright condemned have had to admit they may have been a little harsh when seeing improvements in further videos. It's the nature of the beast.
 
I don't know why the 'armchair enthusiasts' keeps being trotted out. You can have an opinion on what you see whether you have attempted the process yourself. I couldn't ride Armas for toffee, but it doesn't mean I can't see what's in front of me.
 
Billie1007 said:
I'm not right for everyone, it's my opinion. Can't be doing with the BS to be honest (how mature of me). It seems that as I can't use a thousand words when ten would do then I don't fit on these threads. I'm prepared to say that James is allowing some mistakes to be made. I'm not interested in whether anyone agrees, or whether it makes one iota of a difference, or if poor owner is offended that anyone might speak with any force (aka personal attack) some of this IS personal because he IS the owner. Armas isn't in charge of the process - James is. I'm such a knob sometimes, I know that, but at least I have an opinion that is my own.
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I'm terrible for long posts...I just hate the idea of saying something quickly and not being understood.
 
doriangrey said:
What I'd like to see is all you 'armchair enthusiasts' sit on Armas. I have no idea what's going on (apart from the fact that I would shoot all the noisy sparrows in the vids)! OP, you must be a total masochist! If any one of you aren't sat on that horse your input is largely irrelevant. Yes - I understand the video is out there for scrutiny - but holy crap - apart from the fact that they are putting themselves out there, do you think you could do better? Well you can't because you aren't sat on Armas. So .. for all the experts out there, why don't you offer your services for Armas' owner? Who knows, you might be able to earn some pocket money :D
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I would - but I would squash the poor sod flat! There's a reason my horse is 17.2hh and built like a brick outhouse!
 
Billie1007 said:
I don't know why the 'armchair enthusiasts' keeps being trotted out. You can have an opinion on what you see whether you have attempted the process yourself. I couldn't ride Armas for toffee, but it doesn't mean I can't see what's in front of me.
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Thing is - Yes, everyone has the right to comment on what they see in front of them, but when its horses, it's very rarely as simple as that. If I were to comment on what I see in the vids, I'd probably say much the same as you, but if you've been there and done it, and ridden horse like that, it gives you an extra insight, allowing you to look beyond what is immediately evident, work out what the trainer is doing, and how the horse is responding, and with all due respect, those who haven't done it, can't view it in the same way. It's like driving very competently all your adult life, then going out and telling someone how to drive round a Formula one track. Same but different.
 
_GG_ said:
I have offered to go over at the end of the summer if James wants me to. But...he has to and I support him in giving this trainer a chance. I won't speak for others, but I post because James has asked me to, so I oblige. Have defended this trainer many times and added my own caveats many times that we are not on the horse getting the feedback for ourselves. Can still share opinions when they are asked for though, doesn't mean we are experts or even think we are...this trainer competes nationally...I don't :smile3:



Haha, clockwatching is the devils game when working with any animal so I personally like that she doesn't have a set time frame as I have said before. Like I said, I don't think he looked to be stressed out by any of the work. The only think I didn't like was the increasing tension in the neck back but...sometimes improvement comes at a cost. It's never easy!



Nope....I think a few people who have just outright condemned have had to admit they may have been a little harsh when seeing improvements in further videos. It's the nature of the beast.
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Sorry _GG_ that was not aimed at you as you have been constructive and polite always :) (along with others and they'll know who they are). It's just some other comments that are far from polite and even rude. It's hard because I think these videos are snapshots and seriously that horse is living a life some only even dream of. Billie1007, if you admit you couldn't ride 'Armas for toffee' than maybe you shouldn't be commenting on his going? How do you know what is in front of you if you don't know the process about how it might be getting him there?
 
doriangrey said:
Sorry _GG_ that was not aimed at you as you have been constructive and polite always :) (along with others and they'll know who they are). It's just some other comments that are far from polite and even rude. It's hard because I think these videos are snapshots and seriously that horse is living a life some only even dream of. Billie1007, if you admit you couldn't ride 'Armas for toffee' than maybe you shouldn't be commenting on his going? How do you know what is in front of you if you don't know the process about how it might be getting him there?
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DG - are you serious? That's a really silly idea. I have eyes that see and eyes that read. Eyes that can compare last week to this, eyes that can see a lame horse when one is presented despite me having very little hands on experience of lameness. I have never had a laminitic, but feel that I know enough to advise someone on the initial treatment. I don't jump, but I'm able to watch my fellow livery and tell her when she's not straight or when she needs to give him the rein and allow him to do it himself... I don't think your argument is valid.
 
Forest Fox said:
But why does he do it ?.....time after time ?
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I have far more respect for someone who is willing to learn despite criticism and abuse by being open and honest than someone who hides behind a veil of anonymity.

this forum is made up of many people who have little or no experience of what goes into training a horse to this degree. What is usually seen is the end product which gives an unattainable dream. Instead, James is showing that it isn't easy, nothing comes without mistakes or setbacks. This, IMO makes it much easier for others to see that actually, they are doing pretty well, that well schooled horses aren't made overnight and that there is hope for every horse and rider.

doriangrey said:
Sorry _GG_ that was not aimed at you as you have been constructive and polite always :) (along with others and they'll know who they are). It's just some other comments that are far from polite and even rude. It's hard because I think these videos are snapshots and seriously that horse is living a life some only even dream of. Billie1007, if you admit you couldn't ride 'Armas for toffee' than maybe you shouldn't be commenting on his going? How do you know what is in front of you if you don't know the process about how it might be getting him there?
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I am acutely aware that some of my posts have been really long so I don't want to come across as voicing opinions without being able to back it up....so I kind of knew you weren't getting at me, but wanted to make the point anyway for the benefit of all if that makes sense.

To be fair...I don't even think I am making sense to myself anymore :wink3:
 
Forest Fox said:
Are you enjoying lots of ladies arguing about you James ?
I do wonder why you continue to post vids knowing the outcry they entail..........
Some sort of fetish maybe ?
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because its interesting :)
it has been very interesting to watch the videos and read the comments , i appreciate the fact that the op is posting "warts an all" videos as its never a smooth journey training any horse
there are also many different approaches to train a horse like this and it is interesting to see how another trainer would go about it , it might be different to how some people may do it but it isn't always wrong , just different

as for the heated debates about the op , am i missing something :confused: i don't really see the need for the personal attacks on here

as for the horse , i have missed a few videos but he is improving in his frame although there is more tension this time maybe because he is learning something new , will be interesting to see how he comes out in his next session
he is lovely and is always trying so hard to please :)
 
dunkley said:
J - I have followed Armas' story since he arrived on the transporter in all that snow. I'm sure many on here have, and remember your absolute excitement at having such a stunning horse to ride in such beautiful surroundings. I have seen your posts turn unpleasant and nasty, and lots of different views and observations. Out of them all, GG really, really seems to understand what is, or is not, (as the case may be) happening. I am not going to make any comments whatsoever on how Armas is progressing, or whether the trainer is improving or ruining him. What I will ask is 'Do you remember why you bought him?' Did you buy him to enjoy, yourself, and ride in superb surroundings? Pleasure rides, and local 'fun' things? Or did you buy him to watch other people ride and compete him? If it was for you - and I think it was, originally - of course a well-schooled, responsive, obedient horse is more of a pleasure to ride than an ar*e. Walk, trot, canter - upwards and downwards transitions - ability to leg yield round parked vehicles - rein back/turn on the forehand for gates. Not passage/piaffe, or any other 'classical' movements. It is only my very personal opinion, but I think you should have some simple, unpressured time doing what you first intended. If Armas continues to be 'developed' into a 'top dressage horse', unless you develop accordingly into a 'top dressage rider', you may find he is schooled far beyond you, and you won't be able to enjoy any of the things you wanted to do. The buttons will be so very precise, unless you can press them perfectly, he won't understand a thing you say, and you will have lost your horse. Armas won't care that he isn't 'fulfilling his potential' (I hate that phrase :( ). Armas will look stunning, even if his outline isn't perfect, and his head isn't in precisely the 'right' place. The best video I have seen recently was of the young girl riding him, and having fun together, which is what I thought you wanted to do yourself. FWIW, I think Armas, and you, would benefit greatly from a complete break from the school, and training, and developing. Go and have some fun, and relax, the pair of you. It certainly won't do any harm, and may well be the making of you both. :)
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Agree with you 100%
 
Billie1007 said:
DG - are you serious? That's a really silly idea. I have eyes that see and eyes that read. Eyes that can compare last week to this, eyes that can see a lame horse when one is presented despite me having very little hands on experience of lameness. I have never had a laminitic, but feel that I know enough to advise someone on the initial treatment. I don't jump, but I'm able to watch my fellow livery and tell her when she's not straight or when she needs to give him the rein and allow him to do it himself... I don't think your argument is valid.
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I do think it's valid. I don't want to argue with you but I feel you are a little irrational when it comes to Armas. Honestly, if I wasn't jumping I wouldn't be advising someone who is unless I was an instructor or better qualified. Tbh, unless I wasn't doing it myself then I wouldn't be offering my opinion. Look - I believe I have some input regarding breeding, nutrition and bringing on youngstock - but having no knowledge atm on riding, showing, dressage etc I keep out of it. I can't give an opinion of Armas because I do not feel I am anywhere near qualified. What is your definition of qualifying yourself for what, is frankly enough a little judgemental of her training? She rides far more than me so how can I judge - I just wonder where you come to the same conclusion.
 
Forest Fox said:
That's the whole point !!!!........Its generally a solitary activity !
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Totally unnecessary and I think you would benefit from remembering this is just a forum and over involvement for no constructive reason is really saying more about you than it ever will about James or anyone else!

doriangrey said:
I do think it's valid. I don't want to argue with you but I feel you are a little irrational when it comes to Armas. Honestly, if I wasn't jumping I wouldn't be advising someone who is unless I was an instructor or better qualified. Tbh, unless I wasn't doing it myself then I wouldn't be offering my opinion. Look - I believe I have some input regarding breeding, nutrition and bringing on youngstock - but having no knowledge atm on riding, showing, dressage etc I keep out of it. I can't give an opinion of Armas because I do not feel I am anywhere near qualified. What is your definition of qualifying yourself for what, is frankly enough a little judgemental of her training? She rides far more than me so how can I judge - I just wonder where you come to the same conclusion.
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And I won't advise on breeding or bringing on youngstock...I just get them when ready to start groundwork and take them on from there. I know who to ask when I am ready to breed from Fly :)
 
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