Shocked at Musto using real fur on equestrian jackets

Spring Feather said:
You are misinformed, it's not just a by-product. It's actually the most profitable part of a cow.


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Maybe you are misinformed! Maybe in your part of the world not in UK ,hides are not that valuable .Approx 0.20% total value of carcase hardly profitable. So when taken from the animal it is a by product that helps towards the cost of processing said animal.
 
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This thread has made me think. Thank you. I dislike the sound of the fur on this coat as they are trapping the animals which could result in them suffering for hours / days in pain before being killed. However on the flip side this practice may be happening anyway as these animals are vermin and can we blame the people for profiting from the hide of an animal that they killed anyway? I don't know the answer to that question.

As for one animal dying being more or less acceptable than another, I feel more that animals bring bred simply to die, for the meat trade or the milk trade say, coukd be argued as less acceptable than this coyote. You could argue that the coyote suffered more at the end of it's life, but may have led a more natural life than the cows or pigs or chickens or ducks that end up on our plates, or on our feet or in our coats or pillows.

Or the even bigger picture. If we don't eat animals or use them for leather etc then it could mean more products being synthetically made which is in general bad for the global environment, or use products like cotton say, where people work in terrible conditions to bring us cheap affordable clothes.

I hate waste of any kind. But this thread has made me think. I may be more comfortable wearing this fur than the down in the filling. I don't know. I think I go through life with my eyes closed and my hands over my ears to pretend that everything is rosy, when in reality I know it isn't!!!
 
I had a response-

"
I would like to express my sincere apologies that our decision to use Coyote fur has caused you distress. Please rest assured your comments will be referred to the development and senior management team.

I quote the official Musto statement re our decision:-

Coyote Fur trims have been added to our most extreme, expedition jackets which have been designed and developed specifically for sub-zero temperatures. The fine hairs on the Coyote Fur trims trap warm air around the face helping to retain body heat and keep the wearer warm and comfortable. Unlike synthetic fur, Coyote doesn’t freeze when wet, helping to enhance the warmth properties around the face and also reduce the risk of skin irritations from sharp frozen spikes. Coyote can retain heat in temperatures below -30 for extended periods of time, making it ideal for expedition clothing.

The fur is sourced as a result of culling in Canada, This is because in Canada they are classed as pests. We get the fur direct from Canada and do have they certificates to confirm all of this.

The products and services we offer are of great importance to our company as are the views of our customers. The decision to use Coyote Fur would not have been have been reached lightly due to the sensitive issues linked to the use of real furs, but its properties are required to make our extremely technical jackets fit for purpose.

As you acknowledged in your earlier email we ensured that the fur was ethically sourced.

Whilst I accept the above will not pacify your concerns I do hope that we have explained our position and rationale.

Once again thank you for taking the trouble to write with your concerns and hopefully you will continue to purchase Musto products in the future.

Kind regards"
 
I think different people have their own personal definitions of what they find ethical or not. I imagine they'd say the same about the down but because it isn't quite so obvious fewer people would worry about that anyway.
 
ester said:
I think different people have their own personal definitions of what they find ethical or not. I imagine they'd say the same about the down but because it isn't quite so obvious fewer people would worry about that anyway.
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yes definitely. it's a grey area I think, for me. If they had responded to say 'they are all shot by skilled bods in canada so there is no lingering in traps for 3 days' then I'd fully support the idea! It seems carefully worded ;)
 
I think people need to realise that in extreme weather jackets real fur has to be used as man made alternatives just dont do the job.
 
ester said:
I think different people have their own personal definitions of what they find ethical or not. I imagine they'd say the same about the down but because it isn't quite so obvious fewer people would worry about that anyway.
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yes, and I think it is fine to 'choose' your battles as well. I eat meat for example but I would never buy foie gras. I understand that certain animal fur is the best thing to wear in the Arctic. I do not believe wearing dead wolf/coyote is justified in the UK (even at -12, which it was here this morning!). Maybe people should google live plucking etc and educate themselves about down as well.
 
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popsdosh said:
Maybe you are misinformed! Maybe in your part of the world not in UK ,hides are not that valuable .Approx 0.20% total value of carcase hardly profitable. So when taken from the animal it is a by product that helps towards the cost of processing said animal.
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Interesting. I always thought that English leather was high quality and therefore expensive. A hide makes up 1/10th of the whole animal; definitely not an inconsequential part of the whole. Over here, proportionately, the hide is one of the most valuable single parts of the cow and leather products originating from here command a far higher value than imported leather.

The links I found are vegan/lib sites, so not sure whether they are biased or not ...

http://www.care2.com/causes/the-shocking-truth-about-leather-no-its-not-a-meat-byproduct.html

http://liberationbc.org/issues/leather

http://www.onegreenplanet.org/anima...-more-than-a-by-product-of-the-meat-industry/
 
Spring Feather said:
Interesting. I always thought that English leather was high quality and therefore expensive. A hide makes up 1/10th of the whole animal; definitely not an inconsequential part of the whole. Over here, proportionately, the hide is one of the most valuable single parts of the cow and leather products originating from here command a far higher value than imported leather.

The links I found are vegan/lib sites, so not sure whether they are biased or not ...

http://www.care2.com/causes/the-shocking-truth-about-leather-no-its-not-a-meat-byproduct.html

http://liberationbc.org/issues/leather

http://www.onegreenplanet.org/anima...-more-than-a-by-product-of-the-meat-industry/
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I think it is very biased done some research myself.

In Canada at present a steer going to Abattoir to kill is worth in round figures about $1600-1800 the hide from that animal weighs 1% of the carcase weight and will sell for $30-40 ex abattoir they are traded as any other commodity internationally.
Being very generous to them they may have got the decimal point in the wrong place and used the actual leather price of the hides(after the Tannery) and not what the value is to the animals producer. LOL funny that but thats propaganda for you!
 
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popsdosh said:
the hide ... will sell for $30-40 ex abattoir
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Can you give me links to this price (out of interest) as I'm over here and I can't find any links giving hide prices from the abattoir lol! I know that to buy a tanned hide, they are super expensive, but that's an end product, as is leather. I know what I pay for a freezer cow and what they sell to the slaughterhouse for and proportionately it does not make sense that the hide would not sell for a much higher price than you suggest, unless bones are of exceptionally high value.
 
Spring Feather said:
Can you give me links to this price (out of interest) as I'm over here and I can't find any links giving hide prices from the abattoir lol! I know that to buy a tanned hide, they are super expensive, but that's an end product, as is leather. I know what I pay for a freezer cow and what they sell to the slaughterhouse for and proportionately it does not make sense that the hide would not sell for a much higher price than you suggest, unless bones are of exceptionally high value.
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Sorry I got the price from a local abattoir who I deal with and they got US and CA prices for hides off their buyers. Prices are much the same here for the hide but the animal itself would be more valuable. The same animal in uk would be worth approx 2300 $CA

Just found this shows the price in cents/pound of salted hide maybe it helps http://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?commodity=hides
 
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milliepops said:
yes definitely. it's a grey area I think, for me. If they had responded to say 'they are all shot by skilled bods in canada so there is no lingering in traps for 3 days' then I'd fully support the idea! It seems carefully worded ;)
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Yeah that's how I feel about it too.

popsdosh said:
I think people need to realise that in extreme weather jackets real fur has to be used as man made alternatives just dont do the job.
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I get that too. I think that if you are exploring Antarctica then maybe ethically (?!??) sourced fur could be a necessity, but there's a big difference between that and going out to do the horses here when it's a bit chilly
 
Vickijay said:
I get that too. I think that if you are exploring Antarctica then maybe ethically (?!??) sourced fur could be a necessity, but there's a big difference between that and going out to do the horses here when it's a bit chilly
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Yes there is. There really is nothing like a coyote or wolf fur trim on a hood over here when you are traipsing through fields in -30c temps. No one living anywhere in Britain experiences these sorts of daily winter temperatures so it's understandable why they cannot see why these hoods are of any use to anyone. They make a huge difference to us over here though.
 
Vickijay said:
Yeah that's how I feel about it too.



I get that too. I think that if you are exploring Antarctica then maybe ethically (?!??) sourced fur could be a necessity, but there's a big difference between that and going out to do the horses here when it's a bit chilly
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I concurr
 
I think the moral question is that the leather hide is part of the whole animal, which is produced for its meat and hide, and is generally well cared for and killed under controlled conditions.

A fur animal however, it just killed for its fur, and in most people's minds there is a question about how it is killed. Immediately the picture is of an animal in a trap, trying to escape, or of stacks of small cages in a dark barn. If an animal is a pest, then I see nothing wrong in killing it, nor in using the pelt, but there is a slightly uneasy feeling about how it arrived in that state.

I also agree that in the UK we know nothing of the really low temperatures experienced in some parts of the world, and the necessity for animal fur for clothing.
 
I just looked at the advert and my guess is they are going to stop the jacket anyhow as its in a sale at half price so maybe they already have the message
 
No real place for a coyote trimmed jacket in the UK market then is there. We don't exactly have "extreme weather"
I wouldn't want to be supporting a company who thinks it's acceptable to use fur so will be avoiding musto products going forwards. Don't think I've ever bought any to be honest. I don't like down-filled anything either, can't stand the feeling of it. Not to mention the fact I'm allergic to feathers!
 
Vickijay said:
I wasn't moaning! I was just saying that I was shocked that animal fur was being marketed on an equestrian jacket
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The equestrian world isn't exactly known for being fur-free, though, is it?

Personally I think that if we have taken the decision to deprive an animal of its life for our own purposes - and there are no essential reasons to do that AFAIK - then the use to which you will put the carcass is immaterial - all that matters is a good life and a good death.
 
I believe in using ALL of an animal. I would not buy fur because the whole animal is not used. I eat meat, knowing that the hide/bones/balls/tongue/ears are used.

I would not buy the coat.

But im not sure why people are shocked that an equestrian line has it? They are notorious for leather, down and fur..
 
MotherOfChickens said:
yes, and I think it is fine to 'choose' your battles as well. I eat meat for example but I would never buy foie gras. I understand that certain animal fur is the best thing to wear in the Arctic. I do not believe wearing dead wolf/coyote is justified in the UK (even at -12, which it was here this morning!). Maybe people should google live plucking etc and educate themselves about down as well.
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Dont forget that the english cold is different from continental cold and can chill you to the bone in -2.
 
RaposadeGengibre said:
Dont forget that the english cold is different from continental cold and can chill you to the bone in -2.
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Maybe, if you don't know how to dress for it. And I live up a hill in Scotland, which does cold and wet on a much larger scale than much of England. I have no need to wear dead dog to do my horses or to go spectate at a local event. I've no need to wear down plucked from live animals either (ftr I find the down issue worse than the fur). I have been in -20 to -30 C and its a whole other ballgame but there's no need for fur here. There are excellent technical fabrics and wool clothes that are perfectly good for UK weather.
Fur is a different 'deal' to me than leather, wearing fur and people seeing fur can create a demand for fur (any sort of fur as the general public is not generally very discerning) There's very little 'good' fur farming in the world.
 
To be fair to musto that Jacket is not specifically aimed at the British equestrian market ! they do manufacture clothing for very extreme climates. The buyer has to take some responsibility for their own morals on this . I cant think of a jacket I was less likely to buy for equestrian use if im honest ,It would be far to hot.
 
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