Should hunting with hounds be banned?(poll)

[Wishfilly]

I mean by drag hunting , hunts that hunt the clean boot with bloodhounds

Those are two totally separate things though? Drag hunting uses fox hounds, for a start.

At the moment, as far as I'm aware, there are no drag packs that secretly hunt fox (although who knows, anything is possible). Drag packs usually use a completely different scent, and most of the riders *want* the hounds to stay on the line because that way they get more fast draws and jumping etc- which is what most drag followers want. HOWEVER, I don't believe it would be that difficult to set something up as a drag back that could (relatively easily) hunt fox- it would certainly be hard for your average non-horsey policeman or passer by to tell the difference!

Whereas with bloodhounds, it's fairly obvious what type of hound you're using, and my understanding is that bloodhounds aren't really suited to pursuing foxes, so easier for everyone to tell if what is going on is legitimate.

I think conflating the two causes confusion and so it's important to draw clear distinctions.

I do think we have reached the point where any sort of hunting with fox hounds is likely to be used as a cover for illegal activity, and given the way too many hunts behave, the easiest solution to keep everything legal and prevent others being inconvenienced is to ban hunting with fox hounds.

 

[Wishfilly]

Oh by all means let’s ban any activity that the majority don’t participate in.

The majority of people don't (and wouldn't) race trotters on roads, either. Should that be legal?

 

[Fred66]

But I'm yet to hear anyone come up with a justifiable reason for trashing the farmland and causing chaos. Those who hunt say its a great day out. I'm sure it is.

If they go across land they don’t have permission to be on and cause damage then there is no excuse. However just being inconvenient to others is not something that needs to be justified.

We have countless cycle time trials and races near us. It’s annoying but it’s not my road and we have to share this planet.

Far too many people think that their wants trump others, they don’t. If I am down a country lane and stuck behind a horse or cyclist for more than a few minutes because they can’t / won’t pull over, or horses won’t trot on, I will have a moan to myself. But ultimately they have the right to be there and it’s only good manners that would oblige them to pull over.

 

[Fred66]

The majority of people don't (and wouldn't) race trotters on roads, either. Should that be legal?

Is it illegal ?

If it didnt endanger members of the public then I wouldn’t have a problem with it.

 

[Rowreach]

Oh by all means let’s ban any activity that the majority don’t participate in.

But that's not really a helpful contribution to the debate, is it?

I'm one of those people who hunted regularly for years, through childhood and a good deal of my adulthood, earned my living through it and was passionate about hound work and venery - not so much the killing part, but I still enjoyed riding to hounds.

I live in a part of the world where it's still legal to hunt, round here it's mostly harriers but there are fox packs not too far away. I haven't hunted in 20 years, don't miss it, don't like it, am not keen on the type of people who take part in it, and today had a (good natured) argument with a group of lurcher boys who were hunting fox on the farm where I keep my horses (against the wishes of the landowner, but he can't do a single thing to stop them). They informed me that they were doing it to protect the hens. I don't know of anyone for miles around who keeps hens, but hey ...

I love watching the hares and the foxes round here. I see absolutely no need for anyone to go on a killing spree for the sake of fun. I see no reason whatsoever why hunting live prey shouldn't be banned, and having seen what has happened in GB with the majority of hunts pretending to trail hunt post-ban and doing nothing of the sort, that clearly doesn't work as an experiment and therefore a total ban would be appropriate.

Proper drag hunts (and I'm really thinking of those were established pre-ban) should stay, if it's possible, given what the general public view as "hunts", and bloodhounds are just huge fun and should definitely stay.

 

[Muddywellies]

If they go across land they don’t have permission to be on and cause damage then there is no excuse. However just being inconvenient to others is not something that needs to be justified.

We have countless cycle time trials and races near us. It’s annoying but it’s not my road and we have to share this planet.

Far too many people think that their wants trump others, they don’t. If I am down a country lane and stuck behind a horse or cyclist for more than a few minutes because they can’t / won’t pull over, or horses won’t trot on, I will have a moan to myself. But ultimately they have the right to be there and it’s only good manners that would oblige them to pull over.

I totally agree with you. Its the damage to the farmland and upsetting livestock that is the problem.

 

[Rowreach]

Is it illegal ?

If it didnt endanger members of the public then I wouldn’t have a problem with it.

Racing on the roads is illegal.

 

[ycbm]

Oh by all means let’s ban any activity that the majority don’t participate in.

It's more, these days, let's ban an activity which inconveniences, disadvantages and frequently damages way more people than the number who participate in it. And where a routine part of that activity, having out of control dogs, is illegal.
.

 

[Fred66]

Racing on the roads is illegal.

Has anyone told the cycle races people this ?

 

[ycbm]

Has anyone told the cycle races people this ?

Yes.

Racing cycles on the roads is illegal unless the roads are officially closed, with signs and diversions and marshals.
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[JBM]

I have never been pro hunting, so I too was confused by the difference between what the bloodhounds do, and trail and drag hunting. I found some useful (and hopefully correct) explanations on wiki, so I will copy them below. Perhaps a new poll, or amendments to this one, would give you (OP) a better idea of what other forum members think.



Hunting the clean boot is a term that has been used in Britain to refer to the use of packs of bloodhounds to follow a natural human scent trail.

The 'clean boot' refers to the absence of either an artificial scent such as aniseed, as used in drag hunting, or animal urine, as used in trail hunting.[1] Whilst today the term has become synonymous with the use of bloodhound packs, most breeds of dog can be taught the skill individually with varying degrees of success.[2]

Typically, clean boot hunts are run along similar lines to fox hunting (now prohibited in Great Britain), with a field of mounted riders following a pack of bloodhounds which trails the scent of a runner. Like other forms of mounted hunting with hounds, hunting the clean boot usually occurs in the autumn, winter and early spring.[3]

Whole article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunting_the_clean_boot



Trail hunting is a legal, although controversial,[1] alternative to hunting animals with hounds in Great Britain. A trail of animal urine (most commonly fox) is laid in advance of the 'hunt', and then tracked by the hound pack and a group of followers; on foot, horseback, or both.

Trail hunting, while superficially similar to the established sport of drag hunting, was an entirely new invention in 2005 and one which hunts claim is designed to replicate the practice of hunting as closely as possible, but without the deliberate involvement of live prey.[7]

Trail hunting should not be confused with drag hunting; where hounds follow an artificial scent, usually aniseed, laid along a set route which is already known to the huntsmen.[8]

Whole article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_hunting



Drag hunting is conducted in a similar manner to fox hunting, with a field of mounted riders following a pack of foxhounds hunting the trail of an artificial scent. The primary difference between fox hunting and drag hunting is the hounds are trained to hunt a prepared scent trail laid by a person dragging a material soaked in aniseed or another strong smelling substance.[1][2]

A drag hunt course is set in a similar manner to a cross country course, following a predetermined route over jumps and obstacles. Because it is predetermined, the route can be tailored to suit the riding abilities of the field. The scent, or line, is usually laid 10 to 30 minutes prior to beginning of the hunt and there are usually three to four lines, of approximately 2 mi (3.2 km) each, laid for a day of hunting.[1][2]
Whole article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_hunting#Drag_hunting


ETA I am not normally a fan of just posting links as responses, but I thought they might be useful to others like me who aren't really sure of the distinction between the different types of hunting.

Really appreciate this thank you!

 

[Wishfilly]

Is it illegal ?

If it didnt endanger members of the public then I wouldn’t have a problem with it.

Yes it is, because of the dangers and inconvenience to other road users.

There's a hunt near where I used to live who have let their hounds riot on an A road (more than once). I'd argue that's just as dangerous. Also that hunt and another one in the same area have let their hounds chase (and in one case kill) family pets- which certainly has the potential to endanger members of the public who try to intervene to save their pet or if they have to rescue their pet from an unsafe situation afterwards.

Yet ANOTHER local hunt lost some hounds down a mineshaft, and members of the emergency services had to get involved in that- putting them at risk.

I'd argue there are very close comparisons with racing trotting horses on the roads- but because of the sectors of society who are more likely to do each activity, they're viewed very differently.

 

[Rowreach]

Has anyone told the cycle races people this ?

I understood your question to be about trotters ...

 

[Tiddlypom]

Has anyone told the cycle races people this ?

First past the post cycle races are not permitted on open roads. Time trials, where the riders are sent off one at a time at intervals and are only racing the clock, are permitted.

The annual professional Tour of Britain bike race uses police controlled rolling road closures. Pics from 2023 running, showing all the police bikes parked up at the end of the Manchester stage.



And on the road. Traffic is held up for a minimal amount of time. The red car is a bike race support vehicle.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

Yes.

Racing cycles on the roads is illegal unless the roads are officially closed, with signs and diversions and marshals.
.

Only happens (road closures) for the London to Brighton or the Olympics here in Surrey, but lots of 'time trials' which turn into unofficial races just about every weekend, plus mtb off road races too, often through bridleways and footpaths.
Everyone not involved is inconvenienced and gets pushed to the side .
Police cant/wont act as they are so thinly stretched, social media full of weekend rants about it:- packs of cycles running red lights, using full width of roads and lanes, not stopping at junctions or roundabouts..... if anyone did it with cars, horses etc, I'm sure the law would suddenly find sufficient resources to prevent this.

 

[ycbm]

Only happens (road closures) for the London to Brighton or the Olympics here in Surrey, but lots of 'time trials' which turn into unofficial races just about every weekend, plus mtb off road races too, often through bridleways and footpaths.
Everyone not involved is inconvenienced and gets pushed to the side .
Police cant/wont act as they are so thinly stretched, social media full of weekend rants about it:- packs of cycles running red lights, using full width of roads and lanes, not stopping at junctions or roundabouts..... if anyone did it with cars, horses etc, I'm sure the law would suddenly find sufficient resources to prevent this.

Time trials are single cyclists at a time, it doesn't compare with a hunt holding up traffic, imo. Hunts and drag hunts do what you are talking about in your second paragraph every day they are out unless they have very extensive use of private ground.
.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Is it illegal ?

If it didnt endanger members of the public then I wouldn’t have a problem with it.

Yes, racing trotters (or anything else) on the road is illegal.

Not long ago near here.

Police have issued an appeal after reports of a "large number" of horse and carts racing up and down a major road in Shropshire.

Market Drayton A53: Horse and cart racing reported https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-shropshire-67856213

 

[Wishfilly]

Time trials are single cyclists at a time, it doesn't compare with a hunt holding up traffic, imo. Hunts and drag hunts do what you are talking about in your second paragraph every day they are out unless they have very extensive use of private ground.
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To be fair, there are some races run as "time trials" who are in reality racing as a pack- certainly in the past, there were "time trials" which had pretty much mass starts, and it was a nightmare if you were caught up in it. There's a video from years ago of a horse rider who got caught up in one of these with bikes passing her on both sides- it looked very dangerous.

In a way it's very similar to hunting- people trying to evade the law because their own amusement is more important than everyone else's safety.

 

[Clodagh]

I think young Fred is missing the point of the thread!

 

[The Xmas Furry]

Time trials are single cyclists at a time, it doesn't compare with a hunt holding up traffic, imo. Hunts and drag hunts do what you are talking about in your second paragraph every day they are out unless they have very extensive use of private ground.
.

That's as maybe. But the time trials I've seen, been caught up in, break every rule of the public highway. The cyclists are racing without any due care to other road users, also in flagrant disregard of any highway code.
A pack of 10 isnt a single start, in 20 mins it can be over 50 together.

The 2 x drag hunts near to me do have extensive use of private land, they are very fortunate in this aspect.

 

[Hackback]

But I'm yet to hear anyone come up with a justifiable reason for trashing the farmland and causing chaos. Those who hunt say its a great day out. I'm sure it is.

I go out with bloodhounds and can only speak from my own experience which is that the masters are very strict on keeping the field to the headlands where required, advising them if any of the jumps get broken so they can be fixed later, not upsetting livestock etc. We are reminded at the start of every meet that we are only able to cross the land thanks to the generosity of the land owners and we won't be invited back if we trash anything. Also reminded that we have to be clean and well turned out out of courtesy to the land owners.

I think it would be a great shame if such a wonderful sport, which is so enjoyable to horses, hounds and humans alike, were to be banned.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Can we avert the attention of the hunt to badgers instead of foxes? Vile TB ridden things (can you tell a friend has just had a positive TB test?)

I'll be honest, I don't condone or support anything that involves chasing an animal to exhaustion and ripping it to pieces, however I am not an outspoken anti by any stretch of the imagination, just that returning it to what it once was is nothing something I would be keen on. I would prefer to see hunting remain clean boot and as respectful and authentic as possible. I have many happy memories hunting and love the tradition of it all so it would be a crying shame if the whole sport were to disappear.

 

[ycbm]

That's as maybe. But the time trials I've seen, been caught up in, break every rule of the public highway. The cyclists are racing without any due care to other road users, also in flagrant disregard of any highway code.
A pack of 10 isnt a single start, in 20 mins it can be over 50 together.

The 2 x drag hunts near to me do have extensive use of private land, they are very fortunate in this aspect.

What you're describing is illegal and should be stopped. They are not allowed to start as a group on a time trial.

There are frequent time trials on the A roads around here and I've never in over 30 years seen what you have described.

I have, though, been out with drag hunts that trashed verges parking, blocked roads parking, left horse shit all over urban roads outside people's homes, trashed bridleways, went on land where the land owner said not to, held up traffic for long periods, had hounds run into roads and be hit, killed sheep, caused horses in fields we passed to get into a dangerous frenzy, upset dog walkers ....

And I do question whether we are now simply too over populated for such antisocial behaviour.

 

[ycbm]

To be fair, there are some races run as "time trials" who are in reality racing as a pack- certainly in the past, there were "time trials" which had pretty much mass starts, and it was a nightmare if you were caught up in it. There's a video from years ago of a horse rider who got caught up in one of these with bikes passing her on both sides- it looked very dangerous.

In a way it's very similar to hunting- people trying to evade the law because their own amusement is more important than everyone else's safety.

I'm pretty sure that incident was the bike phase of an amateur triathlon. The competitor was banned and other competitors were reminded that the race is run under the rules of the Highway Code. I haven't heard any other reports of those causing trouble on the roads. Like time trials, people aren't all setting of at the same moment and riding as a peleton, they start when they finish swimming and ride singly.



Copied from UKtriathlon rules.

cyclists must maintain a forward distance of 10 metres between each other at all times except when overtaking. It is the responsibility of the overtaken rider to drop back to maintain this gap.

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[LadyGascoyne]

But I'm yet to hear anyone come up with a justifiable reason for trashing the farmland and causing chaos. Those who hunt say its a great day out. I'm sure it is.

A lot of landowners are very happy to have the hunt on their land. They feel very strongly that it preserves the traditions of the countryside and employs a lot of people. Keeping, breeding and exercising hounds is a big part of their lives and livelihoods. The keeping and management of hunters also supports a lot of livery yards and equestrian businesses.

I’m not sure that the anti-argument is best made on the grounds of concern for other people’s property, when the vast majority of those people are willingly allowing it to be used for hunting.

I also think the arguments about inconvenience aren’t strong - we riders frequently inconvenience others by riding horses on the road or transporting our horses slowly. I don’t think we can really argue that hunting (a minority activity) is more inconvenient than the overall impact of general hacking and competing.

If we were to outlaw sports on the basis of inconvenience, dangerous accidents, and inconvenience to health and emergency infrastructure our road hacking would probably be the first to go, followed by eventing.

And quite frankly, if we looked at impact of inconvenience on travel and infrastructure alone, I’d imagine football would be the first sport requiring a ban, and I don’t see how that would ever be considered proportionate or reasonable.

Arguments based on protection of animals are stronger arguments against hunting, or even the control of dogs, might be stronger than inconvenience or damage to other people’s land when it’s willingly contributed.

 

[Wishfilly]

I'm pretty sure that incident was the bike phase of an amateur triathlon. The competitor was banned and other competitors were reminded that the race is run under the rules of the Highway Code. I haven't heard any other reports of those causing trouble on the roads. Like time trials, people aren't all setting of at the same moment and riding as a peleton, they start when they finish swimming and ride singly.



Copied from UKtriathlon rules.


.

It doesn't sound like the same incident- on the video I'm thinking of, the rider was undertaken by more than one cyclist, and there were also other cyclists passing a (distressed) horse far too close on the other side (which may not be illegal but was certainly inconsiderate. I'll see if I can find it, although it's perhaps not super relevant to the thread.

 

[Sandstone1]

I have edited to put hunting the clean boot. I am aware that does not involve hunting foxes or any animal but I was asked to add it.

 

[Esmae]

It is

But still goes on unfortunately.

So how will banning it again make any difference? I'm not a hunt supporter btw.

 

[I'm Dun]

Do you mean all hunting with dogs? And is this specific to foxes? I have working bred whippets, I dont work mine but they have relations who do an excellent job of pest control. My youngest does regularly pick off squirrels and rabbits though.Same with terriers and ratting. I dont think theres anything better for a big rural rat infestation, than a pack of ratters.

For what its worth fox hunting, aka trail hunting cant carry on. They have been absolute idiots about it and brought this upon themselves. I dont think theres any way at all it can be salvaged now.

Blood hounding is a totally different beast and I cant see any reason why that cant continue.

 

[ycbm]

So how will banning it again make any difference? I'm not a hunt supporter btw.

They are pretending to trail hunt at the moment but actually hunting fox. If all hunting is banned they can't do this any more, simply being out with a pack of bhounds managed from horseback would be illegal.
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