Should hunting with hounds be banned?(poll)

[ycbm]

I think it's time that the followers are charged with joint enterprise on this. You can't go cubbing without knowing you are hunting foxes, it bears no similarity to a trail hunt!
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[dapple_grey]

I think it's time that the followers are charged with joint enterprise on this. You can't go cubing without knowing you are hunting foxes, it bears no similarity to a trail hunt!
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I was genuinely ignorant to this fact and believed we would be following a trail. Having only been bloodhounding previously and it being called 'autumn hunting' rather than cubbing, I imagined it would be formatted like a trail hunt. I realise now how gullible I was!

 

[ycbm]

I was genuinely ignorant to this fact and believed we would be following a trail. Having only been bloodhounding previously and it being called 'autumn hunting' rather than cubbing, I imagined it would be formatted like a trail hunt. I realise now how gullible I was!

Yes I wasn't meaning prosecute you, but all the people you were with knew full well what they were doing and it doesn't get much worse than cubbing. We have laws for that, it's called joint enterprise. It makes everyone who knew and was there guilty even if they weren't organising it.

I'm amazed they were stupid enough to show you they were cub hunting when you asked about trails, what arrogance does that show!
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[Rowreach]

I remember going back to England for a visit 10 years ago and visiting a pack I hunted with for many years pre-ban. I was fully expecting to experience a day's trail hunting which would have interested me greatly since there's no ban in NI (yet). What I saw was full on, in plain sight, fox hunting. I've never been back.

 

[Sossigpoker]

Good grief. You checked they were hunting trails and they openly took you cubbing? What a shame you couldn't have got some video of that.
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Avon Vale used to do that and their members even posted photos of them lined up by the corm field. They didn't even make an effort to pretend to be trail hunting

 

[Sossigpoker]

I was genuinely ignorant to this fact and believed we would be following a trail. Having only been bloodhounding previously and it being called 'autumn hunting' rather than cubbing, I imagined it would be formatted like a trail hunt. I realise now how gullible I was!

I've been "autumn hunting " once too, stupidly thinking it wouldn't involve any killing. Silly me. I was so naive.

 

[SEL]

I go out regularly with our local bloodhounding pack and it's great fun. I love that they are fully open, have nothing to hide and I get to enjoy the beautiful countryside at speed over a pre-determined line. My fun is also not hurting anything! I went Autumn hunting once last year with my local foxhound pack, on the understanding that they were following a trail legally. I was bemused when we all gathered around a large covert and everyone started banging their sticks against their saddles to make a lot of noise. I didn't see anything, however a hound trotted past me with blood all over it's mouth. It left me with a very uncomfortable feeling and I will be sticking to bloodhounds in future.

One of my previous stressful days with my local hunt was watching the hunt staff go down the hedgerow that adjoins my paddocks with the field next door (which they are allowed on) bashing the hedge with their hunting crops. It drove the horses mad and I'd managed to get 3 out of 4 stabled but they were literally climbing the walls.

The noise obviously drove all the wildlife away from the hedge and into my paddocks followed in short order by the hounds. At which point I engaged a fine command of the english language at a volume the whole field could hear.

That was mid week and early morning. I assume they thought no one would be around.

 

[irishdraft]

…and if a fox appears in front of the hounds, do they all wave and suggest a pint in the pub later?

I have never heard of a fox getting in the way of our local drag or that there has ever been the slightest trouble in this regard, they are way to fast and furious plus the fact there are so many foot followers and quads watching the hedge hopping it would be extremely unlikely a fox would be any where near.

 

[Winters100]

I used to think that it would be a shame to lose this tradition, and that allowing trail or drag hunting would be a reasonable compromise to allow hunts to continue, without the need to cause unnecessary suffering. Now I believe that hunts have shown themselves to be unwilling to keep within the law, and also unwilling to be 'good neighbors', after all if they were genuinely following a trail how hard would it be to consult with local animal owners and avoid being within immediate proximity of other horses or livestock? Personally I think that it should now be banned completely, which is in one way a shame, but I imagine would be supported by the majority of the population, and really seems reasonable given the bahaviour of the hunts and their supporters.

 

[ycbm]

…and if a fox appears in front of the hounds, do they all wave and suggest a pint in the pub later?

What are you suggesting, that drag packs hunt fox if they come across them? I can only speak for 3 packs and the answer is definitely no. Yes the hounds pick up fox scent occasionally, though IMO only when casting for the beginning of the trail after a check. They make a very different, more excited, noise when that happens and they are very swiftly called off by the huntsman and set on the laid scent, which is much stronger. Once in full flow on that scent, they would be very unlikely to notice a fox scent, which would be much weaker.
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[ester]

Re drag here they only seem to take 3/4 couple out (that’s what stood out to me, I wondered where all the hounds were) and I imagine they don’t even need that many.

 

[ycbm]

Re drag here they only seem to take 3/4 couple out (that’s what stood out to me, I wondered where all the hounds were) and I imagine they don’t even need that many.

All the ones I've been out with had a full pack, probably 12 to 15 couple.

 

[paddy555]

I'm fairly rural (would have said very rural a few years back but house building has gone through the roof round here). A lot of the anti hunt sentiment isn't coming from newcomers to the area but locals - some riders, some not - who a fed up of the inconvenience to their lives. The trashing of our few bridleways, the piles of dog poo and the lack of warning that they're in the area affects walkers and dog owners too. Is that sanitising equestrianism? I don't think so - I think it's just an expression of how fed up residents are with a small group of people not acting with common courtesy on public shared spaces.

I don't think "education" has got worse in recent years - there have always been people not keeping horses well - but social media and the speed at which information can be shared (good / bad / indifferent) means it's all out there for public consumption. The shortage of land in certain areas may make horse ownership the preserve of the elite but I'm struggling to see how that relates to comments on CF's dressage test or frustration with the behaviour of local hunts.

first para absolutely

as for horse keeping I have been surrounded by the hunt for the last 50 years and some of the standards of horse care and riding on hunting days have been very very poor. Horse care seems to be very low down on the list.
We also have a lot of "newcomers" obviously on their first or 2nd horses as owners. Those horses may be a bit "mollycoddled" but the standard of their care is often way above some of the hunt supporters.

 

[Winters100]

first para absolutely

as for horse keeping I have been surrounded by the hunt for the last 50 years and some of the standards of horse care and riding on hunting days have been very very poor. Horse care seems to be very low down on the list.
We also have a lot of "newcomers" obviously on their first or 2nd horses as owners. Those horses may be a bit "mollycoddled" but the standard of their care is often way above some of the hunt supporters.

Based upon recent experience I can agree with this. I was recently visited by an old friend and her husband, who was very proud to tell me that he was hunting in the UK, and had been awarded his hunt buttons. I borrowed a friend's cob to take him riding here. I think it is enough to say that after about 20 metres of canter I had to pretend that my horse felt lame and insist that we walked home.

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

I'm a big supporter of the ban. There is absolutely no need whatsoever for a whole pack of dogs and riders to chase down one innocent animal. That is not, in any way shape or form "sporting". People want to vilify foxes but in the village I live in we have had several large areas wasted by new housing, where do people expect these animals to live and hunt?? If you have livestock then get yourself some livestock guardian dogs or learn to aim a gun properly. I'm not against culling as such but at least make it bloody fair!!!

 

[Caol Ila]

Dare I ask, what's cubbing?

 

[SEL]

Dare I ask, what's cubbing?

Exactly what it sounds ....

Pre ban it was the early outings to get into the swing of things, introduce young hounds to their job with young foxes. Usually now referred to as Autumn hunting I believe.

 

[Sandstone1]

Basically killing fox cubs. They will dress it up and make excuses but that's what it is. The field will surround a wood or copse. They will make a noise. Hit saddles etc. This is to try and stop the cubs bolting from the wood. Then hounds sent in to the wood to kill the cubs.
It has no part in trail hunting and why would the field stand around hitting saddles if following s trail?????
And yet, this is still happening every year. Its illegal but still goes on.
No sign of a trail. Riders stationary.
WHY..

Any idea?
Why is it allowed to continue?

 

[Tiddlypom]

Dare I ask, what's cubbing?

It’s a turkey shoot, but in this case it makes easy for the new entry of young hounds to kill young foxes in the autumn. It’s to teach the hounds their job by giving them easy kills.

It was legal pre ban.

The field of riders surround a covert (wooded or rough area), send the hounds in to draw it (pick up the scent of a fox), then the riders make a lot of noise in order to frighten any cubs trying to escape back into the covert to be slaughtered by hounds.

Pre ban the story was that cubbing was necessary to help the young foxes disperse. It’s for the foxes welfare, innit. That is of course balls, seeing as the young foxes trying to ‘disperse’ are sent back into the jaws of hounds.

I have not taken part in cubbing, but I have seen it happen both pre and post ban, though not for a while. It has NO place in post Hunting Act hunting, but it still goes on. It is the most blatant form of illegal hunting.

 

[ycbm]

Based upon recent experience I can agree with this. I was recently visited by an old friend and her husband, who was very proud to tell me that he was hunting in the UK, and had been awarded his hunt buttons. I borrowed a friend's cob to take him riding here. I think it is enough to say that after about 20 metres of canter I had to pretend that my horse felt lame and insist that we walked home.

Hunting has never been about good riding, that's for sure! Especially the men I'm afraid to say.
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[poiuytrewq]

I've not read all these but quite surprised at the ones i have read and reaslised there's more to all this than i thought!

I thought drag hunting was with blood hounds and following a laid scent.

Fox hunting is with fox hounds, 'supposed' to be following a trail.

What else is there?

My daughter was hunting obsessed as a teenager and I did go once with her. I'm not a huge blood sports fan but it was fantastic riding. A huge thrill galloping with so many other horses, probably the best riding experience I've had in all honesty, I was however uncomfortable with the hunting aspect (post ban)

 

[poiuytrewq]

Hunting has never been about good riding, that's for sure! Especially the men I'm afraid to say.
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I'd agree! I often wonder exactly how they manage not to kill themselves!

 

[ycbm]

I'd agree! I often wonder exactly how they manage not to kill themselves!

I know a man who crunched down so hard in the saddle that he managed to break his pelvis without falling off.
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[The Fuzzy Furry]

I've not read all these but quite surprised at the ones i have read and reaslised there's more to all this than i thought!

I thought drag hunting was with blood hounds and following a laid scent.

Fox hunting is with fox hounds, 'supposed' to be following a trail.

What else is there?

My daughter was hunting obsessed as a teenager and I did go once with her. I'm not a huge blood sports fan but it was fantastic riding. A huge thrill galloping with so many other horses, probably the best riding experience I've had in all honesty, I was however uncomfortable with the hunting aspect (post ban)

Read post #29 - the types are detailed on there

 

[poiuytrewq]

Read post #29 - the types are detailed on there

Thank you!

 

[Rowreach]

Read post #29 - the types are detailed on there

Missed out harriers though …

 

[Rowreach]

Hunting has never been about good riding, that's for sure! Especially the men I'm afraid to say.
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Round here the expectation seems to be that it’s not a good day without someone ending up in hospital with a dramatic injury, after jumping something wildly inappropriate. Cattle grids, metal gates off concrete and hedges with a separate barbed wire fence behind them spring to mind. The former hunt chairman used to buy exceptionally nice and expensive horse and told me that he only expected to get two seasons out of them

 

[Tiddlypom]

Most of the women hereabouts who hunt can ride to a decent level.

There are too many large and unbalanced blokes crashing about in the saddle, though. It’s big hedge country - poor bleddy horses.

 

[ycbm]

Round here the expectation seems to be that it’s not a good day without someone ending up in hospital with a dramatic injury, after jumping something wildly inappropriate. Cattle grids, metal gates off concrete and hedges with a separate barbed wire fence behind them spring to mind. The former hunt chairman used to buy exceptionally nice and expensive horse and told me that he only expected to get two seasons out of them

I made myself very unpoular one day refusing to jump a metal gate propped up on barbed wire. There were a number of ways that could have resulted in tragedy. I told them they promised a way round, so make a way round. Of course once I refused, I had a lot of others behind me, so they had to open a wired up gate and let us through.

When the more stupid bolder members had all negotiated it without an accident they said triumphantly "there, you see, it was safe! ". As if crossing the road without looking was safe just because nobody got mown down that time.
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[Burnerbee]

What are you suggesting, that drag packs hunt fox if they come across them? I can only speak for 3 packs and the answer is definitely no. Yes the hounds pick up fox scent occasionally, though IMO only when casting for the beginning of the trail after a check. They make a very different, more excited, noise when that happens and they are very swiftly called off by the huntsman and set on the laid scent, which is much stronger. Once in full flow on that scent, they would be very unlikely to notice a fox scent, which would be much weaker.
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I never have and never will hunt - I'm not an animal rights person but I am definitely an animal welfare person (there is a very definite distinction), so I can't comment on specifics. But I know taking a pack of dogs through rural areas will mean they see and smell numerous animals, often when they're a long distance from a human and I wouldn't fancy said animals chances of not being killed / attacked / panicked. Like others have said, for excitement; bloodhounds or hire a cross country.