Should there be a weight limit for people at shows (and if so, what and how?!)

[Dexter]

If you read the comments there are lots of people who think its brilliant. She got a very young lightweight connie type shes riding and it makes me want to weep for him. Hes young, hes not long broken and shes riding him without a care in the world while her follower cheer her on.

Its a welfare issue and I dont know why someone hasnt stepped in. Why arent the professionals shes involved with saying anything? Why arent people reporting her to the RSPCA et al? Without knowing who she is in real life I cant, but there must be people who know her who could. I dont understand it.

 

[Barton Bounty]

Its ray the goth right now, her comments must be all children who really don’t understand..

I now feel happy that I am
Not too fat for my boy ?

 

[Ali27]

I’ve just looked at both Raythegoth and Blog of a cob! Absolutely awful how anyone of that size can be sitting on any poor horse! I don’t understand how anyone in their right mind could be supporting them! It’s definitely not acceptable and a welfare issue!

 

[DirectorFury]

Hard agree that RTG and BoaC are both welfare issues, but I hope you’re all ready for their “oh wahhh poor me” Instagram stories and the inevitable influx of flying monkeys who’ll join here just to post incomprehensible jibberish “defending” the pair of them .

RTG actually applied for the Horse and Country All Star Academy series, I’d have liked to hear Pammy’s reaction to that!

 

[teapot]

Hard agree that RTG and BoaC are both welfare issues, but I hope you’re all ready for their “oh wahhh poor me” Instagram stories and the inevitable influx of flying monkeys who’ll join here just to post incomprehensible jibberish “defending” the pair of them .

RTG actually applied for the Horse and Country All Star Academy series, I’d have liked to hear Pammy’s reaction to that!

Oh to be a fly on the wall! It was the last All Star Academy that Pammy suggested taking feathers off that cracking cob because of the weight involved I think…

 

[ycbm]

I'd be interested to know if there is anyone on this thread whose horse is carrying 15% or under of its own fit weight arguing that the 15% limit is too low. It's my impression that it's mostly people who are over 15% who believe that 20% is the right limit.
.

Disclaimer. This is about weight, not fat.

I'm coming back to this because I can't find a single person supporting a weight limit of 20% who is not themselves well over 15%, or close to someone who is.

Shouldn't that give the heavier people pause for thought?
.

 

[PapaverFollis]

FWIW I think, though I'm no expert at judging other people's riding really and am very much prepared to be told I'm wrong, that BoaC would be a nice rider if she lost enough weight to be in full command of her body. It is a shame.

For me spending time and effort out of the saddle keeping oneself as light as one can and fit enough to ride well, through diet and other exercise, is *part* of the sport of horse riding. I'm not saying I've always been successful at that part but it has always been an ideal! But I also think relationship with the horse and horse care is part of the sport... as an ideal. And then it is a bit like, that's not a sport anymore. It's a lifestyle... oh look a tangent..

 

[PapaverFollis]

Disclaimer. This is about weight, not fat.

I'm coming back to this because I can't find a single person who is 15% or under supporting a weight limit of 20% who is not themselves well over 15%, or close to someone who is.

Shouldn't that give the heavier people pause for thought?
.

When I was at my heaviest I think I was just over 15% for MrT. I felt a bit awkward about it but consoled myself with the 20% limit AND he seemed to be coping fine. Until I lost the weight quickly and felt the difference in him and the way he could move under me as a direct comparison. I rode him at about 12 stone and bit then the next time I sat on him was a few weeks later at just under 11 stone (we didn't do much while actually losing the weight... it was hard!) and he felt completely different. So much more freedom in his movement. I could have stayed at 12 stone something, full up against his 15%, and I wouldn't have known he was finding it hard and I could have told myself that up to 20% was fine. It was only the comparison over the short time scale that made it really clear to me that less than 15% is actually very much different.

Absolutely noone would have looked at me and said I was too big or that the horse was struggling either. I don't think. To be fair I don't think he was "struggling" but there was a bit of a line that had been crossed in terms of how much extra strain was being put upon him. I feel a bit bad about it but life is full of learning opportunities isn't it?

I'd rather eat nothing but salad ever again than put that much weight on a horse again.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Katie’s 13.2 Welsh C was probably about 350kg. 20% of that is 70. I was 62 plus tack so around that weight. I occasionally rode him and felt tall on him but not too heavy for him. He seemed strong as an ox so I think it does come down to knowing your pony sometimes.

 

[scats]

If you read the comments there are lots of people who think its brilliant. She got a very young lightweight connie type shes riding and it makes me want to weep for him. Hes young, hes not long broken and shes riding him without a care in the world while her follower cheer her on.

Its a welfare issue and I dont know why someone hasnt stepped in. Why arent the professionals shes involved with saying anything? Why arent people reporting her to the RSPCA et al? Without knowing who she is in real life I cant, but there must be people who know her who could. I dont understand it.

I did hear this particular rider was pulled up at a competition. I think it might have been at Aintree but I’m not certain. She didn’t disclose details, just that she was very upset about the what happened.

 

[ycbm]

When I was at my heaviest I think I was just over 15% for MrT. I felt a bit awkward about it but consoled myself with the 20% limit AND he seemed to be coping fine. Until I lost the weight quickly and felt the difference in him and the way he could move under me as a direct comparison. I rode him at about 12 stone and bit then the next time I sat on him was a few weeks later at just under 11 stone (we didn't do much while actually losing the weight... it was hard!) and he felt completely different. So much more freedom in his movement. I could have stayed at 12 stone something, full up against his 15%, and I wouldn't have known he was finding it hard and I could have told myself that up to 20% was fine. It was only the comparison over the short time scale that made it really clear to me that less than 15% is actually very much different.

Absolutely noone would have looked at me and said I was too big or that the horse was struggling either. I don't think. To be fair I don't think he was "struggling" but there was a bit of a line that had been crossed in terms of how much extra strain was being put upon him. I feel a bit bad about it but life is full of learning opportunities isn't it?

I'd rather eat nothing but salad ever again than put that much weight on a horse again.

I wouldn't mind betting that effect was measurable in stride length, PF. Horses really do need us to have some proper research done into weight carrying.

Katie’s 13.2 Welsh C was probably about 350kg. 20% of that is 70. I was 62 plus tack so around that weight. I occasionally rode him and felt tall on him but not too heavy for him. He seemed strong as an ox so I think it does come down to knowing your pony sometimes.

Going by PF's experience, you'd need to know what he felt like to Katie.
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[Ambers Echo]

Horses move more freely with no rider. So any weight is harder for them than no weight and light will feel easier than moderate or heavier. I find the same with rucksacks! So the lighter the better from the horses point of view - but that doesn’t mean a heavier rider is too heavy. Unless you’re going to say any rider is too heavy. Dolly moved better for Katie than me but I was well under her limits as a full up chunky 148 .

 

[Ambers Echo]

I don’t disagree that 20% is too heavy for most horses though. I think ponies are stronger. I would not put anyone anywhere near 20% on Lottie or Amber - 120-130kg

 

[ycbm]

This is why we need research, to find out if there are step points where the increased weight actually is an issue. ETA I do agree traditional ponies are stronger. Sadly they seem to be being bred more and more like little horses.
.

 

[PapaverFollis]

I don't think the graph (of rider weight against "strain" let's say) would be linear though. I think it is a curve that gets steeper. So there's a line to be crossed where the curve starts going up much more steeply.

I can lift a 20kg bag of feed almost as easily as a 15kg bag. But a 25kg bag feels MUCH harder than the 20kg. There's a line.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Yes I agree - short stocky ponies, low centre of gravity, short backs, stumpy legs will be far better at tolerating weight. You can’t just scale up linearly. But in the absence of any restrictions at all, at the moment, 20% is a good starting point for competition and shows. Riders over 20% for their particular horse would be less likely to be sponsored if they were not going to able to participate in shows and competitions so it would make a difference there. And would be a statement on welfare that filters down to all riders. Banning trimming whiskers for comps is an example of the possible impact - you can still trim them at home if you want but the comp ban raises awareness and changes perceptions. At least to a degree. So I’d welcome a weight rule at all events.

 

[PapaverFollis]

I do think 20% would be a good starting point for an official limit. 20% is generous in terms of how heavy the rider is "allowed" to be when people are struggling with their own weight management.

But I do think there's a step change for the horse at around 15%. I imagine the step change for a strong pony might be at about 17or18%.

 

[Goldenstar]

The research shows that the forces when a horse is walking with a heavy rider is significantly less than when trotting and cantering, so if you are pushing the maximum weight then steady walking for short periods is the least damaging thing you can do.

The forces on their limbs are less .

 

[Upthecreek]

Yes, that is what I suspected but how can companies supporting these riders not see that there are equine welfare implications in promoting their brand in this way? There are welfare implications for riders too and one of the good things about equestrian sport is the need for riders to remain fit and healthy in order to ride. I hate commenting on anyone's size actually and have my own struggle with the battle to both enjoy food (which I really do lol) and remain an appropriate weight for the horses I have chosen to keep and ride. I can't have it all lol. For me this kind of social media content is not remotely helpful in any way - to horses or riders. Are there people who feel otherwise though?

I think we are very much living in a time where people think they can have it all though. We have been sold the dream that anyone can do anything. People buy what they want not what they need.

Lots of posters on this forum are very quick to say that using things like spurs, whips and certain gadgets on horses is cruel. It’s interesting that many don’t appear to feel the same about horses carrying heavy riders, which is far more damaging to the horse in my opinion.

 

[clinkerbuilt]

FWIW I think, though I'm no expert at judging other people's riding really and am very much prepared to be told I'm wrong, that BoaC would be a nice rider if she lost enough weight to be in full command of her body. It is a shame.

I was avoiding commenting directly, but for the sake of contextualising this as (hopefully) a phase before some major changes for one rider, her page shows that she is quite young, was riding the horses up until recently in breaks from university, and that a relative and/or others are presumably schooling the horses the rest of the time. So it is presumably a collective project that needs to be reassessed and hopefully will be.

Having said all that, I'm only following this discussion because of (as mentioned earlier) my previous concern about my own effect on the horses I was being given to ride. Part of my own progress.

 

[Curly_Feather]

As an aside, why on earth are you guys referring to horse weight in kilograms and people weight in stone? It is very very strange, and difficult for this South African to follow along. And for every post I have to use a conversion calculator to figure out the metric...

 

[RachelFerd]

I did hear this particular rider was pulled up at a competition. I think it might have been at Aintree but I’m not certain. She didn’t disclose details, just that she was very upset about the what happened.

And I note, was due to compete at an AF the weekend just been, but W/D - judge at C was same as the one at Aintree. Take from that what you will.

 

[RachelFerd]

And just replying to myself here to note that this is why I think the governing bodies probably need a clearer stance on this issue, given that said judge is perhaps gaining a reputation about their personal approach to overweight riders. Whereas judges should be protected from having to make this type of call where welfare of the horse must take precedence, but sensitivity of the topic with riders is clearly really serious too.

 

[TPO]

As an aside, why on earth are you guys referring to horse weight in kilograms and people weight in stone? It is very very strange, and difficult for this South African to follow along. And for every post I have to use a conversion calculator to figure out the metric...

Because we're British and don't see the point in making things easy ?

Just wait until an American joins in and starts using pounds!

 

[Upthecreek]

And just replying to myself here to note that this is why I think the governing bodies probably need a clearer stance on this issue, given that said judge is perhaps gaining a reputation about their personal approach to overweight riders. Whereas judges should be protected from having to make this type of call where welfare of the horse must take precedence, but sensitivity of the topic with riders is clearly really serious too.

It would definitely help if governing bodies had a clearer stance and if there were clear rules, but how would they be enforced at competitions? It would still be down to officials or judges to put their heads above the parapet and say “I think this rider is too heavy for their horse”. And then what would happen? I’m not directing these questions at you by the way, just musing as I really can’t come up with any workable solutions that protect the welfare of the horse and are sensitive to the rider.

 

[Cortez]

It would definitely help if governing bodies had a clearer stance and if there were clear rules, but how would they be enforced at competitions? It would still be down to officials or judges to put their heads above the parapet and say “I think this rider is too heavy for their horse”. And then what would happen? I’m not directing these questions at you by the way, just musing as I really can’t come up with any workable solutions that protect the welfare of the horse and are sensitive to the rider.

Well, how about adopting a reasonable, scientifically calculated ratio - let's just say 15% rider weight, for example - and require people to provide the weight of both rider and horse to allow suitable pairing. I don't see why there have to be "sensitivities" involved: you are either too heavy to ride a certain horse or you're not.

 

[Upthecreek]

Well, how about adopting a reasonable, scientifically calculated ratio - let's just say 15% rider weight, for example - and require people to provide the weight of both rider and horse to allow suitable pairing. I don't see why there have to be "sensitivities" involved: you are either too heavy to ride a certain horse or you're not.

Get them to provide the information as part of their entry? Would people be honest do you think? Would certainly make people think more about it.

I just meant sensitivities from the point of view of a judge or official having to call it out at a competition if they felt the rider was too heavy for for their horse, which would be awkward for them and embarrassing for the rider.

 

[windand rain]

What's to stop the entrant lying about their weight. Or the horse's weight. I still think that it should be done ringside or before entering a school to dressage or Showjumping. No doubt there will be issues about margins. 20% is generous 15 is good but somewhere between the two is ideal leeway having said that it would need many more stewards and officials so more cost or voluntary work

 

[PurBee]

Jockeys, boxers and other athletes are weighed prior to competition, so riders and horses after arriving take horse and gear to be weighed - its simple to enforce, without having to put judges in the sensitive position of declaring someone unsuitable by looks alone, as they could be very wrong.

Competitions etc exalt an average leisure rider into the sphere of the professional equine industry. If you want to compete at that level you take riding seriously anyway, and rules are already to be adhered to, and a weight rider/horse % ruling would be another rule, that ultimately forces the industry and participants to take horse/rider welfare seriously. It would exalt the industry in the eyes of jo public who just see slobbering gags and spurs and thinks all horse riding is cruel.

Enforcing horse/rider weight % in the leisure sector of private owned horses would be very difficult. If it was made law for all riders of equines to be 15%, say, i can see a very busy future of RSPCA inspectors with weighing equipment answering troves of calls.

The competing wing of the equine industry sets the ruling - and can enforce it with ‘weigh-ins’ - the leisure industry is ‘advised’ a preferred %.

All of this can only be off the back of rigorous scientific studies proving that there is a definite % of weight carrying that a horse can comfortably carry, to know % thresholds.
There’s already many studies, and these should be re-done, updated with wider parameters of taking readings from the horses. A vast indepth study of all types and breeds is well worth doing to get this serious issue addressed. Then use the results as a ’gold standard’ enforceable within the industry, starting within the professional competing circles.

 

[ester]

You’ll likely end up with fatter horses though.

Im also unaware of any studies that most scientists would consider even a little bit rigorous