Should you buy a horse if you cannot offer 24/7 turnout and can only be on livery?

[Barton Bounty]

Talking of turnout, BB hardly had any turnout as a racer so when I got him , he would stand at the gate after an hour wanting in. He soon got to enjoy his time out tho and chit chatting with the horses either side of his field. It was quite sweet to see. But any sign of rain! Hes at the gate , looking like an sspca rescue ?saddest face youll ever see

 

[Miss_Millie]

I can't think of any mammal that benefits, physically nor mentally, from being contained in a small box for half of the day.

Mammals are made to move. A 2012 study demonstrated that horses on 24/7 turnout on large acreage with varied terrain, had the same level of fitness as horses worked 5 days a week but stabled during the day and turned out overnight. The horses out 24/7 had greater bone mineral content.

In my experience there are few yards that offer 24/7 turnout all year round, for practical reasons. It is understandable to an extent. But anyone saying that a horse would be happier being stabled for hours on end is in denial of the basic needs and desire of every mammal on this planet.

If a horse turned out 24/7 has an adequate field shelter, they can make the decision as to whether they would like to stand in there for a while before mooching off again, going for a run, grooming their friends, foraging the hedges etc. A horse stuck in a stable has very little enrichment. Choice and lack of choice is the key difference here to me. Turned out horses have much more autonomy than stabled horses, period.

 

[teapot]

I can't think of any mammal that benefits, physically nor mentally, from being contained in a small box for half of the day.

Mammals are made to move. A 2012 study demonstrated that horses on 24/7 turnout on large acreage with varied terrain, had the same level of fitness as horses worked 5 days a week but stabled during the day and turned out overnight. The horses out 24/7 had greater bone mineral content.

In my experience there are few yards that offer 24/7 turnout all year round, for practical reasons. It is understandable to an extent. But anyone saying that a horse would be happier being stabled for hours on end is in denial of the basic needs and desire of every mammal on this planet.

If a horse turned out 24/7 has an adequate field shelter, they can make the decision as to whether they would like to stand in there for a while before mooching off again, going for a run, grooming their friends, foraging the hedges etc. A horse stuck in a stable has very little enrichment. Choice and lack of choice is the key difference here to me. Turned out horses have much more autonomy than stabled horses, period.

Surely that depends on stable set up?

I’ve seen horses out 24/7 in big herds (when I say it was the stuff of dreams, for some it really was - shelters, hedges, good draining land, out in herds, hand poo picked…) looking throughly miserable, dejected, and just not thriving, especially in the winter.

For some (not all I will say!) they would have benefited from some dry, alone time, or just a couple of mates. A friend actually moved her’s so he could have some stable time, and he’s a different horse now.

 

[SmallPony]

I can't think of any mammal that benefits, physically nor mentally, from being contained in a small box for half of the day.

Mammals are made to move. A 2012 study demonstrated that horses on 24/7 turnout on large acreage with varied terrain, had the same level of fitness as horses worked 5 days a week but stabled during the day and turned out overnight. The horses out 24/7 had greater bone mineral content.

In my experience there are few yards that offer 24/7 turnout all year round, for practical reasons. It is understandable to an extent. But anyone saying that a horse would be happier being stabled for hours on end is in denial of the basic needs and desire of every mammal on this planet.

If a horse turned out 24/7 has an adequate field shelter, they can make the decision as to whether they would like to stand in there for a while before mooching off again, going for a run, grooming their friends, foraging the hedges etc. A horse stuck in a stable has very little enrichment. Choice and lack of choice is the key difference here to me. Turned out horses have much more autonomy than stabled horses, period.

I really disagree with you saying we're all 'in denial' about our horses needs and think it's a bit of an inconsiderate thing to say - most of us want the best for our horses and that is not a one size fits all policy! 24/7 will be optimal management for some, but if mine was out 24/7 she would be obese, possibly laminitic, and exhausted, as she will only lie down in the security of stable - for these reasons she has an in/out routine that I've thought very carefully about, to try and find the best balance for her as an individual.

I'm not 'in denial' about her needs, but considering the wider picture, she definitely will be happier being stabled for at least a few hours a day, because that means she can stay happy and well! Much like my "desires" of eating choccy biscuits every day are definitely not what I actually "need"! ?

 

[Miss_Millie]

I really disagree with you saying we're all 'in denial' about our horses needs and think it's a bit of an inconsiderate thing to say - most of us want the best for our horses and that is not a one size fits all policy! 24/7 will be optimal management for some, but if mine was out 24/7 she would be obese, possibly laminitic, and exhausted, as she will only lie down in the security of stable - for these reasons she has an in/out routine that I've thought very carefully about, to try and find the best balance for her as an individual.

I'm not 'in denial' about her needs, but considering the wider picture, she definitely will be happier being stabled for at least a few hours a day, because that means she can stay happy and well! Much like my "desires" of eating choccy biscuits every day are definitely not what I actually "need"! ?

Being turned out 24/7 doesn't necessarily mean being on grass, though. I think the biggest issue is that the majority of setups, whether livery or private, are not large enough or developed enough/lacking the funds to make them as good as they could be from an enrichment/welfare perspective. My biggest qualm with horses being stabled for extended periods of time is that they lack movement, and that is just as important to obesity management as being on poor grazing.

I'm not saying that there is one size that fits all, but I strongly disagree with people who are saying 'horses are not like dogs and therefore it is okay for them to be stuck in a tiny box for long periods of time'. I think that this sort of management is normalised, because it is practical, but it does not reflect the fact that all mammals have a very basic need for movement to stay healthy in body and mind.

 

[throwawayaccount]

not read the whole thread. but i think winter turnout is becoming a thing of the past and nobody seems to have the land to offer constant turnout/not having enough fields to rotate.

 

[eggs]

Whilst I agree that in the idealised world our horses would be out on huge acreages with varied terrain we are just not set up in the UK for this.

I am a mammal and spent many hours sitting in an office hardly moving.

However we do the best we can with what we have. I have one horse who very definitely does not like being out in the rain and has been like this since a foal. I am lucky that I keep my horses at home with a decent amount of grazing but they come in during the day in the summer to avoid the heat and flies and in at night during the winter and out during the day. I have extra large stables with 3/4 height walls so they can see each other and have a scratch with their neighbour. Some may say this is not the right way to keep horses but it works for me and my horses.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

Well I’ve just left the field and I’m feeling terribly guilty. Two of mine are out tonight, both standing at the gate and wanting to be brought in.

They are still on 24/7 turnout and they both look utterly miserable.

The one on livery (with about 4-6 hours of turnout a day) is as happy as Larry. I left her munching hay quietly in her stable and not shouting pitifully at the gate.

Overall, I think 24/7 turnout is probably better for horses, in general. But it’s probably a bit like eating kale and doing some exercise is better for me than curling up on the sofa with a Thai curry. I know which option I prefer!

 

[nikkimariet]

Nothing we do with horses is natural. Why the insistence on 24/7 turnout? Particularly in a climate not suited for many horse types and inaccessible to many (potential) owners?

Track livery isn’t necessarily the best for some horses. And also for some owners. The yard you’ve found sounds great and I particularly like that they offer all year but restricted turnout. There’s no glory in having them out 24/7 for a few months of the year to leave a mud pit or sand pit the rest of the time.

There’s a compromise in every ownership - if there was no compromise at all none of us would own a horse and the only horses in existence would be those in the wild.

 

[ycbm]

Turned out horses have much more autonomy than stabled horses, period.

Only if they are high enough in the herd hierarchy, otherwise they do what they are told by a horse higher than them. And if the one at the top of the pile is not a natural leader, you can see the stress it creates in them to be forced to make decisions.

all mammals have a very basic need for movement to stay healthy in body and mind

What movement, when? Have you watched cats?

A 2012 study demonstrated that horses on 24/7 turnout on large acreage with varied terrain, had the same level of fitness as horses worked 5 days a week but stabled during the day and turned out overnight. The horses out 24/7 had greater bone mineral content.

Can you reference this study please. Horse studies generally, ime, have very small numbers, no proper control group, and will not stand up to scientific rigour.
.

 

[palo1]

Where I currently ride, the horses have very little turnout during the winter yet have always felt and looked 100x better than the horses I rode who were out 24/7.

Horse management and welfare isn’t and cannot be a black and white thing. I’d far rather a horse had less turnout but felt supple and looked well in themselves. You can keep a horse out 24/7 365 days a year but if other aspects aren’t managed well, it really doesn’t benefit the horse the way people think it does.

Yes. I had horses out 24/7 with a track but it was really wet. The track was hammered, the middle with winter grazing just never got grazed (the horses simply refused to eat foggage lol) and the poor things ended up making a nest of old sticks/branches for enrichment to lie on. It was AWFUL and as soon as we could, we offered a big open barn with a different set up/hard yard. My sporty, senior horse who spent most of his 12 years living out prior to this instantly became a total indoors prima donna; just peering out of the open fronted barn in disgust if it was raining. Hay, water, friends; happy horse!! Traitorous so and so after all my efforts to give him a blooming paddock paradise...

Other horses however, would thrive on the most basic 24/7 turnout so you really can't make one size fit all. I hated being at a livery where bringing in time was not before 5pm during winter as there would be the most godawful and really dangerous scrum at the gate when an owner arrived to bring one in. They ALL wanted to come in then and it was a vile opportunity for bullying and injuries. A settled herd on simple 24/7 field turnout 'feels' safer ime than the horrible routine of mixed/unstable horses with arbitrary bringing in times. However, I would not want to see horses stabled for long hours and think that mixed hard yards (as we have just built here) might be a better compromise where turnout is really tricky for whatever reason.

 

[Barton Bounty]

Nothing we do with horses is natural. Why the insistence on 24/7 turnout? Particularly in a climate not suited for many horse types and inaccessible to many (potential) owners?

Track livery isn’t necessarily the best for some horses. And also for some owners. The yard you’ve found sounds great and I particularly like that they offer all year but restricted turnout. There’s no glory in having them out 24/7 for a few months of the year to leave a mud pit or sand pit the rest of the time.

There’s a compromise in every ownership - if there was no compromise at all none of us would own a horse and the only horses in existence would be those in the wild.

AGREE ?

Imagine 24/7 turnout in the wettest coldest place in winter with a TB , he would melt ?

 

[palo1]

not read the whole thread. but i think winter turnout is becoming a thing of the past and nobody seems to have the land to offer constant turnout/not having enough fields to rotate.

I am not convinced that 24/7 turnout was EVER mainstream actually. I certainly don't remember it being a thing, other than for the odd pony somewhere. When I was younger, in at night at the very least was totally standard and I do remember horses on the farm yard, hastily shut in with a variety of gates because the fields were too wet for any field time. Most equine industries don't do 24/7 turnout and many, many families have never had the land or the manpower to do that either. I don't think there was ever an equine Avalon...

 

[Caol Ila]

It would definitely be healthier if I wasn't drinking this beer, but.....

 

[ycbm]

I am not convinced that 24/7 turnout was EVER mainstream actually. I certainly don't remember it being a thing, other than for the odd pony somewhere. When I was younger, in at night at the very least was totally standard and I do remember horses on the farm yard, hastily shut in with a variety of gates because the fields were too wet for any field time. Most equine industries don't do 24/7 turnout and many, many families have never had the land or the manpower to do that either. I don't think there was ever an equine Avalon...

It was normal for ponies and some happy hacker horses in the 70s and 80s, but the guideline was 3 acres for the first horse and an extra acre for every extra horse. That kind of land in many areas is no longer available, and our objectives for horses and ponies no longer fit with empty fields with no access to stables or facilities.
.

 

[criso]

Talking of turnout, BB hardly had any turnout as a racer so when I got him , he would stand at the gate after an hour wanting in. He soon got to enjoy his time out tho and chit chatting with the horses either side of his field. It was quite sweet to see. But any sign of rain! Hes at the gate , looking like an sspca rescue ?saddest face youll ever see

Both my ex racers went completely feral at first opportunity. I'm the one walking to the top of the field in the rain while the other owners collect their horses from the gate.

They prefer company though, especially the previous one Frankie who when he was on individual turnout for injury, wore down a track alongside the next field pacing. Current one Tigger will tolerate being on his own with someone alongside but is more relaxed with others. Luckily my yard has pairs, 3 or 4 who get on. If it doesn't work, it changes.

Frankie managed 2 emergencies when stabled, so there's no stopping a determined tb who fancies a spa break at the RVC.

 

[Barton Bounty]

Both my ex racers went completely feral at first opportunity. I'm the one walking to the top of the field in the rain while the other owners collect their horses from the gate.

They prefer company though, especially the previous one Frankie who when he was on individual turnout for injury, wore down a track alongside the next field pacing. Current one Tigger will tolerate being on his own with someone alongside but is more relaxed with others. Luckily my yard has pairs, 3 or 4 who get on. If it doesn't work, it changes.

Frankie managed 2 emergencies when stabled, so there's no stopping a determined tb who fancies a spa break at the RVC.

Dont I know it! ?

 

[palo1]

It was normal for ponies and some happy hacker horses in the 70s and 80s, but the guideline was 3 acres for the first horse and an extra acre for every extra horse. That kind of land in many areas is no longer available, and our objectives for horses and ponies no longer fit with empty fields with no access to stables or facilities.
.

Yes, I think this is what I was getting at; that 24/7 turnout was quite unusual as there were not so many 'casually' owned or worked horses and ponies were really only kept by wealthier families (or in Wales as ferals lol. We do still turn away ponies on to the open hill here as was traditional but that is VERY unusual now and almost entirely unavaiable to most people. In more urban places horses were kept in sheds etc too). In more affluent situations Hunters were in, in work, polo ponies roughed off - often kept in groups in big barns. Eventers often turned out during the day and stabled at night. Most RS were in, racehorses in, cavalry horses in etc! I am not saying it was better but I don't think even in the 70s and 80's that it was routine for horses to be out 24/7. I think there were far fewer horses that were kept without being in some kind of structured work and so the husbandry was very different. I think more people have horses in less work now, more people with less time etc and so 24/7 turnout can feel like the 'best' thing. I might be for some of course.

 

[Barton Bounty]

Yes, I think this is what I was getting at; that 24/7 turnout was quite unusual as there were not so many 'casually' owned or worked horses and ponies were really only kept by wealthier families (or in Wales as ferals lol. We do still turn away ponies on to the open hill here as was traditional but that is VERY unusual now and almost entirely unavaiable to most people. In more urban places horses were kept in sheds etc too). In more affluent situations Hunters were in, in work, polo ponies roughed off - often kept in groups in big barns. Eventers often turned out during the day and stabled at night. Most RS were in, racehorses in, cavalry horses in etc! I am not saying it was better but I don't think even in the 70s and 80's that it was routine for horses to be out 24/7. I think there were far fewer horses that were kept without being in some kind of structured work and so the husbandry was very different. I think more people have horses in less work now, more people with less time etc and so 24/7 turnout can feel like the 'best' thing. I might be for some of course.

The riding school ponies spent most of their lives in a pony line ??

 

[criso]

It was normal for ponies and some happy hacker horses in the 70s and 80s, but the guideline was 3 acres for the first horse and an extra acre for every extra horse. That kind of land in many areas is no longer available, and our objectives for horses and ponies no longer fit with empty fields with no access to stables or facilities.
.

In Devon it was certainly common all summer. Liveried at a riding stable, different yard for the liveries than the stable ponies but shared fields. So did the working horses that pulled the traps for tourist. There were facilities but few stables, mainly stalls to tie up in. I was one of the few that opted for coming in at night over the winter but a lot didn't.

Eta riding school ponies and carriage horses came in to do a shift and went back out. If they weren't needed that day, they stayed out.

 

[DizzyDoughnut]

What movement, when? Have you watched cats?.

As someone who is currently stuck on the sofa under my cat this made me laugh. I don't expect to move for some time yet!

I think there will always be some form of compromise and ultimately I am led by my own individual horses.
I don't assume that just because a horse is a certain breed it won't cope being out or because it's another it will love 24/7 turnout it all depends on the individual horse, years ago I used to work for Harvey Smith and all the horses that weren't in training and the youngsters were turned out in the most massive field in a big herd all summer or winter with not a rug in sight and seemed perfectly happy. Not one of them used to hang about at the gate wanting to come in, I expect because they weren't expecting to come in.

So logically I know that if those racehorses can survive perfectly well wintering out on the side of the Yorkshire moors then my native ponies are obviously capable of it, but neither of my native ponies have read their how to be hardy native ponies rulebook and if you give them the option of standing out in the rain behind a hedge or in a stable, they both choose the stable every time, so even though I could keep them out 24/7 all year round I don't because they are happier coming in for some of the time. Ideally I'd like them to have a patio kind of set up attached to their stable but no where round here has that and when you're on a yard with other people you obviously can't just leave the stable doors open for them to roam about the yard. When they are in they seem perfectly happy, especially my youngster, he always has a big flat out sleep every time and he's always far more eager to get to his stable coming in than he is going back out again.

 

[Fieldlife]

Surely that depends on stable set up?

I’ve seen horses out 24/7 in big herds (when I say it was the stuff of dreams, for some it really was - shelters, hedges, good draining land, out in herds, hand poo picked…) looking throughly miserable, dejected, and just not thriving, especially in the winter.

For some (not all I will say!) they would have benefited from some dry, alone time, or just a couple of mates. A friend actually moved her’s so he could have some stable time, and he’s a different horse now.

Yes it depends on the horse. I have a German Warmblood. He’d been in same home 7 years before me, and got 1/2 day solo turnout in small paddock. Immediately before I bought him he’d been stabled 24-7 for 12 weeks.

I kept him on livery for 18 months, out at night about 16 hours with 1-2 other horses.

He never wanted to come in, even winter mornings in dark / wet / wind etc. other horses gate hung once hungry for breakfast not my horse. He was always easy to catch but always had to walk over to far side to get him.

He’d love his mid morning sleep in stable but by 3pm he’d be calling to be turned back out.

I’ve now moved him to be living out, with hard standing, adlib hay and shelters. Will be our first winter but I think he’s weatherproof and happier.

 

[SEL]

I am not convinced that 24/7 turnout was EVER mainstream actually. I certainly don't remember it being a thing, other than for the odd pony somewhere. When I was younger, in at night at the very least was totally standard and I do remember horses on the farm yard, hastily shut in with a variety of gates because the fields were too wet for any field time. Most equine industries don't do 24/7 turnout and many, many families have never had the land or the manpower to do that either. I don't think there was ever an equine Avalon...

We had 24:7 turnout in the early 80s - the only stables were for the hunters who were in from autumn. All the ponies were out unrugged on a huge field (but we had lovely smelly jute rugs to dry them off). It was part of a working farm so guess there was more land.

I got a shock when we moved to Germany and turnout was rare. Everything was bonkers to ride.

 

[Goldenstar]

My TB J lives with a friend he’s old for TB now before he came to me he had not had an outdoor life but he settled to lots of turn out and living out easily .
My friend has no stable but a beautiful park in front of her house oak trees old pasture hahas it’s lovely ,she got a shelter for him but he prefers to stand under the tree house on one of the huge oak trees .
I did wonder how he would would cope and was and still am ready to bring him home if he needed to.
On the other hand I bought a lovely mare a SJer I was warned she did not like to go out and boy she was not into it ,with patience we did get her to accept daily turnout and eventually she would do days in nights out in summer .
Horses are just so different .

 

[Caol Ila]

Indeed they are.

Fin is fine with his current schedule (out at night), but I don't think he would like Hermosa's yard very much. In the winter, they live in communal pens/barns, which sounds nice but he is a horse who likes being able to get as much space as he feels he needs between him and other horses. His wild herd could be pretty violent. In the field, he never joins the gate scrum. On hacks, he doesn't want to me too close to the other horses. His buddy, who I bring him in with, is one of the boss horses, so he clears the gate for us.

If one has to choose between communal pens where they are living at close quarters or part-time individual stabling (with plenty of herd turnout in a big field), I think he would choose the latter.

 

[teapot]

This thread reminded me I got blocked on Instagram by someone because I politely pointed out keeping a horse in complete isolation may well be linked to why it turned into a fire breathing rearing dragon in company…

That’s another thing - I’d rather horses had company of any number even for a few hours, than a more ‘idyllic’ option with zero interaction.

 

[Widgeon]

I find it quite worrying that anyone would advocate locking a horse in a 12x12 box 23hrs a day.

I don't think I've seen anyone on this thread advocating that?

 

[ycbm]

I find it quite worrying that anyone would advocate locking a horse in a 12x12 box 23hrs a day.

Nobody is.
.

 

[Gallop_Away]

Nobody is.
.

Really because it certainly sounds like you are....

If you are not then I am confused why you have taken issue with anything I have said. Do you not agree that keeping a horse stabled with little to no turnout is not ideal with the majority of horses? I am not talking about those horses that prefer to be in. I am talking about yards in winter who have a blanket policy that there is no turnout or it is extremely restricted, and the horses spend almost all their time in their stables. That to me is a welfare issue I'm afraid.

 

[Skib]

When horses were the urban means of transport plenty of them were stabled 24/7 when not out working. The England and Wales censuses which can be read on line for a fee or for free at the National Archives in Kew show privately owned horses were kept in stables attached to the house or in mews near by.
My grandfathers brother in law kept a horse at his house in Sheen while working at the War Ministry and would ride in Richmond park every morning before work. It was expensive to keep a horse for private use and one finds doctors like my gt gt grandfather employing coachmen and stable lads.