Should you buy a horse if you cannot offer 24/7 turnout and can only be on livery?

[Caol Ila]

I think ycbm (and Skib) were responding the assertion that in the 'good ol' days,' 24/7 turnout was more common than it is now. They are saying it wasn't. Quite the opposite, in some cases. But nostaligia ain't what it used to be.

No one is arguing that it's okay to keep horses in 12x12 boxes 24/7 for months on end. I agree that yards should not be allowed to do this.

 

[gallopingby]

Back to the original question - as long as you have the means to fund keeping the horse including vets fees etc etc and somewhere suitable to keep it l see no reason not to. Where the horse is kept will depend on your personal situation as well as the needs of the horse / pony and these will differ depending on the breed/type of horse and what you plan to do. Hopefully these will be taken into account before you commit to buying one. SO1 in your situation l would be making a list of the essentials and then starting to horse hunt ? your current livery yard seems to meet your needs, you maybe could find one a little further away that offered more turnout but is this necessary? The essentials are having someone able to care for the horse 24 hours a day, if need be, as many people don’t have their own land these days. Fortunately l have my horses at home but in this situation finding reliable people to help if you need to be away can be a challenge. The most important thing is finding the right horse/pony so that you’ll both have fun. Hopefully you’ll be able to do this very soon.

 

[ycbm]

Really because it certainly sounds like you are....

If you are not then I am confused why you have taken issue with anything I have said. Do you not agree that keeping a horse stabled with little to no turnout is not ideal with the majority of horses? I am not talking about those horses that prefer to be in. I am talking about yards in winter who have a blanket policy that there is no turnout or it is extremely restricted, and the horses spend almost all their time in their stables. That to me is a welfare issue I'm afraid.

My objection is to your blanket condemnation of everyone who feels obliged for whatever reason to have a horse without turnout this winter, no matter how content and healthy that horse appears to be.
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[SEL]

I think ycbm (and Skib) were responding the assertion that in the 'good ol' days,' 24/7 turnout was more common than it is now. They are saying it wasn't. Quite the opposite, in some cases. But nostaligia ain't what it used to be.

Absolutely. My great grandad was down the pits with the ponies and they had to be masked when they came up to the top because their eyes wouldn't cope with daylight. We just wouldn't do that these days.

Animal welfare has moved on a long way. I can remember visiting zoos when I was a kid and watching animals rocking backwards and forwards - they were the obviously unhappy ones but I suspect their quiet neighbour was just as miserable. We know that horses need space and they need to interact with other horses and really all of us should be trying our best to make sure we provide that. Nothing is perfect (you should the ground outside my shelter after this weekend's deluge) but we can try.

 

[Gallop_Away]

.

I think ycbm (and Skib) were responding the assertion that in the 'good ol' days,' 24/7 turnout was more common than it is now. They are saying it wasn't. Quite the opposite, in some cases. But nostaligia ain't what it used to be.

No one is arguing that it's okay to keep horses in 12x12 boxes 24/7 for months on end. I agree that yards should not be allowed to do this.

If that is the case why has ycbm continued to quote me throughout this discussion? If she is not advocating keeping a horse in a box 23hrs a day then I am unsure why she has taken issue with anything I have said. It is not the first time we have butted heads regarding this discussion, and it's pretty clear we have very different views and what is and isn't an acceptable way for horses to be kept.

I am not suggesting that horses should be out 24/7 365 days a year, simply that in the majority would benefit from a happy medium of both stable time and turnout, and that the trend of yards expecting their liveries to confine their horses to stables in winter is unacceptable.

 

[Gallop_Away]

My objection is to your blanket condemnation of everyone who feels obliged for whatever reason to have a horse without turnout this winter, no matter how content and healthy that horse appears to be.
.

Yes I condem it as I would condem any other act that is at the detriment to the welfare of a horse. As I've said to you previously on this matter, I stand by my view that in general this is not an acceptable way to keep a horse. You clearly believe that it is, as is your perogative, but we are clearly never going to agree on this matter so I see nothing to be gained from further discussion, however I will continue to speak out against something I feel very strongly about.

No animal deserves to be confined to a box for the majority of it's day. If that statement offends then I make no apology and would suggest that if you are content with the way your horses are kept then the opinion of a stranger on a forum should make no difference. If it does strike a nerve then perhaps it's a step in the right direction imo.

ETA - again I am talking in general terms here. Obviously if you have horses that need to be box rested for medical grounds or who simply don't enjoy turnout, I've yet to see one but I'm sure they do exist, then that is a different matter.

 

[ycbm]

Yes I condem it as I would condem any other act that is at the detriment to the against something I feel very strongly about.

No animal deserves to be confined to a box for the majority of it's day. If that statement offends then I make no apology and would suggest that if you are content with the way your horses are kept then the opinion of a stranger on a forum should make no difference. If it does strike a nerve then perhaps it's a step in the right direction imo.

ETA - again I am talking in general terms here. Obviously if you have horses that need to be box rested for medical grounds or who simply don't enjoy turnout, I've yet to see one but I'm sure they do exist, then that is a different matter.

You make so many unsupported assertions. Please point me to the studies over the lifetime of a large number of horses that show that there is a welfare issue at the end of, say 20 years of horses stabled without turnout in winter with suitable exercise.
.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

What movement, when? Have you watched cats?

Cats as in house cats, wild cats, outdoor cats...?

I just feel as though this is sort of a weak point. Of course a house cat wouldn't move when it doesn't have much space and everything it needs right there. When we put an animal in. An unnatural habitat (not much room to roam, no hunting opportunities, no consistent stimulation) then they're not going to act natural, right? FWIW my cat moves quite a bit. Sure he does the typical cat napping but he roams and is quite active at certain times of the day so I'm just not soo sure about this example.

If I overfed him crap food, kept him in a house/small area, and gave him no hunt or "play" opportunities, then yeah, he wouldn't move much.

 

[ycbm]

I agree that a comparison with cats is pointless but it was made earlier in the thread, and the post you quote was in reference to a statement that all mammals need movement. I've kept free range cats for 35 years. They mostly sleep once they have reached adulthood, then move in bursts of one or two hours. That suits their physiology just fine. I still struggle to understand how they can wake from a long sleep and immediately scale a fence or chase a mouse without straining something.
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[stangs]

Can you please point me to that research in horses?
.

I don’t know of any studies specifically targeting choice on equines, beyond the occasional reference in work on enrichment. But here’s a collection involving herbivores, prey animals, and other mammals to help you generalise.

Good overviews of the literature in the following papers
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/zoo.20276
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0168159113000543
https://www.researchgate.net/public..._in_zoo_animals_with_environmental_enrichment
https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...imal-welfare/3F92F36718D7A8A92F0228785828429C

More psychology-based studies
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16812181/
https://doi.org/10.1037/h0025562

Less relevant but super interesting papers
https://www.jstor.org/stable/1130447
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jveb.2008.05.005

 

[ycbm]

I don’t know of any studies specifically targeting choice on equines, beyond the occasional reference in work on enrichment. But here’s a collection involving herbivores, prey animals, and other mammals to help you generalise.

I don't find generalising helpful when making welfare abuse claims about horse owners.
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[CanteringCarrot]

I agree that a comparison with cats is pointless but it was made earlier in the thread, and the post you quote was in reference to a statement that all mammals need movement. I've kept free range cats for 35 years. They mostly sleep once they have reached adulthood, then move in bursts of one or two hours. That suits their physiology just fine. I still struggle to understand how they can wake from a long sleep and immediately scale a fence or chase a mouse without straining something.
.

I don't know. Cats just seem so elastic, flexible, and spry!

 

[Tarragon]

I think these debates are always difficult as the phrases of "turn out" and "stabled" are not sufficient on their own to tell the whole story.
A horse out 24/7 could be in a big field with sufficient grass and natural shelter, or in a small postage stamp of a field with electric fencing on all four sides, or in an overgrazed field knee deep in horse manure and mud.
A horse could be kept out 24/7 on its own, or with a happy herd.
A horse that is stabled could be on a busy yard with plenty going on and stimulation, or in an isolated stable that looks out onto a wall within 5 meters of the door.
A horse can be stabled to keep it out of the flies, the wind, the cold, or it can be stabled to just make it easier for the owner to ride.
Not 24/7 could just mean being stabled a few hours a day in the winter or heat of the summer, or it could mean 23 hours in a stable and 1 hour turnout.
Of course, people are going to disagree!
If you are a caring owner, who cares about the mental and physical well-being of your horse, and it isn't just a thing you can ride, and you have enough money and time to actually do what you know is the right thing to do, then you will have a happy horse and a happy owner.

 

[stangs]

I don't find generalising helpful when making welfare abuse claims.

You know, when something is well accepted by the entire zoo community, an area where welfare is discussed in much more depth and with more funding than it is in the equine sphere, and an area with hundreds of different species with different needs, you may want to accept that the generalisation - based on studies of various species, all providing the same results (i.e., the conclusions are reliable) - works in this case.

Do you seriously not have any better rebuttal than "provide me a very niche example of a study" when you've consistently been making claims on this thread with no studies cited (e.g., posts 36 and 59), no evidence beyond personal anecdotes that may or may not be true?

You asked for research. I provided it. You didn't bother reading it. Great debate.

 

[ycbm]

You asked for research. I provided it.

No, you didn't. You provided research into whether pigeons like a selection of food, how the life of zoo chimpanzees can be enriched, whether farm animals would thrive better on a more varied diet etc

Fascinating but of zero use, as far as I'm concerned in supporting your assertion that there is a welfare concern over horses kept without turnout for the winter months.

That needs a 20 year study of hundreds of horses, unless you think that a broken leg due to a turnout injury, or grass sickness, for examples, are not a welfare issue.
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[stangs]

What movement, when? Have you watched cats?

They mostly sleep once they have reached adulthood, then move in bursts of one or two hours. That suits their physiology just fine.

a) Should have let zoos know of this revelation. Think of all the space they could save if they reverted back to tiny cages because cats don't need to move.
b) Can you please point me to the research?

 

[stangs]

Fascinating but of zero use, as far as I'm concerned in supporting your assertion that there is a welfare concern over horses kept without turnout for the winter months.

We weren't discussing turnout...

You made the claim that

Choice is in itself stressful because it includes the possibility of your choice being the wrong one.

which I replied to by saying that that's just not true at all, and that your claim goes against a fundamental aspect of welfare science.

You then asked for research.
I provided it.

 

[ycbm]

a) Should have let zoos know of this revelation. Think of all the space they could save if they reverted back to tiny cages because cats don't need to move.
b) Can you please point me to the research?

You're just getting silly now. Domestic cats with a catflap do not have any relevance to zoo kept big cats. Cat sleep is well documented if you care to Google it.

 

[Gallop_Away]

You make so many unsupported assertions. Please point me to the studies over the lifetime of a large number of horses that show that there is a welfare issue at the end of, say 20 years of horses stabled without turnout in winter with suitable exercise.
.

Regrettably, I am not aware of such a study, though would be very interested to see the findings myself.

The fact is, there are many practices with horses that were once considered acceptable, that are now no longer considered to be the same. I personally think your line of thinking, "I will continue to do something that may or may not be causing harm to my horse, until it's proved otherwise" very narrow minded.

We only need use common sense to determine that depriving a horse of turnout for vast amounts of time, is certainly not in the horse's best interest and may cause them significant harm psychologically and physically.

Stable vices are typically common in horses that are stabled for long periods of time. A quick online search provides plenty of evidence to support this. These are typically caused by stress and boredom. Ulcers are also more common in horses that are stabled.

Horses are naturally social and seek out the company and interaction with others. This is difficult to achieve in stabled horses, who may be able to see each other but are unable to engage in social and natural equine interaction such as grooming etc.

Another poster has made an excellent comparison to a zoo. It is becoming widely accepted that keeping animals in confined spaces causes them suffering from stress and boredom. Again there is a wealth of reasearch about this. So if it is unacceptable to lock a zebra in a cage, why are we doing it with horses?

I really am shocked and quite saddened that anyone can actually defend this practice.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

Cats as in house cats, wild cats, outdoor cats...?

I just feel as though this is sort of a weak point. Of course a house cat wouldn't move when it doesn't have much space and everything it needs right there. When we put an animal in. An unnatural habitat (not much room to roam, no hunting opportunities, no consistent stimulation) then they're not going to act natural, right? FWIW my cat moves quite a bit. Sure he does the typical cat napping but he roams and is quite active at certain times of the day so I'm just not soo sure about this example.

If I overfed him crap food, kept him in a house/small area, and gave him no hunt or "play" opportunities, then yeah, he wouldn't move much.

My cats have an outdoor cat enclosure both in the city, and at my tiny Summer cabin (the later cat enclosure is larger than the tiny cabin, by the way). E.g. Berta my old Cornish Rex that died 2020 had zero hunt capability, and once stalked a caterpillar for over 2 hours without catching it. Cilla the moggy is 13 years now, and haven't bothered with catching, and bringing inside any prey for years. I'm not going to start starving her to the point she feel she needs to try to hunt her own food, besides, she's never been good at killing her prey, so that probably wouldn't work anyway.

In my city home I have: lots of cat toy balls and mouses, and a few toys I can manually wind up.
I have some electric cat toys.
I have several wands with a toy or ribbon attached to the other end.
I have 2 cat tunnels.
I have 2 of those balls stuck in what I can only describe as a plastic roundabout (Cilla is the first one of all my cats to really think they're any fun, but she still only plays with them periodically, sometimes not using them for probably well over a year).
I have one of those mouses stuck on a spiral attached to a bottom plate, bought it ages ago, and none of my cats have played with it more than once or twice.

I try to variate which toys are avaible, there are days I try throwing balls, days I try moving around waving one of the wands, and Cilla really seems to enjoy watching me try to activate her, but once she was a few years old, does she move?

Not much. Even the laser pointer mainly makes her jabb with her front paws, and she can usually only be bothered to move for maybe a minute or so to try to catch it.

I also have 7 cat trees: 1 mini only around 30cm (but with 5 sticks of various lengths sticking out of it with toys in the other end of them), 1 is around 65cm, 1 is 85cm, 1 is 130cm, 1 is 140cm (I usually have my cats feed bowls in this cat tree), and 1 floor to ceiling. The 7th cat tree is a former floor to ceiling, which my dad moved when I weren't home with the cats to change a broken window, and managed to break. But the longest post + round bottom plate + the cat house have now become an around 130cm floor cat tree, with the post in a horizontal position, which my cats love to trim their claws on, and they occasionally pull themselves along the post.

In my tiny Summer cabin there's only room for 1 cat tree, but I'm guessing it's around 120-125 cm tall, and doubles as a way for the cats to get to their food bowls (which is placed too high for my dogs to reach). I also have a tunnel stuck on a wall next to a window, a tunnel I can put up on the floor, more cat toys, and wands...

And there's probably some things I've forgotten to mention, but either way, I really think I provide my cats with plenty of opportunities, but even Berta the Cornish Rex which was quite agile all the way up until she died, preferred to spend most of her days asleep.

 

[sport horse]

ETA - again I am talking in general terms here. Obviously if you have horses that need to be box rested for medical grounds or who simply don't enjoy turnout, I've yet to see one but I'm sure they do exist, then that is a different matter.

I am surprised that you have never seen a horse that does not like to be turned out. I looked after a friends horse, many years ago, when she emigrated to USA and while she arranged the horse's export. Just turn him out in the day I was asked. So I did. Said horse stood by the gate and looked at me aghast. I told him to p... of and go eat grass and off I went to muck out. 10 minutes later said horse arrived in the yard. He had jumped over five fences through four paddocks and my back garden to get himself back to his stable. It became a daily routine until my garden was suffering. I rang my dear friend who laughed hysterically, and said, oh yes he hates being out!! Thank you friend, now departed and so missed.

 

[Gallop_Away]

I am surprised that you have never seen a horse that does not like to be turned out. I looked after a friends horse, many years ago, when she emigrated to USA and while she arranged the horse's export. Just turn him out in the day I was asked. So I did. Said horse stood by the gate and looked at me aghast. I told him to p... of and go eat grass and off I went to muck out. 10 minutes later said horse arrived in the yard. He had jumped over five fences through four paddocks and my back garden to get himself back to his stable. It became a daily routine until my garden was suffering. I rang my dear friend who laughed hysterically, and said, oh yes he hates being out!! Thank you friend, now departed and so missed.

As I say I've no doubt they exist and don't get me wrong, whilst mine go out happily each morning, when the weather turns or they know it is tea time they are waiting by the gate wanting in!
I've no doubt there are horses who don't enjoy being out for long periods or perhaps not at all. I just haven't come across any myself in the years I have owned and been around horses.

 

[Fieldlife]

As I say I've no doubt they exist and don't get me wrong, whilst mine go out happily each morning, when the weather turns or they know it is tea time they are waiting by the gate wanting in!
I've no doubt there are horses who don't enjoy being out for long periods or perhaps not at all. I just haven't come across any myself in the years I have owned and been around horses.

I’ve come across them but never owned any. None of my horse in last 24 years have not enjoyed turnout, even the various horses with little turnout before I bought them.

But I do see horses when there is grass and established company still preferring in again after a few hours. (Mainly ex racehorses, even >15 years since raced). And horses that hate rain.

I guess if you are going to limit turnout, worth buying a horse that seems used to this and happy with this.

 

[Annagain]

When I bought Wiggy, he'd lived out 24/7 for 5 years but on individual turnout (with friends on 3 sides with whom he'd groom and play). With me, he's out 24/7 in a small herd in summer and he'll have to come in overnight during winter. I worried first about keeping him safe in a herd (no problems at all, he fitted straight in - it's a lovely little group of horses to be fair and he's a friendly, easy-going chap) and then about him adjusting to coming in. I started having him in while I was there with Arch for company, then on his own, then leaving him for an hour etc. At the moment they don't have loads of grass so he's coming in every evening, filling his belly with hay and then going out again after two or three hours. Every night without fail he's waiting at the gate. I think he'll be fine overnight.

Clearly in his eyes, neither system is terrible. As long as he's got food, he's happy either way. His old owner did her best in her circumstances and I'm doing my best in mine. I think we, as owners, build up a picture of what we think is right and beat ourselves up if we can't deliver that but the reality is life (especially life with horses) is full of compromises and we're all (or most of us on here here at least!) just doing the best we can.

 

[Snow Falcon]

"Should you buy a horse if you cannot offer 24/7 turnout and can only be on livery?"

Quite simply why not?

Having met you and read your posts for a number of years, there is no doubt in my mind that you are a caring, kind and experienced person who has a lot to offer an equine. Don't overthink things, when you are ready start searching.

 

[ycbm]

So if it is unacceptable to lock a zebra in a cage, why are we doing it with horses?

Horses have been bred for hundreds of years to work for man and survive or, heaven forbid, even thrive in very different conditions than those of wild horses.

Zebras have not, and except in very rare cases, cannot even be exercised.
.

 

[ycbm]

"Should you buy a horse if you cannot offer 24/7 turnout and can only be on livery?"

Quite simply why not?

Having met you and read your posts for a number of years, there is no doubt in my mind that you are a caring, kind and experienced person who has a lot to offer an equine. Don't overthink things, when you are ready start searching.

Great post, I hope we can end this discussion on it.
.

 

[Gallop_Away]

Horses have been bred for hundreds of years to work for man and survive or, heaven forbid, even thrive in very different conditions than those of wild horses.

Zebras have not, and except in very rare cases, cannot even be exercised.
.

But regardless of breeding, horses social nature hasn't changed. You may breed and condition them to accept their circumstances, but that will not change the nature of a naturally sociable animal.

I also note that you completely ignored every other point I made as to the harm stabling can cause physically and mental.

As I have said several times, you are clearly set in your views with what ways you believe are acceptable to keep horses and they are clearly very opposite to mine. We will clearly never agree on the matter and I while I find it quite appalling that anyone would advocate locking any animal in a box for the majority of it's day, which despite you stating you are not fron your posts you appear to be arguing that very thing, I see nothing further to be gained from discussing this matter further.

I agree I am very happy to end the discussion there, and wish the OP luck in their search. OP there are many yards that still see the benefit of turnout and place the welfare of the horses above keeping fields pristine. I hope you find what you are looking for in both an equine companion and a yard that will suit what you want for them.

 

[Flyermc]

I wouldnt personally choose to have a horse if i couldnt find a yard that offered -

24-7 turnout in summer for at least 6 months of the year
had winter daily turnout for at least half a day

My previous yard had this and it really suited my life style, as i didnt want to be mucking out and doing haynets all year round, so a summer 'break' is nice. It also meant that i have time to really clean my stable over the summer, ready for winter months and i could go and get my boy out of the field, brush him and go for some nice long hacks with friends. Summer also meant that i didnt have bedding or hay costs and as a welsh, i also didnt feed hard feed either.

Being able to turnout in the day in winter again fitted with my life style. I could turn him out and do jobs before work, so after work, id bring him in, brush and ride. It also meant that if i didnt want to ride or the weather was awful, i wasnt worried that he's been in all day or end-up spending an hour hand walking around the yard to stretch his legs. It also meant that it was cheaper, as not being in, in the day saved on bedding. I was also able to give him as much hay as he wanted over night as there wasnt much grass in the field.

This life style suited us both and i cant really imagine having to muck out all year round or worrying about him having been stood in for most of the day in winter. I sadly lost my boy nearly 3 years ago, but i wouldnt personally consider getting another unless i could find a yard with good turnout.

 

[Sossigpoker]

It is arguably nobody else's business but I personally think a horse being confined to a stable 23hrs a day for half of the year is a welfare issue. I have seen people attempt to justify and yes in some cases it may suit some horses, but I can not see any justifiable reason that the average horse is better off being confined to a stable for the majority of the day, 6 months of the year however people may try to justify it. It is fair to say that the average horse benefits from some form of daily turnout for at least a few hours a day and that is better for them mentally and physically than being confined to a stable 23hrs a day.

As for it not causing illness or concern to the horses, again I would argue it most definitely can be a cause for stress in horses. The majority of racehorse spend the majority of their time in a stable and stable vices such as cribbing, weaving, box walking etc are very commob among them.

My very experienced and senior vet also told me once after my mare had an impaction colic, that in her professional opinion, lack of turnout and movement in horses during winter is a massive contributor to the amount of colic cases we see during those months. Of course there are many other reasons it could be that a horse colics, but I can understand the logic, and in my vets experience, she sees an increase in colic cases during the winter months and particularly in horses on heavily restricted or practically no turnout. Our then yard owner had decided to limit turnout that winter. I moved my horses a month later to our current yard and haven't looked back. I will never keep my horses at a yard that restricts turnout again.

I see people attempt to justify keeping their horses in 23hrs a day so many times on this forum and I understand people must do the best with what they have, but personally if I couldn't offer my horses some form of daily turnout for a few hours a day 365 days a year, I personally wouldn't choose to have them.

Keeping a horse shut in is absolutely causing a concern and illness so I don't think ycbm was in any way justifying this.

I had mine at a yard with no winter turn out and after 6 months couldn't do it to him any more. Just because most horses cope with that doesn't make it ok. Never again.