So were the posters who backed Jamie Gray "Trolls" ?

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Well said !!!! Lid is now back on i think..enough is enough..We got to starve this troll to death now,it support that anyway so it should be no problem

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PW, back last year you said that you know of many good horse traders and that Jamie Gray gives them a bad name. So answer a question for me seeing that you seem to think you know alot about the horse trade....


Would it be in a horse traders best interest buy healthy horses and then starve them to death, and near to death?


Any straight thinking person would not need to know anything about the horse trade to know that purchasing healthy animals and starving them to death would not be in the best interest of the trader. It's common sense for goodness sake.
 
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Patty..you should be sectioned under the mental health act...what is going on in ur head to even try to defend this man.

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Show me a single shred of evidence that proves Mr Gray is guilty of starving his animals to death?
 
Oh crikey can't believe that this thread is still going on and a few more trolls have appeared.....MJ/Patty is on ignore but can only guess.why do you guys keep asking questions it doesn't know anyway ? have any questions been answered yet in this thread now ?
Don't feed IT and it will go away MJ/Patty got no problems with living creatures being starved to death anyway so there will be no hard feelings...! MJ/Patty and a few other trolls are as low life as them so why go down on their level..
Kids are finally back to sleep so nite nite zzzzzzzzzzzzz
 
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Sorry My Jack, been at Badminton today.

Questions for you as you were at the court.

How many horses were confiscated Jan 4th?

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14

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How many altogether (over the few days) and on who's jurisdiction?

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If my memory serves me right it was 125.

Vet Nicolas De Brauwere and the RSPCA that scratch eachothers backs.

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How many horses were truthfully found dead?

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I think it was either 21 or 23 but to be totally honest I cant be sure as I got a little confused with the KH, RS, and C, numbers which were used to identify individual animals.

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Who did the post mortems and what were the results?

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RSPCA sidekick and it was done on the back of a knacker lorry but was not done thoroughly. Back last year, just a day or 2 after the animals were removed Mr gray informed the RSPCA that he wanted to have post mortems carried out on the dead animals but he was told that they had been destroyed - then HEY PRESTO, the RSPCA come up with some post mortem results that apparently said the animals died of starvation. However, this claim was refuted in court by two experts, and concering the post mortem document, Mr John Parker bought it to the attention of the court that it had been edited by a differen hand.


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Of those removed how many were shown to be emaciated?

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According to the RSPCA's first load of hog wash - all of them. However, they changed their tune a number of times and came up with all different numbers at different times. When Mr Gray asked Mr Seabrook to show him photos of all the so-called 100+ emaciated horses, ponys and donkeys, Mr Seabrook ignored the question and moved on because he couldnt produce them because they didnt exist.

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Of those described as emaciated, how long had he owned them?

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Apart from some of the pets he didnt own any of them for very long. A large number of them was purchased in november and December 2007. Some of the donkeys and shetlands were born on the farm and a handful of the larger animals had been with him longer.

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Did they produce evidence to show how long he had owned the "emaciated" animals?

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Apart from some of the pets which he had owned for many years, he produced evidence for each and every animal. including that of the deceased animals too (accept for his buried pets). Dates he purchased them - where He purchased them from and the people he purchased them from.

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How many were in a satisfactory condition?

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According to the RSPCA - none. But again, in court when questions were being fired at them, they had no choice but to say some of the horses were in good condition and fairly good condition. Then when asked for their reasons for removing that particular animal from spindles farm, they said they believed it would be at risk if they left it there. The witnesses for the prosecution constantly contradicted each other and their own hand written notes made at the time of the raid, and witness statements made just after the raid.

On the 4 of January 08 14 animals were removed from the farm, and I believe another 1 or 2 were removed on one of the following days leading up to the 9th (I cant be 100% sure of that though). All the animals which were removed at that point were said to have been 'at risk' but all the other animals were said to be fine. Between the 4th and the 9th Kirsty Hampton and others went back to the farm to check any instructions that they had given on the previous day were being done, ie, clean out the deep litter bedding in the barns. There was nothing wrong with the bedding which is practised by farmers all over the country and deemed as good farming practice. But Mr Gray had arranged for it to be done as she had asked, and it was being done on the morning of the 9th by a man Mr Gray had used for many years. However, Kirsty Hampton had a stop put to it when she arrived at the farm.

Being that a vet had already said the remaining animals were perfectly ok, the RSPCA couldn't exactly tell the court that they went back to Spindles farm on the 9th to remove those remaining animals. However, under cross examination many of the prosecution witnesses told the court that their reason for returning to the farm was to remove the remaining animals. On that morning the RSPCA was met by a member of the Gray family and another lady at the enterance of the yard of Spindles farm. Kirsty Hampton made it no secret to that family member that they were there to remove the rest of the animals. But this was denied by herself in the court. However, her peers did her no favors when giving their evidence. A secret meeting was held and they discussed the operation they were about to carry out. Kirsty Hampton denied that they had spoken about it. However, when some of her peers were asked the reason for the meeting, they openly told the court that they disscussed the raid and removing the remaining animals.

Prior to the 9th Kirsty Hampton had arranged a meeting with Mrs Gray at spindles farm for that very day, but phoned and cancled the meeting saying she couldnt make it. Funny that, considering she appeared at the gates of the yard not long after that phone call.

Now, if the RSPCA went to Spindles Farm for any other reason than to remove the remaining animals, why on earth did they arrange for horse boxes and helpers from over the country to be there?

The court was told that within 10 minutes of their arrival the animals were being sprayed with numbers ready for removal. And a vet was not even present at that point - he arrived at the yard just after. Some of the animals were not even checked by the vet before they were loaded. Those animals were given clean bills of health just days before by vets and nothing had changed since then. When the defense asked why the vet supported the removing of healthy animals he didnt know what to say - it was one of the vets that said the remaining animals were just fine. Nothing had changed since then and the horses were not re-examined anymore to even justify him supporting the removal of heathly animals. The RSPCA entered the farm that day and removed all remaining animals without a shred of veterinary advice to justify their actions.


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How many were lame?

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1. And Mr Gray had only just purchased it. He called his farrier and put it on bute until the farrier could get out to him.

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How many were PTS and on what grounds? Again, on whose jurisdiction?

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I think it was 4 but it could have possibly only been 3.

Grounds: Apparently they were too weak for transit. However, they didnt care about taking a heavily pregnent Jenny in transit... That donkey gave bith the very next day.


Vet.



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Was JG allowed his own vet to be present when the RSPCA raided?

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Yes, Bob Baskerville was his vet and Mr Gray called him up to the yard when the RSPCA turned up. At that point Bob Baskerville supported Mr Gray and was angey about the whole this. But like many other cases, they somehow swung him their way with days.


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Was a second opinion allowed before the horses were PTS?

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I heard nothing in court about a second opinion being offered to Mr Gray.

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What time did the RSPCA raid Spindles farm? If my memory serves me right it was 6 am?

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2.30pm on the 4th and 10.30am on the 9th. There was no 6am raid. However, it came out in court that there was food and clean water at the time the RSPCA raided.

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And am I right in thinking they had no hay at 6am or was it inadequate hay?

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Like I said, there was no 6am raid.

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And half filled troughs of water or no water?
Where they had no water, were there containers that could have had water in the night before?

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According to the defense evidence, and evidence given by some of the prosecution witnesses, the animals had clean drinking water at the time of the raid.

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Did Jamie Gray's defence produce evidence that showed he had arranged disposal of the carcasses?

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Only orally.


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Sorry! Loads of questions!

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No problem what so ever....

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I have more but this will do for now!

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No problem - Fire away!!

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I have tried to ask questions that are factual.

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You ask very good and valid questions.

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If you can answer please do!
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I cant be doing with all this cloak and dagger stuff!
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Dozzie

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Im happy to answer any questions. I told the forum I would return after the case and answer their questions that I couldnt answer back last year.
 
Looks like the whole Gray family has logged on now......I can only think that anyone who would stick up for the Grays are either them themselves or people who keep animals in the same condiions and see nothing wrong with it!!
 
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I really do think MJ is talking shite.
IF she/he had evidence that could clear the Grays it would have been sensable to provide it at the trial,not hint at it on a forum
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Whatever the intrest in the Grays MJ,spit out whatever you think you know or shut up about it.
 
They are all full of it and all info can be found online so you don't need to have been at the trial to find it ...And NOWHERE does it state that Bob Baskerville was J.G's vet, opposite as a matter of fact,personally I would have my vet testifying for ME not the other side..
I have left messages for Katie and Peter Fennelly on their mobiles,so i am hoping that I will hear the truth from the horses mouth.
Bob is retired after his accident with the youngster last year, so i don't want to bother him.
If it was any truth in it Katie would have told me when she treated my horse last year.Or i will ring the girls in the reception in the morning !
I have been a client with them since 1992 so they will tell me
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paddywack - they might tell you but it would still be entirely wrong to reproduce that information here if it is not from a properly sanctioned source - after all there may yet be an appeal.

I don't go for all the rubbish spouted by patty. Some might have some truth buried deep within it but I have other questions.

If, has been suggested, these animals were already in a very poor state before JG purchased them, why on earth did he buy them? Is he claiming to be a poor businessman and complete numpty at judging horseflesh rather than cruel and neglectful?

Why have further emaciated animals been removed from him in the months since the original raid (which are now recovering BTW) - does he keep buying skinny, nearly dead ponies?

Why did he have so many animals in such poor condition?A responsible person would have cut down their stock to a level where they could manage it properly, not just keep buying more and more and more until they are overcrowded and living in squalor.
 
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if patty and family put as much effort into looking after there horses as they do posting on here this could all be avoided
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Good point
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now see that really pisses me off.

myself and many others saw the horses and donkeys at the horse trust and there was no excuse for there conditon.

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Where are the photos of all the horses and donkeys that were in such bad condition? The prosecution couldnt come up with any such photos and neither can you. A member of the Gray family walked around with RSPCA Kirsty Hampton and stood side by side and took the exact same photos of all the animals that Kirsty Hampton took...however, the RSPCA only produced photos to the court of the fallen stock - but The Grays provided every single party of the prosecution team and the defence team with a supersized copy of ALL the photoes that were taken that day.

The defence also provided the court with supersized photos of a 4 year old Jamie Gray Junior and one of the girls with one of the animals that was siezed by the RSPCA in Jan 08. They had owned that particular animal for 16 years. Another supersized photo was provided to the court of the younger members of the Gray family and grandchildren interacting with another of the pets that they had owned for years and which was also removed by the RSPCA.

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MJ i see you refured to the grays dead horses as pets again. What a load of rubbish your either a trader or your not..

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Not all were pets and I have never claimed they were. But what are you saying - That traders cant have pets?

Please define YOUR idea of a trader?


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oh no the poor pony died.. i know lets drag it out the way by a car and cliam it to be a pet.. FFS get real woman.

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Please provide a single shred of evidence that supports what you have just said?

Not even the prosecution put any such claim to any of the defence. And no so-called witness of such treatment was called either.

Many claim they dont believe everything the media tells them, yet they believe such rubish without a shred of evidence.
 
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Goodness, I have seen lots of horses barned and they are never kept in the conditions seen at Spindles farm.

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If I were you I wouldnt be saying such thing on an open forum - The RSPCA could have a wail of a time with you. You dont have to be guilty of any crime.


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If you are suggesting that horses normally turn a base into pure excrement in a matter of hours, then I expect there are far too many horses in a small space with inadequate bedding.

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I have suggested no such thing.
 
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Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't this a trial? Therefore it wasn't the 'authorities' that found them guilty but a jury of 12 British citizens

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Correction: It wasnt a jury but a single judge at Bicester Magistrates court.

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The same 12 citizens that have sat through the whole trial and heard the same evidence that you did patty but had a totally different idea of what cruelty is

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Again, it was a single Judge at Bicester.
 
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hiya myjack...

is my invitation for a visit still open??

can you email me??


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Hiya, I will find out and let you know.

I wont bother emailing you though. Anything I have to say will be said out in the open on this forum. But thanks for the invitation anyway.

Hope you are keeping well.
 
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Are you ignoring me now, myjack?

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Hello again JM07 - I'm certainly not ignoring you but simply trying to get through the mountain of posts.

Take care.
 
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if you have been sitting in the court everyday i can therefore conclude you do not have a job???? there fore not contributing to society
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;);)?????

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You are correct in your conclusion that I dont have a job. However, I am a wife and a mother, and my husband is very successful in his line of business.
 
I dont trust the RSPCA one little bit... But some of the carcases that are on the video are more than a week old.

Why did he not drag all the dead out into one area to await collection by the knacker?

Why were there 2 or 3 carcases left in with the living horses?

Why was the bedding in the video in such a disgusting state (I have seen deep litter with cattle sheep and horses (barn kept) and its pretty much clean)

I cant get my head around it you are right that its not good business practice to starve horses I dont understand it!!!
 
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Is myjack/patty a friend or relation to Jamie Gray?

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Over the past 16months I have had my eyes opened and have been fortunate enough to speak to some members of the Gray family.
 
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I will charitably assume that Myjack has missed this post and will now get around to answering each point in it as they promised they would.

I would also like to ask Myjack who they are, and what relation are they/ how do they know James Grey.

Thank you.

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Sorry it took so long to answer that post but I honestly didnt see it and only came to it after working my way through the posts. However, I have answered it now.

To answer your question - see my previous post.

Hope this helps.
 
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patty my dear, i most certainly do not believe everything the media tells me , i am more than capable of making up my mind i have seen photographic eveidence which in my mind is real and that is all i need , unless you are trying to tell me that these horses where dumped in this condition on the unfortunate mr gray???

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They most certainly was NOT dumped on Mr Gray.

However, the court heard the evidence of each animal and when they died. Sure there is photos of dead animals but the story the media have published behind those photos is as far from the truth as it could possibly get.


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and he in his good heartedness did all in his godly power to do his best for them to change there fortune???
i beg to differ

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I can see you are being sarcastic to me, so maybe you can tell me what Mr Gray, a TRADER, could possibly gain if he had purchased fit weighty animals, took them back to his yard, and starved them to death?

Please do enlighten me because it never entered my mind that a trader gained finanically by purchasing healthy animals then leaving them to die of starvation.


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and if you are so good at answering questions please do me the favour of telling me who you are ????

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See 1 of my previous posts (3 or 4 before this one)


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i am more than willing to return the favour
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ill even invite you round to debate this further
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Thank you.
 
i would never dream of being sarcastic- simply ironic, sarcasm with out any nasty intent
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insidently do any of your replies consist of any thing other that the media lying and the rspca lying as these excuses are now rather tedious
best wishes
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I took a breather and did some logical thinking.

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Would you mind telling me what you came up with?

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And now would like to know what your justification is for the photographic and video evidence of rotting corpses? Do you claim they were not james grey's responsibility.

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Two animals went down that morning. A Gray pony and the pony near the water trough.. The pony near the water trough was PTS.

Some of the other animals were pets that had been buried. Others were to be collected by the knacker man. Another shetland which was a pet and was going to be buried. Mr Grays machine broke down and he had gone to get a part for it when the RSPCA arrived. He reveived a phone call telling him that the RSPCA was at the farm so he turned around and went back.

Mr Gray used the same knacker man as the RSPCA in that area.

2 weeks prior to the RSPCA arriving at the farm, an RSPCA inspector named Claire Ryder stopped by the farm on her way back to her parents home for the christmas holiday. She and Mrs Gray had a general conversation in which she commented on Mrs Grays coat. In her evidence she said all was well at the farm and she saw no dead animals. She also contradicted the RSPCA and media reports about the food, water and bedding situations on the 9th.

On the 21st of December vet Katie Robinson from Bob Baskervilles practice, was in the yard examining animals at Mr Grays request. She used pen 3 to examine each animal. then she issued health certificates for all those animals. She neither saw dead animals.

Mr Gray lost alot of his stock in 2 weeks.


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I am also patiently awaiting a reply to the quoted post above. In your own time.
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I think you may be speaking of a post I have not long just replied to. If I am wrong please bring the post to my attention.

Thank you.
 
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Alot of people have asked the same question of who is responsible for the horses but still noone has been answered

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Jamie Gray Senior was responible for his animals.

But people have been asking questions such as - who was responsible for starving them to death and who was responsable for them being emaciated etc..... questions that could only evolve from media rubbish.

If people want to ask questions then they should ask detailed questions instead of sweeping questions.

Dozzie asked some very good and valid questions.
 
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TBH I don't think I could put up with MJ's constant dodging of straight forward questions face to face.
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Naturally, if you feel I have been dodging questions would you mind directing me to them so I answer them?

I have not dodged any questions - at least not intentionally anyway.
 
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Does myjack/patty not feel anything for the way these horses suffered? Surely anyone with a heart could see that it was cruelty & neglect.

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Oh dear - if only you knew my love for animals.

If only you could see the anger and upset that runs through my veins for those who ill treat animals, children, and the elderly.

I truely could do time for such people.
 
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The one thing I am curious about but obviously didn't word correctly in my initial list of questions is that MJ/Patty seems to be clear in their own mind that the Greys were not the people responsible for looking after these animals - so perhaps MJ/Patty can tell us who was responsible for looking after these animals.

Is that a clear enough question? Or will MJ/Patty find a politicians way of answering it?

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I have never said, nor have I ever insinuated that Mr Gray wasnt responsible for looking after the animals. Of course he was.
 
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IMO MJ/Patty is not a troll. She sat through the court case and heard the evidence. I, for one, would like to hear what was said.

Another question MJ! Was there a jury? Lets just clarify this!
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No there wasnt a jury.

Mr Gray wanted it to go to crown but they said it wasnt possible at that point.
 
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