So what has British Eventing done wrong?

[RachelFerd]

I don’t think this post is weird. I think it can be summed up as ‘people are so much wetter than they used to be’ which is very true and a major contributor to many of the problems listed in this thread.

There I said it.

I even turned into a complete wet lettuce myself upon returning to riding after a break, having read all the confidence (sapping) guff going around on social media. Jumping 50cm courses repeatedly to ‘build confidence,’ never going out of my comfort zone etc etc.
It took Lucinda Green saying to me on a clinic ‘why are you here if you just want to trot and jump 60cm? Why do xc at all?’ and I said ‘I do want to canter and jump bigger fences but it’s just my confidence I need to build up,’ and she said ‘everyone gets nervous, it’s not special just bloody well go and do it if you want to do it.’ It’s like something snapped back into place in my brain. Every other trainer had been saying ‘oh yes, just jump twigs until you are no longer scared’ well that’s not going to happen is it!?

I honestly think that social media is conditioning riders to think that being perpetually terrified on a horse, and having endless psychotherapy and confidence coaching in order to be able to trot down a hill is usual. It’s not. Lots of people would do much better just getting a grip, and the confidence coach brigade is in my view a large contributory factor to the dumbing down of the sport. Which is not a good thing.

I have rather enjoyed this post. Well done you - and Lucinda!

 

[teapot]

I don’t think this post is weird. I think it can be summed up as ‘people are so much wetter than they used to be’ which is very true and a major contributor to many of the problems listed in this thread.

There I said it.

I even turned into a complete wet lettuce myself upon returning to riding after a break, having read all the confidence (sapping) guff going around on social media. Jumping 50cm courses repeatedly to ‘build confidence,’ never going out of my comfort zone etc etc.
It took Lucinda Green saying to me on a clinic ‘why are you here if you just want to trot and jump 60cm? Why do xc at all?’ and I said ‘I do want to canter and jump bigger fences but it’s just my confidence I need to build up,’ and she said ‘everyone gets nervous, it’s not special just bloody well go and do it if you want to do it.’ It’s like something snapped back into place in my brain. Every other trainer had been saying ‘oh yes, just jump twigs until you are no longer scared’ well that’s not going to happen is it!?

I honestly think that social media is conditioning riders to think that being perpetually terrified on a horse, and having endless psychotherapy and confidence coaching in order to be able to trot down a hill is usual. It’s not. Lots of people would do much better just getting a grip, and the confidence coach brigade is in my view a large contributory factor to the dumbing down of the sport. Which is not a good thing.

Love this. Similar vein, two weeks ago having been asked to find a horse's fifth gear, said I felt 'out of control', coach raised an eyebrow, tipped head to one side and simply went 'there's a vast difference between being out of control and being a control freak'. Brain took two seconds to go 'absolutely right' and on we went, ended the lesson flying. First time anyone's said that to me and I won't forget it. Learnt more in one lesson than many many others.

So, on that note, has coaching/teaching now passed where it really did need to go, and is stuck in a rut of everything's a journey, a stepping stone, watch our journey on social media, we're aiming for the perfect BE 80 next year, if we achieve our ticklist of goals, and again forgotten that training and education is about hard work, repetition, and sometimes getting on with it? I'm all for plans and goals, absolutely nothing wrong with those, but has the process itself been dumbed down too? Has it become too tick box perfect?

Disgressing from post subject, but I find this stuff fascinating.

 

[Red-1]

I don’t think this post is weird. I think it can be summed up as ‘people are so much wetter than they used to be’ which is very true and a major contributor to many of the problems listed in this thread.

There I said it.

I even turned into a complete wet lettuce myself upon returning to riding after a break, having read all the confidence (sapping) guff going around on social media. Jumping 50cm courses repeatedly to ‘build confidence,’ never going out of my comfort zone etc etc.
It took Lucinda Green saying to me on a clinic ‘why are you here if you just want to trot and jump 60cm? Why do xc at all?’ and I said ‘I do want to canter and jump bigger fences but it’s just my confidence I need to build up,’ and she said ‘everyone gets nervous, it’s not special just bloody well go and do it if you want to do it.’ It’s like something snapped back into place in my brain. Every other trainer had been saying ‘oh yes, just jump twigs until you are no longer scared’ well that’s not going to happen is it!?

I honestly think that social media is conditioning riders to think that being perpetually terrified on a horse, and having endless psychotherapy and confidence coaching in order to be able to trot down a hill is usual. It’s not. Lots of people would do much better just getting a grip, and the confidence coach brigade is in my view a large contributory factor to the dumbing down of the sport. Which is not a good thing.

I think that is too simplistic. I have been on a Lucinda Green clinic and also ended the session doing far more than I thought possible at the start, on a technical level (I had 2 horses running at BE Novice at the time, I was fine to kick on at a big fence).

However, I think tarring all confidence coaches with the same brush is also unhelpful. Two previous clients of mine entered the Kilpingcoats Derby (separately, they didn't know each other and it was different years), one jumps FEI, some hunt, event, dressage and SJ. Oh, and quite a few doing endurance too, showing at county level, oh, and cutting (from my time teaching in America). And, yes, some happily hack. I always saw my one of my successes being where a client outgrew me, and went to a discipline specific trainer. No, they didn't do those things while I was their teacher, but they went on to do them, confident in their ability to know what they wanted to do and what they don't. I don't see it as my failure that they did those things with different coaches; I bask in the knowledge that I had a hand in their journey.

That is what I could teach, to recognise risk and own it, deciding what they wanted to do and the level of risk they wanted to take. To plan their next steps. To take charge of their training.

Your view is a bit like saying that no event coaches are good or effective because some of them have clients who don't progress. Or, I have seen a whole load of accidents on XC schooling sessions where a (respected) coach has pushed people. I was recently on a session where one rider fell twice and only didn't go again because the bridle broke. I wouldn't have been trying either of the exercises with that horse/rider combination. It doesn't mean that all XC coaches are rubbish.

I also know that, often, it is 'stuff' happening outside of the horses that causes a confidence dip. And yes, sometimes it is appropriate on a lesson to tell someone to kick on, remember what it was like as a kid, before the weight of the world was on your shoulders, ride him like you stole him etc. Often people need time though, it is supposed to be fun.

 

[Ambers Echo]

There are plenty of ‘bloody well get on with it ‘ coaches. That’s nothing new. Many people respond well to it, especially if they like and trust the coach. Or the coach can make them laugh. Some absolutely don’t, leave the lesson feeling like total failures, blame themselves for being wet - and even sometimes just quit. But if a rider is genuinely scared of a jump (not just talking themselves out of it) they will almost inevitably ride passively at it, take their leg off, look down, chuck the reins away, tip forward etc etc. You can’t just override those reactions because someone is yelling at you.

Passive riding is a bad experience for horse and rider. So yes it’s far too simplistic to say people are just wetter now. A good coach - just like a good horse trainer - knows when a kick up the ar$e is needed or when you need to back off, slow down, try a different way.

I know a rider who came back from a Somerford clinic, pulled out of the event she was preparing for and has never ridden XC since. Some might say coach did her a favour as she wasn’t cut out for XC but that’s nonsense. Plenty of people can go from fearful and tentative to bold and confident.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

Plenty of people can go from fearful and tentative to bold and confident.

And vice versa too ?

Having evented way back in time and got to do roads and tracks plus steeplechase by 1980 through to end of 86, I'd now say I'm tentative but probably not fearful.
Whereas once I'd cheerfully crack on with 3ft 6/9 I now a, haven't got (or want!) the mount to do that and b, I have absolutely desire to do that.
I'm happier bundling around 70/75 at clinics etc on my 14hh, but cheerfully go and help friends out at events when asked as I still enjoy the whole shebang, just not wanting to do it myself anymore ?

 

[Ambers Echo]

Yes there’s that too. Riding XC is fun! Some people have no desire at all to jump big. They just enjoy it at whatever level they are happy with. What on earth is wrong with that? The idea that there is ‘no point’ only jumping 60cm is bizarre. There’s no point to any of it as all sport is fundamentally pointless. So we all do it for our own individual reasons: some are ambitious/competitive, some want to have fun well within their ability.

 

[Patterdale]

Your view is a bit like saying that no event coaches are good or effective because some of them have clients who don't progress. Or, I have seen a whole load of accidents on XC schooling sessions where a (respected) coach has pushed people. I was recently on a session where one rider fell twice and only didn't go again because the bridle broke. I wouldn't have been trying either of the exercises with that horse/rider combination. It doesn't mean that all XC coaches are rubbish.

I think you’ve missed the point a bit. I certainly don’t think that all XC coaches are rubbish or that everyone will be able to do it if they’re told to get on with it. That’s not what I said at all.

The fact remains though that people ARE much wetter than they used to be and that the world and society very much supports, encourages and enables this - both inside and outside equestrianism.

This doesn’t mean that I think everyone should be brave, or that there’s anything wrong with jumping 70 forever. There isn’t.

It’s far deeper than that, it’s a massive attitude shift that I perceive in the last 10-15 years which I DO think has hugely affected many areas of life, eventing included.
Wanting to jump everything on a surface, to be super duper safe at all times, never leaving the arena, needing £250 stirrups before you can safely put a foot in one, needing an absolutely perfect super-safe robot horse to hang said stirrup on, withdrawing and complaining if the ground is anything but a bowling green.
There were always these attitudes in the minority before, but nowadays they are positively encouraged by social media in particular. Again, I’m not saying it’s wrong, you do you etc, but I do think that whether right or wrong, it’s having a rapid and possibly irreversible effect on many areas of equestrianism.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I think you’re attacking straw men. Most events are not on a surface. They don’t get cancelled for hard or boggy ground. And eventers at any level very definitely ride outside arenas! So I’m not really sure where that’s all coming from tbh.

 

[Patterdale]

More events than ever are on a surface; every year there are fewer on grass and more on surfaces across all disciplines. This has been a massive change in the last 10-15 years and is driven by many competitors not wanting to ride on grass.

Events don’t often get cancelled for hard or boggy ground, but many riders certainly withdraw and don’t go back if it’s not perfect.

And many, MANY riders across all disciplines (including high level eventing) do the vast majority of their riding on a surface. With hacking on lanes and trips to the (pristine or surfaced) gallops as their out-of-arena time.

Again - not attacking this. But it’s all fact and it’s all having an impact on the way equestrian events are run.

 

[Rowreach]

It wasn't that long ago that eventers were complaining about grass roots classes dumbing down the sport, but failing to acknowledge that by bringing it under the official umbrella it was effectively destroying the UA scene which some people loved and relied on. And now the tables have turned.

Changes happen and they'll always annoy somebody. I don't think it's fair to blame the end user.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Ok well that’s slightly different from riders are getting wetter

I think huge increases in traffic make hacking less safe or appealing in many parts of the country. That definitely is a problem.

Riding schools are more health n safety conscious - largely driven by insurance requirements- so that kind of messing about - bareback etc isn’t done as much.

I’m impressed by riders who write off £100+ to withdraw to save their horses legs on hard ground. Michen being one. She’s hardly ‘wet’! She’s bold and spends all winter hunting. Considering the welfare of the animal you’re on is not a regressive step I don’t think.

Similar points have been made up thread about riders all round education these days and the way in which opportunities for some of the foundations are decreasing. I agree with all of that though I’m not sure what the solution is.

 

[palo1]

FWIW I have been both bold/fearless and fearful in my time as a rider - including whilst I was interested in and participating in eventing training and competing. Some people deal with fear by being aggressive, internalising their fear, being difficult to deal with; I think we have all seen those responses. Some people need a 'tough love' coach, others need something gentler and more progressive. For every situation there is a 'perfect' response though we don't always find that. The thing I have seen, undoubtedly, and which is increasingly legitimised (and in fact, capitalised on in my view) is the increase in fearfulness, of lack of conviction and of lack of desire and tools to move away from that position. Yet fear is the thing that we should not take to our horses; it's not fair on them and potentially dangerous to us. Fear is something that people need to talk about and find strategies to deal with but it IS more of an issue in equestrianism than it has been previously. I understand feeling frightened or lacking in confidence but it is on another level in the kind of culture we have where 'confidence' is commoditised rather than dealt with internally, emotionally and on a personal level.

The best advice, that which I have found life-changing in terms of horsemanship, has been to own my fearfulness, deal with it and never to put that on a horse or another person. That is just me and I have found coaching really helpful in lots of ways, as I have found working progressively to be useful but neither coaching nor working methods address the fundamental issue that horsemanship needs our internal confidence to have real integrity and not be reliant on 'conditions' or tack, or unshakeable routines, familiar obstacles or the minute by minute advice from a coach. Those are the things that I see being commoditised and which I think hamper riders' development. It's not unsurprising that there are many people who are happy to keep riders in a state of learned helplessness to a degree - many of them are genuinely trying to address issues of confidence but in my view (possibly alone!!) that is not the key.

I think it is complicated at the same time as being quite simple!! As a culture we are far more risk averse, fearful and willing to pin our hopes on external help but the attitudes we have toward risk or challenge have to be developed internally and I don't think there are many coaches doing that. Or perhaps doing it well.

 

[HashRouge]

Again - not attacking this. But it’s all fact and it’s all having an impact on the way equestrian events are run.

I don't know, you keep saying this but it still feels like this thread has turned into an excuse to slag off nervous riders. I still don't fully understand how the nervous nellies who are content to pop round a 50/60cm hunter trial can be having any impact further up the eventing levels. I'm also not convinced that people are "wetter" (hate that word ) - surely it's just that people who are less confident are now given the encouragement to continue and/or the opportunities to compete at a lower level, whereas previously they wouldn't have been and might have given up or stuck to hacking?

You keep mentioning that more events are run on a surface these days, but doesn't that just reflect the fact that it is now extremely common for equestrian centres to have multiple indoor and outdoor arenas, that they might as well use? Whereas in the past, grass was the only option. You can understand why they'd rather make use of their surfaced arenas, especially if the ground is wet and might be easily churned up. The local shows near me are generally still on grass and always get lots of entries (including jumping). But they also have to cancel if it is too wet or risk trashing the ground...

ETA I also don't see how sitting around moaning about the nervous nellies is going to help. Somewhere along the way someone decided that there was money to be made out of 50/60/70cm events, so these are not going away. Complaining about it or expressing your surprise that anyone could possibly enjoy competing at such a low level is not going to help solve the problems that BE has for those of you competing at higher levels. I genuinely don't understand how someone wanting to pop round a 70cm course on their little cob has any bearing on the fact that there aren't enough entries at somewhere like Cholmondeley.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Palo1 I’d agree confidence is fundamentally a choice! As in it’s a mindset you can choose to learn if you want to.

 

[Patterdale]

It’s not a pop at nervous riders, it’s a pop at a societal system that encourages and enables extreme nerves and risk aversion as a normal and acceptable state of everyday life.

I’m not typing it out fully again, if you frame it as an attack on nervous riders then I don’t think you can have read my post(s) properly.

 

[RachelFerd]

Yes there’s that too. Riding XC is fun! Some people have no desire at all to jump big. They just enjoy it at whatever level they are happy with. What on earth is wrong with that? The idea that there is ‘no point’ only jumping 60cm is bizarre. There’s no point to any of it as all sport is fundamentally pointless. So we all do it for our own individual reasons: some are ambitious/competitive, some want to have fun well within their ability.

Another controversial point of view from me... Is that it is all very well jumping little fences if horse and rider are safe and happy. But often riders are overmounted on well bred athletic horses - and these horses do not learn to jump safely and well over tiny fences. Tiny fences act like trip rails, and ridden at speed, become frighteningly dangerous. Having spent years training their horses to jump with poor technique over small fences, the path to then move up to 80/90/100 becomes more dangerous, not less.

I actually spend a lot of time trotting at tiny jumps as a training exercise (Lucinda green calls it 'floppy jumping') as it's a switching off exercise for my buzzy youngster. But it's part of a training approach, I don't really understand it as the final destination. If it was all I did, he'd never actually learn to make a shape, snap up his front legs and jump successfully.

Anyway - so long as everyone's safe, that's the main thing.

 

[palo1]

Palo1 I’d agree confidence is fundamentally a choice! As in it’s a mindset you can choose to learn if you want to.

Yes and there are different ways to get there. What I find really concerning is the way that fear is kind of 'accepted' or legitimised now when for aeons we have known that fear and horses are a bad mix. For me, it simply isn't fair on a horse to take that fear with you. I don't think it matters what you are doing; just walking, working in hand, having horses as field pets, competing at 40 or 50cm - fear/nervousness/lack of emotional stability and confidence are really negative things for horses to deal with. Years ago I had a lovely young horse that was pretty sharp; I was definitely a bit intimidated if not actively fearful of starting him and riding him. I had some brilliant, straight up advice about that and decided, in a transformative moment that whatever I did with that horse, it had to have emotional integrity; that he would not have to deal with my fear - even if that only meant I could do very little with him. Of course, that young horse had no idea what he 'should' have been doing so he didn't mind at all and we made great progress in the end - he was a bit of a devil but I had made the shift away from fear mitigation as it were so we had a good partnership in learning, I always felt confident and happy in what I was doing with him and he never (well, almost never!) had to deal with my negative emotional state. I achieved more with that mindset than I ever would have believed possible and I am really grateful for that but it means I can see how others feel and react sometimes in a way that really isn't going to help them develop and achieve stuff. I know other folk know this too!!

 

[Ambers Echo]

Yes I agree which is why firing a scared rider at a fence with a 'bloody get on with it' attitude is not fair on horse or rider. And is dangeorus because at the last minute fear takes over and you go into 'freeze' mode and you take your leg off or whatever and ride passively.

To me confidence coaching (sport psychology) is nothing to do with patting riders on the head and saying 'bless, just keep jumps small then'. That is patronising and unhelpful. But nor is it just about a 'get a grip' message. Confidence coaching is about helping a person manage their nerves (biology) and cultivate a positive, focused mindset (psychology) that allows them to access their skills and ride effectively and achieve success - ie learn/make progress. In what you are doing, in how well you are riding and in how confident you are feeling. In the end the only way you really feel good over fences is by having good experiences over fences so any coach legitimising fear as a normal end state rather than an issue to overcome, or keeping people in learned helplessness is not really doing much good for the rider

 

[RachelFerd]

Yes and there are different ways to get there. What I find really concerning is the way that fear is kind of 'accepted' or legitimised now when for aeons we have known that fear and horses are a bad mix. For me, it simply isn't fair on a horse to take that fear with you. I don't think it matters what you are doing; just walking, working in hand, having horses as field pets, competing at 40 or 50cm - fear/nervousness/lack of emotional stability and confidence are really negative things for horses to deal with. Years ago I had a lovely young horse that was pretty sharp; I was definitely a bit intimidated if not actively fearful of starting him and riding him. I had some brilliant, straight up advice about that and decided, in a transformative moment that whatever I did with that horse, it had to have emotional integrity; that he would not have to deal with my fear - even if that only meant I could do very little with him. Of course, that young horse had no idea what he 'should' have been doing so he didn't mind at all and we made great progress in the end - he was a bit of a devil but I had made the shift away from fear mitigation as it were so we had a good partnership in learning, I always felt confident and happy in what I was doing with him and he never (well, almost never!) had to deal with my negative emotional state. I achieved more with that mindset than I ever would have believed possible and I am really grateful for that but it means I can see how others feel and react sometimes in a way that really isn't going to help them develop and achieve stuff. I know other folk know this too!!

Trying to watch luhmuhlen as I write this - so probably not going to articulate it well. But I think it was milliepops on here that said "it's never the horses fault when a competition goes wrong, because they didn't choose to be there" - but for me this is the crux of some of the issues at play. The rush to compete instead of continuing to train, because the small competitions are there. For me, competition is the thing you so once, and ONLY once you think you've done all of the necessary training. And what I've found, as my training has got a bit better, is that I now feel far more confident when I compete, because I know I've been more thorough about the training. Competing stops being scary and frightening if you know you've done all of the right training and that your horse understands how to answer all of the questions at a level. So I think the rush to compete creates fear - whereas competition should just be something you do to test and confirm your training. And training is the fun process that you do because you love it.

When you're actively really frightened, I think that's symptomatic of major parts of training of horse or rider are missing - and relationship of horse and rider is not ready to be tested. A sense of being continually in a state of fear shouldn't be accepted - it's common but has to be resolved, not allowed to continue and fester away...

 

[Ambers Echo]

When you're actively really frightened, I think that's symptomatic of major parts of training of horse or rider are missing - and relationship of horse and rider is not ready to be tested. A sense of being continually in a state of fear shouldn't be accepted - it's common but has to be resolved, not allowed to continue and fester away...

Sometimes but not always. At the camps there are occasionally partnerhsips that are just not ready to be doing what they want to do. Their fear is not irrational, and I am always very frank about that. But that is rare. Most people who are truly frightened have ridden to a high level in the past and have lost their nerve through accidents or near misses. Nothing wrong with their skills or training. They have often spent thousands on lessons/training. The missing link is their own mindset.

 

[RachelFerd]

Sometimes but not always. At the camps there are occasionally partnerhsips that are just not ready to be doing what they want to do. Their fear is not irrational, and I am always very frank about that. But that is rare. Most people who are truly frightened have ridden to a high level in the past and have lost their nerve through accidents or near misses. Nothing wrong with their skills or training. They have often spent thousands on lessons/training. The missing link is their own mindset.

Yes, but my point is, the horse/rider relationship is not in a functionally good place if rider is terrified. So why compete until you've got the jigsaw pieces back in place? Because it's not fun for horse or rider if you're pushing to compete - even at tiny heights - if rider is actively frightened (which is different to a few normal buzzy nerves).

 

[TPO]

Along the same sort of lines though everyone has to "be kind". Sometimes the truth isn't particularly kind or palatable.

I remember a load of CR HHOers left here and went to Twitter Eventing on FB. They were very experienced and decent people. They posted concerns, not in a nasty way, about videos and photos of combinations who were dangerous and worrying and were shouted down that the page was *only* to be supportive and encouraging. Needless to say it didn't take long for the posters who knew what they were talking about to scarper leaving the place as an echo tunnel.

I don't have a dog in the fight but I have eyes. I see so many pictures and videos, as well as RL, of horrendously bad (& cruel imo. Riders hanging off strapped shut mouths while gripping up with spur clad legs) to an avalanche of well dones and praise. Even on here there's been "funny" videos of riders left behind over fences, "oops" isn't funny when it's the poor horses mouth, nose and back constantly taking the brunt of it because they don't improve. I'm not saying that rubbish riders should be lambasted on SM but there's been a failing somewhere along the line that they think they are capable and as long as they get around the course all well.

I've read and heard so much of people saying that straight talking is cruel and if they want to event then they will.

The amount of riders "eventing" who don't have any balance or and independent seat, can't/couldn't ride without stirrups or reins, can't/couldn't even do pole exercises and influence/control canter strides, create and keep rhythm, Heck even do 2 point position. But its their right (entitlement) to event...

Thats why I think that BE should be "policing" lower levels far stronger than they are. If safety and training are priorities then there is a serious lapse.

Sure folk might not like that and toddle off to unaff (which isn't the free for all that is implied on here) but id they want the "prestige" of calling themselves an eventer every 5mins then they would need to crack into BE.

There's no motivation to improve or be good enough for your chosen level because people now act like they are entitled to do what they want on whatever their money can buy.

 

[Red-1]

Yes and there are different ways to get there. What I find really concerning is the way that fear is kind of 'accepted' or legitimised now when for aeons we have known that fear and horses are a bad mix. For me, it simply isn't fair on a horse to take that fear with you. I don't think it matters what you are doing; just walking, working in hand, having horses as field pets, competing at 40 or 50cm - fear/nervousness/lack of emotional stability and confidence are really negative things for horses to deal with. Years ago I had a lovely young horse that was pretty sharp; I was definitely a bit intimidated if not actively fearful of starting him and riding him. I had some brilliant, straight up advice about that and decided, in a transformative moment that whatever I did with that horse, it had to have emotional integrity; that he would not have to deal with my fear - even if that only meant I could do very little with him. Of course, that young horse had no idea what he 'should' have been doing so he didn't mind at all and we made great progress in the end - he was a bit of a devil but I had made the shift away from fear mitigation as it were so we had a good partnership in learning, I always felt confident and happy in what I was doing with him and he never (well, almost never!) had to deal with my negative emotional state. I achieved more with that mindset than I ever would have believed possible and I am really grateful for that but it means I can see how others feel and react sometimes in a way that really isn't going to help them develop and achieve stuff. I know other folk know this too!!

And this is where my confidence coaching focused. To backtrack to find the place where people WERE confident. Then work a step at a time, towards to goal, but staying within the buzzy excitement zone rather than the frightened zone.

I could always remember, when I was at the top of my game, that people would say how confident I was. And I was, I did stacks of 'stuff' including new stuff such as cutting in America. But I wasn't confident in the way they thought, I was just confident to confidently say what I was confident to do and what I was not. Nothing was scary as I was confident to say that yes, I would do this, or no, I would not do that. I

Sometimes but not always. At the camps there are occasionally partnerhsips that are just not ready to be doing what they want to do. Their fear is not irrational, and I am always very frank about that. But that is rare. Most people who are truly frightened have ridden to a high level in the past and have lost their nerve through accidents or near misses. Nothing wrong with their skills or training. They have often spent thousands on lessons/training. The missing link is their own mindset.

That was a trap that I was in, so I think that I have some perspective on a possible reason for this. I knew what it 'should' feel like, yet I was no longer the same rider. I could feel the deficiencies. Other people could see that I had the skills and knowledge and would press me to do more. In my case, I applied my own confidence coaching philosophy and drew right back to where I did feel safe, in my case it was old Rigsby cob, where I even started with months of in hand walking. I have kept things to the happy buzzy stage, got him out and about. Then, I regained my confidence to dare to state what I would confidently do and what I would not. Suddenly, I was confident to buy a 4yo, unseen, from Ireland. I was confident that I would only do what I was confident to do...

We are progressing nicely, at my pace. Not making the horse pay for any past ghosts. TBH, I think my concerns were all legitimate. I had lost core strength, an eye for a stride, was stodgy in my riding. I was genuinely at risk. Last XC schooling session, we upped the game and baby horse put in some green balloon jumps. I was ecstatic as I could sit with him. Second jumps were always good, but I needed match practice to be able to sit the first wobbly balloon jumps to start with.

I am deeply happy to be able to declare that I would, right now, be delighted to do a 50cm hunter trial. That is confidence. TBH, at the moment, my own confidence has built quicker than baby horse's ability. I am fighting having trainers who think we should be doing more, as we look, externally, good. I am now confident that I know my own horse. I am personally ready for an 80cm hunter trial. Not big compared to where I was, but I am confident that this is where I am at, personally, now. The horse, however, needs more time trotting or steady cantering to many small fences, so he feels confident enough not to balloon. 50cm would be fantastic.

I have been doing the weekend threads, it is obvious that we have been making progression. Even if that progression is at my pace, nit the pace that some trainers think it should be.

Generally, I found that my confidence clients had a genuine reason the be scared. Often the horse was in pain, even if presenting as 'sound' and that makes them give off an electric (how I feel it) unpredictability. Sometimes they were, indeed, simply over horsed. Often, when people are no longer as good as they were, they need time to re-gage what their abilities are. Re build. If they are simply out of practice they need to start low risk to get fitness back and brush up technique. If they had a one off accident, it can shake your belief that you had accurately risk assessed. In that case you can need to go on a quest to find the hole in your knowledge. Or, just build back up to appreciate that sometimes Sh%t happens. Sometimes it is external stresses (non horse related) that mean you are like trigger stacking, at the limits of your risk. In that case, just ticking over until life catches up is good, but doing it mindfully and without guilt. Knowing why you feel as you do is helpful to be confident that you know the cause and have a plan.

 

[milliepops]

Yes, but my point is, the horse/rider relationship is not in a functionally good place if rider is terrified. So why compete until you've got the jigsaw pieces back in place? Because it's not fun for horse or rider if you're pushing to compete - even at tiny heights - if rider is actively frightened (which is different to a few normal buzzy nerves).

I agree with this. In some ways this is me at the moment. I have mostly had shitty horses to ride for years now and whereas in the past i was a "get on anything" person, the combination of years of battling away with mostly unrewarding riding, broken horses and increased responsibilities in my "home" life meaning i can't afford to get injured, have left me a bit... yes, wet, for want of a better word.

My current ride is another challenge, sharp, silly and athletic. Training and plugging away at home is the place to deal with that and when we get to the point where horse and I are ready to compete we will be ready to come out at medium by that point. I'm not going to put either of us through walk and trot tests NOW, the foundations aren't solid enough between us to deal with any additional pressures.

Part of this issue may boil back down to a sort of instant gratification culture though where people just want to get out competing because the reality of training until you are "better" (in whatever form that is) is hard, sometimes not very fun at all and can take a long time. Though i know people will say that there are lots of people who aren't interested in improving particularly and just want to enjoy their horses... i know i am definitely on the constant self improvement side of the fence which colours my view of things. I think i have gravitated towards my personal standpoint because i've never been able to buy an enjoyable horse!!

 

[Ambers Echo]

Yes, but my point is, the horse/rider relationship is not in a functionally good place if rider is terrified. So why compete until you've got the jigsaw pieces back in place? Because it's not fun for horse or rider if you're pushing to compete - even at tiny heights - if rider is actively frightened (which is different to a few normal buzzy nerves).

Sorry I did not realise you were takling abouty competing. I agree, scared riders should not be competing. Unless they are perfectly capable but just fall apart in competition, Which happens in all sports at all levels and is a different problem again.

 

[Red-1]

I agree with this. In some ways this is me at the moment. I have mostly had shitty horses to ride for years now and whereas in the past i was a "get on anything" person, the combination of years of battling away with mostly unrewarding riding, broken horses and increased responsibilities in my "home" life meaning i can't afford to get injured, have left me a bit... yes, wet, for want of a better word.

My current ride is another challenge, sharp, silly and athletic. Training and plugging away at home is the place to deal with that and when we get to the point where horse and I are ready to compete we will be ready to come out at medium by that point. I'm not going to put either of us through walk and trot tests NOW, the foundations aren't solid enough between us to deal with any additional pressures.

Part of this issue may boil back down to a sort of instant gratification culture though where people just want to get out competing because the reality of training until you are "better" (in whatever form that is) is hard, sometimes not very fun at all and can take a long time. Though i know people will say that there are lots of people who aren't interested in improving particularly and just want to enjoy their horses... i know i am definitely on the constant self improvement side of the fence which colours my view of things. I think i have gravitated towards my personal standpoint because i've never been able to buy an enjoyable horse!!

I have had horses like this, where I haven't gone SJ until we are at discovery, or starting dressage at Novice (more to hold their attention anyway), or first XC competition experience has been at BE 90. They have tended to be the more athletic, sharp animals. My current one is more docile. It feels like we don't need to be better prepared to go out having fun. He is learning more by having many little experiences. Horses for courses, I guess. Current one just needs to come out of his shell a little, I don't need as much submission or sharpness to the aids.

We have, so far, enjoyed 2 intro tests and a prelim. And one SJ clear round at 40cm! The 40cm clear round was great., We had been training mainly at 60cm, but at the actual show he went into his shell a little and broke to trot a few times so he had time for a look. A 50cm hunter trial would be great, for him. With the sharper, more athletic horses of my youth, it would not have been so successful.

 

[RachelFerd]

I agree with this. In some ways this is me at the moment. I have mostly had shitty horses to ride for years now and whereas in the past i was a "get on anything" person, the combination of years of battling away with mostly unrewarding riding, broken horses and increased responsibilities in my "home" life meaning i can't afford to get injured, have left me a bit... yes, wet, for want of a better word.

My current ride is another challenge, sharp, silly and athletic. Training and plugging away at home is the place to deal with that and when we get to the point where horse and I are ready to compete we will be ready to come out at medium by that point. I'm not going to put either of us through walk and trot tests NOW, the foundations aren't solid enough between us to deal with any additional pressures.

Part of this issue may boil back down to a sort of instant gratification culture though where people just want to get out competing because the reality of training until you are "better" (in whatever form that is) is hard, sometimes not very fun at all and can take a long time. Though i know people will say that there are lots of people who aren't interested in improving particularly and just want to enjoy their horses... i know i am definitely on the constant self improvement side of the fence which colours my view of things. I think i have gravitated towards my personal standpoint because i've never been able to buy an enjoyable horse!!

I think where I'd be happy for this all to land, is a reduced competition calendar for all disciplines and a move towards a training culture, not a compete, compete, compete culture. My view is still that there's no real role for unaffiliated competitions, unless they're running as hybrid training/competition experiences. When it comes to eventing, I think a slightly smaller and selective set of events combined with MORE local training and non-competitive training events should be the correct - more horse friendly - route.

Your comments re. starting at medium make sense (not that I've ever managed to ride a Dr tes at that level...) Because, actually, to have built the skills and relationship required to ride a sharp horse confidently in a competition environment, of course your training should have accelerated well beyond walk+trot or prelim tests.

 

[Red-1]

I think you’ve missed the point a bit. I certainly don’t think that all XC coaches are rubbish or that everyone will be able to do it if they’re told to get on with it. That’s not what I said at all.

.

I was reponding to this part of your post...

Lots of people would do much better just getting a grip, and the confidence coach brigade is in my view a large contributory factor to the dumbing down of the sport. Which is not a good thing.

I was illustrating that there are good and bad confidence coaches, as there are good and bad XC coaches.

I believe that lumping everyone into a 'brigade' is unhelpful.

 

[Red-1]

I think where I'd be happy for this all to land, is a reduced competition calendar for all disciplines and a move towards a training culture, not a compete, compete, compete culture. My view is still that there's no real role for unaffiliated competitions, unless they're running as hybrid training/competition experiences. When it comes to eventing, I think a slightly smaller and selective set of events combined with MORE local training and non-competitive training events should be the correct - more horse friendly - route.

Your comments re. starting at medium make sense (not that I've ever managed to ride a Dr tes at that level...) Because, actually, to have built the skills and relationship required to ride a sharp horse confidently in a competition environment, of course your training should have accelerated well beyond walk+trot or prelim tests.

I guess that is dependent on how you view competitions. Even when doing BE Novice, I rode each one as a training event as well as a competition. For me, it is all about improving the horse at every outing cpmpetition or not.

I like competitions as

1. I like the social.
2. I can get complacent at home and like to go to an external competition to ride a set of circumstances that I didn't set up for personal success. I like that it calls me out on my complacency and it keeps me real.
3. I like the photos.
4. I like to be part of something.
5. Success is sweet.

 

[palo1]

I think where I'd be happy for this all to land, is a reduced competition calendar for all disciplines and a move towards a training culture, not a compete, compete, compete culture. My view is still that there's no real role for unaffiliated competitions, unless they're running as hybrid training/competition experiences. When it comes to eventing, I think a slightly smaller and selective set of events combined with MORE local training and non-competitive training events should be the correct - more horse friendly - route.

Your comments re. starting at medium make sense (not that I've ever managed to ride a Dr tes at that level...) Because, actually, to have built the skills and relationship required to ride a sharp horse confidently in a competition environment, of course your training should have accelerated well beyond walk+trot or prelim tests.

Yes, I couldn't agree more with this. It would help to engender a training focus rather than competition focus - which would be advantageous all round. It would be a significant change in our UK equestrian culture though as everyone wants to say they are competing atm. I have even had people describe a fun ride as a 'competition' lol...but that was just silliness. I think...

It makes sense that having very low level comps will encourage people to 'aim' for those when in fact training should be the focus at that point. I think!