So what has British Eventing done wrong?

[RachelFerd]

I realised that Llany had a clash with Solihull UA as well as Aston so possibly very much not helped by scheduling?

It was interesting to look at the eventing scores analysis of Llany compared to Aston. Llany had ~ 70% clear xc, Aston had ~ 90%. So is it also another where softer tracks are being favoured? Maybe exacerbated by the cancellation of events and interruption of preparation?

Is it even right that events are getting 90% clear xc? Does it mean that the courses are too soft?

The Aston courses are soft - and that's why all the pros use it as the first novice and the first intermediate run for horses - it fulfills a useful purpose (and I was under strict instructions that it was where I was to go for our first int run for that reason). It's very useful to exist as a stepping stone, but it's not where you're going to prep for the next level up as a final run. We just need the full range of courses to exist so that we have the luxury of being able to pick the most appropriate thing for our horses and any given time.

I think llany's clear rates do suffer from the fact it's mainly amateurs, but the waters do ride stronger than they walk.

 

[RachelFerd]

Ah that's good - I stand corrected - don't believe the FB stuff! Their insurance wasn't originally advertised on the BE event listing.

 

[Squeak]

The Aston courses are soft - and that's why all the pros use it as the first novice and the first intermediate run for horses - it fulfills a useful purpose (and I was under strict instructions that it was where I was to go for our first int run for that reason). It's very useful to exist as a stepping stone, but it's not where you're going to prep for the next level up as a final run. We just need the full range of courses to exist so that we have the luxury of being able to pick the most appropriate thing for our horses and any given time.

I think llany's clear rates do suffer from the fact it's mainly amateurs, but the waters do ride stronger than they walk.

That is true, I agree it is key to have a range. I was surprised by the problems that the water caused, it did look very inconspicuous when walked!

 

[RachelFerd]

And, unbelievably, another one bites the dust - Rockingham cancelled. Gutted.

 

[millitiger]

And, unbelievably, another one bites the dust - Rockingham cancelled. Gutted.

Couldn't believe it when I just saw that on Facebook.
Also looking at their schedule only a 15% refund expected which must be pretty galling particularly if you entered an FEI class in the last few days as entries remained open...

 

[RachelFerd]

Couldn't believe it when I just saw that on Facebook.
Also looking at their schedule only a 15% refund expected which must be pretty galling particularly if you entered an FEI class in the last few days as entries remained open...

Just rather hard to believe that the ground isn't usable - it's been so dry for the last week with plenty of sunshine, and the forecast for the weekend is great. Was going to be our last novice run (as horse is already into intermediate points, but wasn't before the ballot date)... oh well, onwards to Catton Park for him - he's getting used to having a month between runs

 

[Tiddlypom]

Rockingham seems to have been called off by BE and FEI officials on the grounds of safety, not by the organisers. It's a nightmare all round.

Rockingham International Horse Trials 2023 Cancelled
Rockingham International Horse Trials 2023 has been cancelled following an inspection by BE and FEI officials. This decision has been made as the ground conditions are not safe for horses and therefore riders. Please treat our team with respect, we are all devastated and working our hardest to organise next steps.

 

[TheMule]

I actually think things are getting a bit ridiculous now. We shouldn’t always be eventing on perfect ground or it might as well become arena eventing.

 

[spacefaer]

I actually think things are getting a bit ridiculous now. We shouldn’t always be eventing on perfect ground or it might as well become arena eventing.

The going at Badminton wasn't perfect and they still ran!

To be fair, a lot of the time, it's not actually about the horses but the ancillary factors that decide whether an event can run. I've posted this a few times now but as a former point to point organiser, we would have had tractors lined up for the car parks, horses that ran well in deep going poised, our wellies on .... But if the ambulance, vet and doctors couldn't drive round the course, we couldn't run.

 

[RachelFerd]

Tweseldown have opened up spaces for N and I horses to run this weekend, and Bicton have scheduled in an extra 2*S next weekend - neither any good for me as they'd be adding an extra 100+ miles onto a journey that was already just over 100 miles - i'm not driving the lorry 220/240 miles for a run. I might add in Alnwick Ford 2* into my plans on an otherwise empty weekend later in June (at "only" 180 miles away...)

 

[ihatework]

I’m actually pretty gobsmacked Rockingham cancelling having had a week of dry mild weather.

 

[ester]

seems it was a BE/FEI decision rather than their own?

 

[teapot]

I’m actually pretty gobsmacked Rockingham cancelling having had a week of dry mild weather.

'Despite a positive drying forecast the site, including the ground for all three phases, has not dried sufficiently to allow the event to proceed in a safe manner and the decision has been made to abandon the event by the BE & FEI officials.

“We are absolutely devasted that this call had to be made,” said Horse Trials organiser, Lizzie Saunders Watson. “But the safety of horses and riders is paramount. We were conscious that the weather was against us and had been taking every precaution we could to enable the event to run.

Guess not dry enough

 

[VRIN]

I read on the BE facebook page that one person had spoken to Rockingham at 9:30pm yesterday and put in an entry and today its cancelled - that seems a bit off as it means they will lose most of their entry and there must have been an awareness that it might not have run..

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I read on the BE facebook page that one person had spoken to Rockingham at 9:30pm yesterday and put in an entry and today its cancelled - that seems a bit off as it means they will lose most of their entry and there must have been an awareness that it might not have run..

It does seem like they were blindsided by the decision from FEI and BE.

 

[RachelFerd]

It does seem like they were blindsided by the decision from FEI and BE.

I do wonder if there's some sting in the tail from a very vocal rider complaint about Chatsworth going ahead and them having a nasty fall and breaking a collar bone... Plus the general optics of the mass withdrawals and retirements. But I'm probably just reading into that. So hard to believe when my canter field has already turned rock hard this week ...

 

[ester]

I saw someone say on fb that a test rider had been round, is that normal?!
Are there always fei/be course inspections or only if they think there might be an issue?

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I do wonder if there's some sting in the tail from a very vocal rider complaint about Chatsworth going ahead and them having a nasty fall and breaking a collar bone... Plus the general optics of the mass withdrawals and retirements. But I'm probably just reading into that. So hard to believe when my canter field has already turned rock hard this week ...

I’ve just seen that post and I think you’re right. 42 of 160 finishing XC and a bad horse fall 3 from home blamed on heavy going - both now the focus of very vocal complaints. I think that rider has a point actually. But surely the solution is to maybe take some of the biggest questions out of XC and lower the height of SJ on the basic that the ground is adding 10-20 cm to everything anyway. Or would that mean it doesn’t ‘count’ as a qualifying run anymore? In which case that could be looked at too? It’s a mess.

 

[asmp]

It’s sad (and a sign of the times) that Rockingham have to ask on the website for people to treat their team with respect over the cancellation.

 

[Patterdale]

It’s a sad sign of the times that no one can cope with deep ground any more.

42 out of 160 finishing XC does not necessarily mean that the ground was dangerous; rather that the riders and horses (who mostly never leave arenas or perfect grass going) no longer have the skill or mindset to ride on anything less than perfect.

THAT is what is dangerous.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I agree testing ground is part of the sport but even so that is a very low number of finishers. 90% plus feels too high. I wonder what the ‘sweet spot’ is for finishers?

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I don't do eventing. Never have. Racing and showing through and through here. So this is an outsiders perspective.

It seems to me that not many people have their horses fit enough for coping with anything other than perfect ground. I know not all horses like all going - same in racing you get quick ground horses, soft ground horses then ploughed field horses. But a bit of variation is good. Is it because they spend all their time on surfaces? Surfaced arenas for flatwork and jumping, going to surfaced gallops to work. Do they not hunt any more?

Gone are the days of dealing with the ground you are served with and suckinh it up. Now it's seems to be all about perfection and if it's not then it's the organisers fault.

The person who fell - should she not have pulled up?

 

[ycbm]

It’s a sad sign of the times that no one can cope with deep ground any more.

42 out of 160 finishing XC does not necessarily mean that the ground was dangerous; rather that the riders and horses (who mostly never leave arenas or perfect grass going) no longer have the skill or mindset to ride on anything less than perfect.

THAT is what is dangerous.

I absolutely agree with both you and Elf that bad ground was coped with in the old days because of how people trained. But it's also because they were more straightforward galloping courses. The technical courses, which now have to exist to produce a clear winner and not make it a dressage competition, look as if they could be genuinely dangerous in bad ground. And the sport can't afford to have people seeing horses die on course if it's to continue.

The sport seems to be at a real crossroads. I feel sorry for anyone who feels as passionate about it now as I used to be. I hope it can find a way through.
.

 

[Red-1]

I absolutely agree with both you and Elf that bad ground was coped with in the old days because of how people trained. But it's also because they were more straightforward galloping courses. The technical courses, which now have to exist to produce a clear winner and not make it a dressage competition, look as if they could be genuinely dangerous in bad ground. And the sport can't afford to have people seeing horses die on course if it's to continue.

The sport seems to be at a real crossroads. I feel sorry for anyone who feels as passionate about it now as I used to be. I hope it can find a way through.
.

I would prefer to go back to the bigger, bolder courses of old. Yes, there could be accidents, yes, horses could fall. But then, at least the horses could work out the problems and had half a chance of the fall not being a complete somersault from not reading the question.

The technicality is tested in SJ, I think XC should be for galloping and jumping. At the moment, it is all about technicality.

I also think a rider has to have responsibility for themselves. They get a chance to walk the actual course, then feel how it is riding. Uf you think the test is unfair, then pull up, for goodness' sake!

 

[RachelFerd]

I would prefer to go back to the bigger, bolder courses of old. Yes, there could be accidents, yes, horses could fall. But then, at least the horses could work out the problems and had half a chance of the fall not being a complete somersault from not reading the question.

The technicality is tested in SJ, I think XC should be for galloping and jumping. At the moment, it is all about technicality.

I also think a rider has to have responsibility for themselves. They get a chance to walk the actual course, then feel how it is riding. Uf you think the test is unfair, then pull up, for goodness' sake!

The horse falls at Chatsworth were at straightforward big and bold fences, not technical ones.

 

[TheMule]

I would prefer to go back to the bigger, bolder courses of old. Yes, there could be accidents, yes, horses could fall. But then, at least the horses could work out the problems and had half a chance of the fall not being a complete somersault from not reading the question.

The technicality is tested in SJ, I think XC should be for galloping and jumping. At the moment, it is all about technicality.

I also think a rider has to have responsibility for themselves. They get a chance to walk the actual course, then feel how it is riding. Uf you think the test is unfair, then pull up, for goodness' sake!

Badminton was much more like an old style course and it made for ugly pictures. Most of the falls/near falls were at straight forward, big fences

Kentucky got it really right this year

 

[LEC]

Sjing has gone up by 10cm - it used to be 1.20m at Badminton until the 2000s. Kentucky was a soft 1.30m and they pinged round. The Worlds was a tough 1.30m and caused a lot of issues.

Badminton was not as technical as normal and the ground had a significant impact. Kitty King fell at a stick pile….. Kentucky was smaller but more technical and had the right visuals but also aided by the ground. Time was also a good influence at Kentucky.

 

[ihatework]

I don't do eventing. Never have. Racing and showing through and through here. So this is an outsiders perspective.

It seems to me that not many people have their horses fit enough for coping with anything other than perfect ground. I know not all horses like all going - same in racing you get quick ground horses, soft ground horses then ploughed field horses. But a bit of variation is good. Is it because they spend all their time on surfaces? Surfaced arenas for flatwork and jumping, going to surfaced gallops to work. Do they not hunt any more?

Gone are the days of dealing with the ground you are served with and suckinh it up. Now it's seems to be all about perfection and if it's not then it's the organisers fault.

The person who fell - should she not have pulled up?

It’s a real combination of things but certainly yes - the training and fittening methods are very different these days. Not because ‘the good old days’ were better and we are doing it all wrong now - but because the sport has changed exponentially - that might be seen as good or bad depending on your POV.

But the sport these days requires a very different horse to be competitive. A horse that is strong in both sj and dr. Long gone are the days of the super xc horses being sufficient.

The training required for Dr/SJ probably takes a bit away from the xc focus. It’s a balancing act. Which isn’t to say people can’t and shouldn’t be doing better.

I also agree last statement- as owners/riders of these horses we have to take personal responsibility. If the preparation, ground, conditions aren’t right we need to be responsible for the decision to run, the acceptance of fault if it doesn’t go to plan, and the importance of continually improving how we train a particular horse to give them the tools to cope better in future.

That said the demands on event horses are very different to racehorses So a direct comparison isn’t always fair

I think a lot of people are now seeing the impact of a dire start to the season and horses underprepared

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

It’s a real combination of things but certainly yes - the training and fittening methods are very different these days. Not because ‘the good old days’ were better and we are doing it all wrong now - but because the sport has changed exponentially - that might be seen as good or bad depending on your POV.

But the sport these days requires a very different horse to be competitive. A horse that is strong in both sj and dr. Long gone are the days of the super xc horses being sufficient.

The training required for Dr/SJ probably takes a bit away from the xc focus. It’s a balancing act. Which isn’t to say people can’t and shouldn’t be doing better.

I also agree last statement- as owners/riders of these horses we have to take personal responsibility. If the preparation, ground, conditions aren’t right we need to be responsible for the decision to run, the acceptance of fault if it doesn’t go to plan, and the importance of continually improving how we train a particular horse to give them the tools to cope better in future.

That said the demands on event horses are very different to racehorses So a direct comparison isn’t always fair

I think a lot of people are now seeing the impact of a dire start to the season and horses underprepared

The only comparison to racing I made was that some horses prefer different types of ground. Obviously pretty much everything else is different.

 

[Red-1]

The horse falls at Chatsworth were at straightforward big and bold fences, not technical ones.

Badminton was much more like an old style course and it made for ugly pictures. Most of the falls/near falls were at straight forward, big fences

Kentucky got it really right this year

It’s a real combination of things but certainly yes - the training and fittening methods are very different these days. Not because ‘the good old days’ were better and we are doing it all wrong now - but because the sport has changed exponentially - that might be seen as good or bad depending on your POV.

But the sport these days requires a very different horse to be competitive. A horse that is strong in both sj and dr. Long gone are the days of the super xc horses being sufficient.

The training required for Dr/SJ probably takes a bit away from the xc focus. It’s a balancing act. Which isn’t to say people can’t and shouldn’t be doing better.

I also agree last statement- as owners/riders of these horses we have to take personal responsibility. If the preparation, ground, conditions aren’t right we need to be responsible for the decision to run, the acceptance of fault if it doesn’t go to plan, and the importance of continually improving how we train a particular horse to give them the tools to cope better in future.

That said the demands on event horses are very different to racehorses So a direct comparison isn’t always fair

I think a lot of people are now seeing the impact of a dire start to the season and horses underprepared

I think IHW has said what I think, really. By changing the test, the training and fittening has also changed, as has the type of horse and focus on schooling.

The falls I saw at Badminton were not rotational. Was the fall at Chatsworth?

I think the changes have taken years, as they would be to return the courses to big and bold XC and technical SJ.